Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

[Mareika]

We want Chakotay to get with Janeway because he's the Leading Man of the show and she's the Leading Lady. That's all. There's no logical reason for it. We just like it when the leads hook up - makes everything neat and tidy.

I NEVER saw it that way. I don`t care if they are leads (Btw. I`m not only a J/Cer, I also like C/7 and C/Kellin or C/Torres. I`m with Kate Mulgrew, who said: "Robert has screen chemistry with every member of my gender.") I saw a deep attraction between Janeway and Chakotay right from the beginning- the moment when he beamed on Voyager and stand in front of her. How they are looking at each other! It was great! And than in the end of Parallax the same. I couldn`t resist. I became a J/Cer. But when Seven joined I wished those two to be together because they are so beautiful together. Sorry, I`m a romantically person

 

[Guy Gardener]

She was holding out for Mark.

Rejecting the crew for 4 years.

"Oh! It's now morally permissible to play with some of you, so we all have four years to make up for! Who's first?" is something Kathryn was never going to say (during season 4).

The crew paired off.

By year 4, it was too late, even if the off-lable crap at the bottom of the barrel was still cruising, because no one wants to wind up making out with Chell at the Christmas party... Although if it'll shut him up, I'd wager it's the only way that that blueman gets laid.

2 more years of grieving and fragility?

Janeway would not have been ready to date until season Seven.

Even the unfukcables had paired off by then.

Doomed.



Kathryn and Mark should have had a hand shake agreement that if either of them did became lost in space or time, that their mutual fidelity would go on pause.

"Sigh".

 

[TheSubCommander]

Well, for me, the thing of it is that there is a real world reason for Janeway not bedding her first officer, or any crew member for that matter. It's called fraternization. In the US military, it is forbidden for a commanding officer to be romantically involved with enlisted at all, or junior officers within their chain of command. It undermines the command structure, and any commanding officer who is a professional, will steer clear even the appearance of it. In business, many companies also have similar policies where executives, directors, and managers are forbidden under penalty of termination to date subordinates. Some companies go as far as to say no coworker can date another coworker. And finally, in education, faculty and staff are forbidden from dating students, in many cases, even former students.

So, I think Janeway not being interested in Chakotay, or any crew member, is simply reflecting reality. I think if Voyager had tried to pair Janeway off with Chakotay or any crew member, it would have just been (as far as characterization goes) unprofessional. In the early seasons, they had the fiance back home thing, that they ended up dropping, but even then, I think there were only one or two instances Janeway was romantic with anyone, and they didn't last long. Also,like I said earlier, I like to think of her as obsessed with getting the ship and crew home, so romance with any crew member is not anywhere on her radar, anyway.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Like me, Ghislaine, you like to get it all out, in the open - not being one to keep anything bottled up, inside. I like how you organised them, here, for easy reference. And I will do my utmost to answer them. One ... by ... one ...

1) A character like Katherine Janeway doesn't need a man by her sides, whether it is Chakotay or whoever it is, to be a better commanding officer or a better person. She carved the life of herself to become who she is, someone mentally strong, exigent but fair, who handles the authority according to her interlocutors and that's why her crew and her peers respect her, wherever they come from DQ or AQ.

When it comes to Janeway being a competent starship Captain, and a woman of integrity and all of that, you're preaching to the choir, here - I assure you. However, I suspect that she did, indeed, need a Man's Love. But I'll try to convince you of it, no longer. You win this round!

2) Starfleet has always been in Janeway's DNA and will be her life until her last breath (I don't know/understand why some authors killed her character or even, changed her in a Q, while I see her die a natural death). And that's totally ok for me because well, it arrives in the real life. Some people live for -and only - their work/passion, their love life is the least of their worries... though, thereafter, some regret - or not - their celibacy/the absence of offspring when they age).
-> of course, it doesn't prevent Janeway to have some human or holographic lovers but nothing rather serious to distract her from her job!

An author killing Janeway off, to make their shitty-assed novel sell at all, is pretty weak stuff. And yes, her job is very important to her and she did it well. I've never posted otherwise. But I do draw the line at holo-lovers. She just needed an adult toy, she never had to resort to taking a leaf out of Harry Kim's book, for momentary satisfaction. There are many toy options, I'm sure, in the 24th century. Some even operate by remote control, that Chakotay could've been revving up, by pushing buttons in his own quarters. "Let's see how she likes ... THIS!!!"

Whirr... buzz! BUZZ! ... Whirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...

3) Finally, the fact that Janeway quickly made understand to Chakotay that, she wasn't interested in him, was rather an opportunity for the latter. The chance to meet the right person, a woman who would engage herself body and soul into an existence by his side but the thing is that Chakotay fell AGAIN into his old ways, by choosing the wrong person (Seven), for the wrong reasons (lust and ego). In the end, he will get dumped (before or after having had the opportunity to sleep with her) because I don't see how it could be otherwise there and besides, even the authors who staged a post-Voyager continuity felt it strongly BUT contrary to them, I see by no means J and C being together -> she was quite clear, in last seasons, about the fact that she saw him as a very good friend and no more. And I guess that Chakotay saw her in the same way at the end, what made incomprehensible his silence about his romance with Seven. I mean, she is not only a loyal and supportive friend but as capitain, she is his direct superior too and for the proper functioning of the crew, it was necessary that she is informed. He is her First Officer and Seven is her Astonomic Officer - even if officially she is a civilian -, .especially after Seven's crisis a while ago, when she made an emotional breakout, which has some harm, eyewitnessed by Janeway, Chakotay and the Doctor. And had still a long way to go before better controlling her emotions.

Kathryn did reject Chakotay, soundly. I've conceded this fact, myself - on many occasions. And he should've just let go of his fantasies about her, I know. But she was there, every day. He worked closely with her. She was always in close proximity and these were the days when women were scarce, in the Delta Quadrant. I know you feel there were plenty of women onboard for him to select from, but ... once their situation was firmly established, women made damn sure that they wouldn't have to do without. They used all of their feminine whiles to attract every available Man on the ship, save for Vorik and Harry Kim. And Chakotay wasn't in his 20's, so he wasn't on their radar, as it were. That left him with his fantasies of Kathryn and whatever he could net from the Delta Quadrant, from time to time. But his haul was often nothing more than the continued hope of finding someone, down the line. Out of desperation, he's even had 2 Borg women, on the show, you know? But I have to hand it to him, when he scored Kellin, She was the only woman he got with who was actually hot. I thought, "Finally! Chakotay's about to get his just desserts." Oh, well ... at least he got right back in the saddle.

As I often said, I would be for ever grateful to Kate Mulgrew for having weighed heavily so that J/C was not made..., even if I know that it has frustrated more than one (I guess that if Jeri Taylor had stayed, the flirtation of the beginning - s1 to s3 - would have ended in a commitment in the finale as seeing as she has created the character of Chakotay and she was the 1st to have has pushed for a J/C romance but she was replaced by Brannon Braga who, with Rick Berman wanted that Janeway be as "inaccessible" as her males colleagues Kirk, Picard, Sisko - even if he ended remarried/father for the 2nd time - and Archer.
-> I remain persuaded that it's better to have no love story that a bad love one, which would appeared forced, like C/7 (even if there too, there are some shippers of this couple), Neelix/Kes, Riker/Troi or some couplings in Shonda Rhimes's productions, like Grey's Anatomy.
A very beautiful friendship between a woman and a man is often more interesting and satisfactory to follow than a romance between these same people, in my opinion.

None of the other Captains were inaccessible, though. Kirk was in and out of alien women, like a Time Square pick-pocket. Picard had several lovers, despite his Advanced Years. Sisko got laid. Archer got women. I know you like how Captain Janeway was chaste on her long voyage, but ... she's the only Captain who ever was. Granted, she was not in her twenties and I would not want to see her in sex scene after sex scene. But, really, she made the Delta Quadrant much harder on herself than it had to be. And that's for certain!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Picard dated a lieutenant under his command.

Must be Kosher?

 

[2takesfrakes]

I NEVER saw it that way. I don`t care if they are leads (Btw. I`m not only a J/Cer, I also like C/7 and C/Kellin or C/Torres. I`m with Kate Mulgrew, who said: "Robert has screen chemistry with every member of my gender.") I saw a deep attraction between Janeway and Chakotay right from the beginning- the moment when he beamed on Voyager and stand in front of her. How they are looking at each other! It was great! And than in the end of Parallax the same. I couldn`t resist. I became a J/Cer. But when Seven joined I wished those two to be together because they are so beautiful together. Sorry, I`m a romantically person

It's good to be a romantic! I am one. And I agree about Robert Beltran's chemistry. He always struck me as the kind of guy that women just love to squeeze up on, like he was a big teddy bear. I see that you were fine with whomever Chakotay might've gotten with, but I would not want to see him ending up with B'Elanna. I can't offer any real reason for it, I just ... I don't think it fits. It doesn't fit. I would've preferred it, actually, if he'd gotten with Kellin. She was - most definitely - the Alpha Hen of Chakotay's harem, however small it might've been.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You have no proof that Kellin didn't 50 first dates Chuckles.

 

[2takesfrakes]

No, sir, I don't ... let's hope she did. He sure could use it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lets say she checked in on her Boyfriend every couple of weeks, I was wondering what would have happened if she'd been on the Ship during the events of Workforce?

Maybe the baddies forgot to monitor Kellin... Or maybe Chakotay and everyone else for got to to rebuild/recover her memories and she's still part of the slave labour force unaware that she is supposed to be someone else, and perplexed that none of her coworkers can remember her name.

Although there's no way that she would have made it through Scientific method.

The baddies would keep forgetting that she's already on several conflicting trials and therapies, and keep adding her to new regimes until there is a fatal conflict.

 

[2takesfrakes]

You bring up some good points. There's a lot to mine from, with a Kellin/Chakotay combination. I've always considered it a lost opportunity.

Picard dated a lieutenant under his command.

Must be Kosher?

Indeed! When Picard does something, you know it's always on the Up End Up.

 

[Nyotarules]

Well, for me, the thing of it is that there is a real world reason for Janeway not bedding her first officer, or any crew member for that matter. It's called fraternization. In the US military, it is forbidden for a commanding officer to be romantically involved with enlisted at all, or junior officers within their chain of command. It undermines the command structure, and any commanding officer who is a professional, will steer clear even the appearance of it. In business, many companies also have similar policies where executives, directors, and managers are forbidden under penalty of termination to date subordinates. Some companies go as far as to say no coworker can date another coworker. And finally, in education, faculty and staff are forbidden from dating students, in many cases, even former students.

So, I think Janeway not being interested in Chakotay, or any crew member, is simply reflecting reality. I think if Voyager had tried to pair Janeway off with Chakotay or any crew member, it would have just been (as far as characterization goes) unprofessional. In the early seasons, they had the fiance back home thing, that they ended up dropping, but even then, I think there were only one or two instances Janeway was romantic with anyone, and they didn't last long. Also,like I said earlier, I like to think of her as obsessed with getting the ship and crew home, so romance with any crew member is not anywhere on her radar, anyway.

For Starfleet to operate on rules based solely on human culture would be 1. Illogical and 2. Terrancentric. In ST ENT Shran's lover who was in his chain of command was killed. The Andorian Imperial guard did not have an issue with 'fraternisation' and chances are due to Vulcan sexual drive they probably had couples on their ships due to the 7 year itch. 24th century Humans might still have that as a personal rulebook (ST DS9, ST TNG show otherwise) but all the other species in the Federation, probably not. Plus if Starfleet wants to send mainly single, sentient beings out for years at a time, then fraternisation rules would need to be flexible. Plus I doubt Janeway was willing to spend the next 70 years living like a nun, that was how long they expected to get home. Even Archer in ST ENT E2 dumped the frat rules for his in universe situation and that was when Starfleet was an Earth fleet.

 

[stardream]

I saw the beginnings of a spark between J/C in the first few seasons but it gradually faded away to...nothing. They were still friends, but I think the break in Scorpion sort of killed it, but that's just my way of looking at it.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I saw the beginnings of a spark between J/C in the first few seasons but it gradually faded away to...nothing. They were still friends, but I think the break in Scorpion sort of killed it, but that's just my way of looking at it.

Yes, I wondered the same thing, if after the events of Scorpion, the trust that Janeway had put in Chakotay in the first seasons, hadn't deeply suffered. As I have often written, Janeway often declared to Chakotay how much she trusted him but in reality, when events became too sensitive and that she needed sound advices, she always turned to Tuvok, her old and loyal friend. Why? Because he was the one who knew her best (even Chakotay eventually recognized that in an episode where Janeway fell in depresssion -> Chakotay has required some help from Tuvok to make her go out from her quarters) and from Janeway's point of view, Tuvok has always tell her the truth, even if it was not good to hear.

What I didn't understand in watching Scorpion, is Chakotay's attitude towards Borgs, whose he has shared the existence for a short time, after a poor landing of his Delta Flyer. I mean, his hatred was almost irrational at the point to (deliberately) disobey Janeway's orders to maintain the deal she has made with Borgs earlier. Besides, he used a lame excuse to break the deal and to eject most of Borgs in the spaces, killing them by the same. I believed by no means in his regrets at the end of the episode! And what about his disdain towards Seven from season 4 to the beginning of season 7 and the away mission where both had work together.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Like me, Ghislaine, you like to get it all out, in the open - not being one to keep anything bottled up, inside. I like how you organised them, here, for easy reference. And I will do my utmost to answer them. One ... by ... one ...

It will be short but I wanted to say that, even if we disagree about this issue, I trully appreciate our exchanges.

When it comes to Janeway being a competent starship Captain, and a woman of integrity and all of that, you're preaching to the choir, here - I assure you. However, I suspect that she did, indeed, need a Man's Love. But I'll try to convince you of it, no longer. You win this round!

I like the fact that for once, producers didn't force us to see a female capitain of a vessel ending with someone at her side, to make her more human... .

Kathryn did reject Chakotay, soundly. I've conceded this fact, myself - on many occasions. And he should've just let go of his fantasies about her, I know. But she was there, every day. He worked closely with her. She was always in close proximity and these were the days when women were scarce, in the Delta Quadrant. I know you feel there were plenty of women onboard for him to select from, but ... once their situation was firmly established, women made damn sure that they wouldn't have to do without. They used all of their feminine whiles to attract every available Man on the ship, save for Vorik and Harry Kim. And Chakotay wasn't in his 20's, so he wasn't on their radar, as it were. That left him with his fantasies of Kathryn and whatever he could net from the Delta Quadrant, from time to time. But his haul was often nothing more than the continued hope of finding someone, down the line. Out of desperation, he's even had 2 Borg women, on the show, you know? But I have to hand it to him, when he scored Kellin, She was the only woman he got with who was actually hot. I thought, "Finally! Chakotay's about to get his just desserts." Oh, well ... at least he got right back in the saddle.

You were right about Chakotay and Kellin. They would have made a nice couple but alas, she was an alien... . A chance that Seven was half Borg, human half!

None of the other Captains were inaccessible, though. Kirk was in and out of alien women, like a Time Square pick-pocket. Picard had several lovers, despite his Advanced Years. Sisko got laid. Archer got women. I know you like how Captain Janeway was chaste on her long voyage, but ... she's the only Captain who ever was. Granted, she was not in her twenties and I would not want to see her in sex scene after sex scene. But, really, she made the Delta Quadrant much harder on herself than it had to be. And that's for certain!

When I used the term of "inaccessible" it was in the sense " to achieve a certain fate", what put them melee compared with the average persons.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I trully appreciate our exchanges.

As do I, Ghislaine.

 

[Voth commando1]

Didn't Janeway have kiss scenes with at least two delta quadrant aliens? Jaffen from workforce and Kashyk from Counterpoint.

I think she did have sexual relations with Jaffen and got pretty antsy over Kashyk but she was a professional.

What's wrong with having a sexually chaste hero or heroine though? Is it the bond syndrome-you have to get laid for fans to cheer for you or will you not be taken seriously as a main character if you don't?

 

[Catarina]

It will be short but I wanted to say that, even if we disagree about this issue, I trully appreciate our exchanges

Ahhh. It is refreshing to see a healthy conversation for a change. (I've spent too much time on Facebook)

 

[2takesfrakes]

Ahhh. It is refreshing to see a healthy conversation for a change. (I've spent too much time on Facebook)

Ghislaine's a sweetheart. She's French, you know.

What's wrong with having a sexually chaste hero or heroine though? Is it the bond syndrome-you have to get laid for fans to cheer for you or will you not be taken seriously as a main character if you don't?

I don't enjoy sex scenes, just because they're usually awkward, to begin with. It's enough for me to show them in bed, in eachother's arms saying shit like, "that was wonderful." To watch them simulating him dry humping her, especially in STAR TREK is kind of crass, actually. I am for nudity, however, if it's presented in a cool way. I hate lazy-arsed, stupid-looking handbra action. To use TNG as a pretend example:

If Troi was in the shower and Reg wouldn't stop pestering her with needs for reassurance over the intercom, that might've been funny. So, you get the eyeful, advance the story and keep it classy, all at the same time. As to the specific question of having our Heroes chaste, or not, they seem more normal, actually, if they're (good-looking, able-bodied people who haven't sworn an oath of celibacy) having an active Sex Life.

 

[Sophie74656]

Like me, Ghislaine, you like to get it all out, in the open - not being one to keep anything bottled up, inside. I like how you organised them, here, for easy reference. And I will do my utmost to answer them. One ... by ... one ...


When it comes to Janeway being a competent starship Captain, and a woman of integrity and all of that, you're preaching to the choir, here - I assure you. However, I suspect that she did, indeed, need a Man's Love. But I'll try to convince you of it, no longer. You win this round!

An author killing Janeway off, to make their shitty-assed novel sell at all, is pretty weak stuff. And yes, her job is very important to her and she did it well. I've never posted otherwise. But I do draw the line at holo-lovers. She just needed an adult toy, she never had to resort to taking a leaf out of Harry Kim's book, for momentary satisfaction. There are many toy options, I'm sure, in the 24th century. Some even operate by remote control, that Chakotay could've been revving up, by pushing buttons in his own quarters. "Let's see how she likes ... THIS!!!"

Whirr... buzz! BUZZ! ... Whirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...

Kathryn did reject Chakotay, soundly. I've conceded this fact, myself - on many occasions. And he should've just let go of his fantasies about her, I know. But she was there, every day. He worked closely with her. She was always in close proximity and these were the days when women were scarce, in the Delta Quadrant. I know you feel there were plenty of women onboard for him to select from, but ... once their situation was firmly established, women made damn sure that they wouldn't have to do without. They used all of their feminine whiles to attract every available Man on the ship, save for Vorik and Harry Kim. And Chakotay wasn't in his 20's, so he wasn't on their radar, as it were. That left him with his fantasies of Kathryn and whatever he could net from the Delta Quadrant, from time to time. But his haul was often nothing more than the continued hope of finding someone, down the line. Out of desperation, he's even had 2 Borg women, on the show, you know? But I have to hand it to him, when he scored Kellin, She was the only woman he got with who was actually hot. I thought, "Finally! Chakotay's about to get his just desserts." Oh, well ... at least he got right back in the saddle.

None of the other Captains were inaccessible, though. Kirk was in and out of alien women, like a Time Square pick-pocket. Picard had several lovers, despite his Advanced Years. Sisko got laid. Archer got women. I know you like how Captain Janeway was chaste on her long voyage, but ... she's the only Captain who ever was. Granted, she was not in her twenties and I would not want to see her in sex scene after sex scene. But, really, she made the Delta Quadrant much harder on herself than it had to be. And that's for certain!

Spoilers for novels...

Janeway was not killed off. She is still in them. I recently finished the most recent novel, she is very much alive.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Ghislaine's a sweetheart. She's French, you know.

You are lovely, 2takesfrakes & Catarina!

I don't enjoy sex scenes, just because they're usually awkward, to begin with. It's enough for me to show them in bed, in eachother's arms saying shit like, "that was wonderful." To watch them simulating him dry humping her, especially in STAR TREK is kind of crass, actually. I am for nudity, however, if it's presented in a cool way. I hate lazy-arsed, stupid-looking handbra action. To use TNG as a pretend example:

Well, if I remember well, only the "art of kiss and hug" were referred (chaste and passionate)! And the only bedroom scenes (characters were just naked in bed) we attended were:

- Chakotay and Kellin in "Unforgettable" (4x22)
- Harry Kim with Libby in Non Sequitur (2x05) then Derran Tal in "The Disease" (5x17)

However, we know that the following people had a sexlife during their journey too :

- Janeway with Michael Sullivan between Fair Haven (6) and Spirit Folk (s7) then with Jaffen in Workforce (s7);
- Paris/Torres right the time they were a couple and thanks to Seven, we learnt that they did it often and loudly;
- Neelix with Kes and later with the female Klingon;
- The Doctor, who had boasted to have had sexual relations in Message in the Bottle (4x14)

I have read that Star Trek had not always been a "family"series.due to topics discussed.