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Jennifer Lien status

Older women are a lot fun, I'm sure ... until a friend sees you with one.
I'm sure she's glad that her mum is getting the classic 2frakes dinner and movie date night combo.

"Older" is not a very precise term.

It's just more comfortable to date people almost your own age because they grew up in the same cultural bubble. Which I suppose is what Seven had going for her, that she was an empty vessel, for whoever the hell wound up as her mate, that he or she was going to have to spend years pouring a zeitgeist into her emptiness. It didn't matter if she dated a dimwit child like Kim or an grizzled old man like Chakotay, she equally didn't understand the world either of them came from, that Seven was going to have to probably adopt, since she was absent from the human universe for two decades.

Although, "comfort" is overrated.
 
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I'm currently rewatching the series from the beginning, which I haven't done in a while (I usually stick to season 4 and on) but the person I'm watching it with has commented several times how much Kes brings Neelix down as a character. Once she leaves Neelix becomes such a better character
 
As for Neelix, if Kes had grown tired of him at the height of his jealousy, in Season 2, I suppose her response would have been justified, but I find it unfair and overly harsh for Kes to drop Neelix in Season 3; but totally in keeping with the darker, more selfish Kes that was emerging by that point.

As for "Darkling" and "Warlord," both depict Kes as enticed and tempted by her dark side, particularly "Darkling." "Darkling" also sets up the idea of Kes wanting to explore a life outside Voyager, of Kes growing apart from her Voyager family, themes logically continued in "The Gift" and "Fury."

But "Darkling" and "Warlord" pale in comparison to "Cold Fire" for establishing a darker Kes. If Kes could be that tempted not just by darkness but by power once, and pull back, it makes all the sense in the world that Kes could be tempted by the same things and fail to pull back later, especially given her different circumstances, away from the crew. "Cold Fire" is the prequel to "Fury" and "Fury" is the sequel to "Cold Fire." They are a set.

As for the question of whether Kes is "damaged" by this development of her character, I suppose it's a matter of personal taste. I don't like my main characters to go down such Faustian roads.
I agree with your comment about a possible break-up between Neelix and Kes in season 2. That would have been logical.

But I see no connection between between "Cold Fire" (my favorite Voyager episode) and that insulting piece of s**t episode in season 6. In "Cold Fire", Kes was tempted by evil forces but thanks to her strong will and because she was a genuine good person she overcame the temptation and manipulations by the evil Tanis and saved the ship at the same time. Later on she told Tuvok that she would never see those dark sides of herself again. And she didn't!

In the insulting s**t episode, we saw a soulless monster which wanted to destroy the ship and kill everyone on board. That monster had no resemblance at all to Kes. It was more like Braga in disguise! :rommie:

In "Warlord", Kes was taken over by an alien entity. That was not her fault, it could have happened to anyone who was near Tieran when his host died, even Naomi Wildman (now that would have been even more interesting).

And what did Kes do wrong in "Darkling? :eek:
I mean, the bad guy in that episode, the one with the bald head was The Doctor, not Kes.
Kes had a crush on Zahir, nothing wrong with that as I can see.
She was thinking about leaving Voyager and travel with Zahir, at least for a while and later return to Voyager. Nothing wrong with that either.
In the end she decided to stay on Voyager withher friends and continue her life there. Nothing wrong there either.
 
I'm currently rewatching the series from the beginning, which I haven't done in a while (I usually stick to season 4 and on) but the person I'm watching it with has commented several times how much Kes brings Neelix down as a character. Once she leaves Neelix becomes such a better character
Yes, he started to impose himself on Samantha Wildman and Naomi Wildman instead. I don't think that was any better.
But I guess that was Kes's fault too. :rolleyes:

And to make things worse, it's raining outside my office now so it will be a wet walk home, I guess that's Kes's fault too.
 
Yes, he started to impose himself on Samantha Wildman and Naomi Wildman instead. I don't think that was any better.
But I guess that was Kes's fault too. :rolleyes:

And to make things worse, it's raining outside my office now so it will be a wet walk home, I guess that's Kes's fault too.
Yes, babysitting and helping a single mother is quite the imposition. Darn that helpful Neelix, what a jerk LOL
:lol::lol:
 
As for Neelix, if Kes had grown tired of him at the height of his jealousy, in Season 2, I suppose her response would have been justified, but I find it unfair and overly harsh for Kes to drop Neelix in Season 3; but totally in keeping with the darker, more selfish Kes that was emerging by that point.

As for "Darkling" and "Warlord," both depict Kes as enticed and tempted by her dark side, particularly "Darkling." "Darkling" also sets up the idea of Kes wanting to explore a life outside Voyager, of Kes growing apart from her Voyager family, themes logically continued in "The Gift" and "Fury."

But "Darkling" and "Warlord" pale in comparison to "Cold Fire" for establishing a darker Kes. If Kes could be that tempted not just by darkness but by power once, and pull back, it makes all the sense in the world that Kes could be tempted by the same things and fail to pull back later, especially given her different circumstances, away from the crew. "Cold Fire" is the prequel to "Fury" and "Fury" is the sequel to "Cold Fire." They are a set.

As for the question of whether Kes is "damaged" by this development of her character, I suppose it's a matter of personal taste. I don't like my main characters to go down such Faustian roads.
I agree with you about the darker side of Kes. I just watched Cold Fire this weekend and in the end she does tell Tuvok that she enjoyed the darkness she felt. Her darker side that comes later does make sense
 
of course. If there were no consequences or ramifications (moral, legal, ethical, other) then it wouldn't really be bad would it?
 
Are you talking about crack? The real world equivalence about what Kes went though in Coldfire was something addictive that got her high, then destroyed her, and destroyed everyone around her, until she checked herself.

So, anything kind of similar to crack, really.

Okay.

One theory I have is that Kes wasn't just setting #### on fire, she was converting "matter" into energy and then feeding herself with that energy.... So if that was their drug, as a species, after being manipulated by the Nacene, maybe that's what destroyed Ocampa?

They ate their own planet.

Which is also a bloody good reason to quarantine them in a box a hundred miles under the surface of the homeworld they ate, if any more of than a couple dozen of them working in convert can roast and eat a planet like it's smores in just days, it's insane to let even one of them off world.

The Ocampa, are an ecological nightmare who given time might earn exemption from the Prime Directive and need to be put down like the dangerous vermin they are.
 
Are you talking about crack? The real world equivalence about what Kes went though in Coldfire was something addictive that got her high, then destroyed her, and destroyed everyone around her, until she checked herself.

So, anything kind of similar to crack, really.

Okay.

One theory I have is that Kes wasn't just setting #### on fire, she was converting "matter" into energy and then feeding herself with that energy.... So if that was their drug, as a species, after being manipulated by the Nacene, maybe that's what destroyed Ocampa?

They ate their own planet.

Which is also a bloody good reason to quarantine them in a box a hundred miles under the surface of the homeworld they ate, if any more of than a couple dozen of them working in convert can roast and eat a planet like it's smores in just days, it's insane to let even one of them off world.

The Ocampa, are an ecological nightmare who given time might earn exemption from the Prime Directive and need to be put down like the dangerous vermin they are.
I actually wasn't referring to drugs specifically, but I get your comparison. That makes perfect sense.

I had my own theory that the reason the Ocampans that lived with Susperia lived longer was because they were taking the life energy from other things. As for their planet, the only thing we know for sure is that there is no rain, and the Caretaker mentioned a debt that can never be repaid. Tuvok assumed the debt was to the Ocampans because they caused the damage to their planet. But this was never really confirmed. So following this "energy vampire" theory the "debt that can never be repaid" may actually be a debt to the rest of the galaxy, keeping the Ocampans confined underground to protect everyone else from them. It would also work with the theory that he was manipulating them, slowly over generations reducing their powers, lowering their numbers by controling their reproduction and such. Makes sense I think.
 
Nucleogenic particles make rain.

Nucleogenic life forms, are those beasties from Equinox.

1. If you could trick the beasties from Equinox into using Ocampa as a toilet, the atmosphere should reintegrate and make rain there possible again.

2. Turn Equinox's enhanced warp drive, or make a new enhanced warp drive with the same technology, into a nucleogenic bomb, which should regenerate Ocampa's biosphere quicklier.

3. What Caretaker's lot actually did, was give Ocampa's nucleogenic particles sentience, so that a thousand years later, Captain Ransom could kill them to return home to the AQ.
 
I actually wasn't referring to drugs specifically, but I get your comparison. That makes perfect sense.

I had my own theory that the reason the Ocampans that lived with Susperia lived longer was because they were taking the life energy from other things. As for their planet, the only thing we know for sure is that there is no rain, and the Caretaker mentioned a debt that can never be repaid. Tuvok assumed the debt was to the Ocampans because they caused the damage to their planet. But this was never really confirmed. So following this "energy vampire" theory the "debt that can never be repaid" may actually be a debt to the rest of the galaxy, keeping the Ocampans confined underground to protect everyone else from them. It would also work with the theory that he was manipulating them, slowly over generations reducing their powers, lowering their numbers by controling their reproduction and such. Makes sense I think.

I've read that somewhere a log time ago. Now where was that? ;)

Anyway, I do find that theory vague to say the least. There is nothing in any episode of Voyager which confirms that.
 
I've read that somewhere a log time ago. Now where was that? ;)

Anyway, I do find that theory vague to say the least. There is nothing in any episode of Voyager which confirms that.
The show originally aired like 20 years ago, I'm sure every theory has been repeatedly talked about on the internet since then.

I could give you my reasons for my theory, with quotes from the episode which I believe back it up...but something tells me it would be a waste of time. You believe your theories and I'll believe mine :bolian:
 
I agree with you about the darker side of Kes. I just watched Cold Fire this weekend and in the end she does tell Tuvok that she enjoyed the darkness she felt. Her darker side that comes later does make sense
Exactly. Specifically, Kes says, "I never want to see that part of myself again," and when Tuvok responds, "To which part are you referring?" she says, "To the part of me which got pleasure from destroying those plants in the Airponics bay. To the part of me that was tempted to go with Tanis. I never realised I had such dark impulses."

Generally, "Cold Fire" is one of the episodes that makes me dislike Kes, but I'll say this to her credit: she takes responsibility for her own dark impulses. She doesn't blame Tanis' "manipulations" as Lynx does above. Nor does she see the episode as a temptation met and overcome. She's naive, but she's not that naive. She says that she never wants to see that part of herself again, not that she never will, and her words are motivated by a fear of what she's learned about herself; a fear that in the light of the events in "Fury" is completely justified.

As for "Warlord," when Tieran speaks to Kes, in her mind, he says that a part of her is attracted by what he has to offer, which I believe, given the evidence of "Cold Fire" and "Fury."

As for "Darkling," Kes is attracted to Zahir because he's selfish and dangerous. Her attraction to Zahir is meant to parallel and resemble the inner darkness the doctor is dealing with in the episode. But the doctor's inner darkness is the result of sloppy, amateur programming on his part. It's a computer bug. Kes' darkness is psychological. And it's what leads her away from Neelix, a kind and thoughtful person with vulnerability, to Zahir, a questionable character. The only good that comes out of it all is that Neelix really does deserve better.
 
I'm not sure that Neelix deserves better. He wouldn't know what to do with 'better.' He'd call Kes pet names, sure enough and he would talk to her gentle and sweet, but come a Man with an eye for beauty and Neelix flies into a blind rage fueled by jealousy. Some jealousy is occasionally cute, I suppose, if she knew he didn't mean it, really. Like if he "accused" her of getting it on with The Doctor, since she's been spending so much time with him, or something like that. Just to use that as a way to remind her that he, Neelix, is still interested. But to fly off the handle when a better looking Man eyeballs her ... no good can come from that. He was afraid that Kes would leave him, probably, because he felt she had reason to.

Even in fictional terms, if a woman stays with a Man, it's only because she so chooses. At any time she can just get up and go, never to return, for every reason ... for no reason. And guilting her back would gain him nothing but deep resentment and a repeat performance. In "Warlords," I was so surprised that Neelix did not try to guilt Kes, or beg Kes to stay, that it leapt me out of the story, honestly. I just didn't believe that was him. Then again, they'd been together for a couple years, by this point ... maybe, he felt in his heart, that this was a long time coming.

Maybe he realised that being with her brought out the worst in him. It made him not like himself, very much, because he knew he was never really natural around her. He was never 'himself,' as it were. He was either kissing her arse ... or acting like a jealous teenager because of her. And Kes' staying with him so long, with a Life so short as hers ... maybe she did feel guilty at the prospect of leaving him, because she owed him her Life. Either way, their relationship was never on an equal footing and neither was getting anything out of it that they couldn't have easily found elsewhere.
 
Exactly. Specifically, Kes says, "I never want to see that part of myself again," and when Tuvok responds, "To which part are you referring?" she says, "To the part of me which got pleasure from destroying those plants in the Airponics bay. To the part of me that was tempted to go with Tanis. I never realised I had such dark impulses."

Generally, "Cold Fire" is one of the episodes that makes me dislike Kes, but I'll say this to her credit: she takes responsibility for her own dark impulses. She doesn't blame Tanis' "manipulations" as Lynx does above. Nor does she see the episode as a temptation met and overcome. She's naive, but she's not that naive. She says that she never wants to see that part of herself again, not that she never will, and her words are motivated by a fear of what she's learned about herself; a fear that in the light of the events in "Fury" is completely justified.

As for "Warlord," when Tieran speaks to Kes, in her mind, he says that a part of her is attracted by what he has to offer, which I believe, given the evidence of "Cold Fire" and "Fury."

As for "Darkling," Kes is attracted to Zahir because he's selfish and dangerous. Her attraction to Zahir is meant to parallel and resemble the inner darkness the doctor is dealing with in the episode. But the doctor's inner darkness is the result of sloppy, amateur programming on his part. It's a computer bug. Kes' darkness is psychological. And it's what leads her away from Neelix, a kind and thoughtful person with vulnerability, to Zahir, a questionable character. The only good that comes out of it all is that Neelix really does deserve better.

I've watched "Cold Fire" many times during those years and I see absolutely nothing which confirms your theories here. Most of it are like "1+1=5" because you want "1+1=5" for some reason. Or to make it clear, you want to make Kes look bad, therefore you twist and turn certain events to make her look bad, although there are no evidence at all there which proves that she's bad.

That is definitely clear in the "Darkling" analyse. I don't find Zahir more selfish than, let's say Neelix or Tom in that matter. And to state that Kes's temporary crush on Zahir as evidence for her "inner darkness" is downright BS if I may say so. I mean, I could easily come up with the same theories about Seven or Janeway as evil, calculating persons by taking one event here and another there and then come up with "proof" of their "inner darkness" like Janeway's habit of going for the ship's self-destruct program as "proof" that she was mean-spirited and suicidal or Seven's search for her hmanity as a facade for her destructive thoughts and total contempt for her crewmates. If I wanted to do that which I won't.

As for "Warlord", Tieran said that kes "was attracted to what she had to offer". Well, Tieran is very reliable and truthful, isn't he?

As for Neelix, I actually like him for many different reasons but as I see it, he did have some mental issues due to events in his past and to make him look like an innocent saint is ridiculous. When it came to Kes, he was possessive, jealous and overbearing and more and less scared her out of their relationship.

I have to quote what 2takesfrakes wrote here:

Maybe he realised that being with her brought out the worst in him. It made him not like himself, very much, because he knew he was never really natural around her. He was never 'himself,' as it were. He was either kissing her arse ... or acting like a jealous teenager because of her. And Kes' staying with him so long, with a Life so short as hers ... maybe she did feel guilty at the prospect of leaving him, because she owed him her Life. Either way, their relationship was never on an equal footing and neither was getting anything out of it that they couldn't have easily found elsewhere.

To be honest, Kes was more tolerant to Neelix than what he deserved.
 
Exactly. Specifically, Kes says, "I never want to see that part of myself again," and when Tuvok responds, "To which part are you referring?" she says, "To the part of me which got pleasure from destroying those plants in the Airponics bay. To the part of me that was tempted to go with Tanis. I never realised I had such dark impulses."

Generally, "Cold Fire" is one of the episodes that makes me dislike Kes, but I'll say this to her credit: she takes responsibility for her own dark impulses. She doesn't blame Tanis' "manipulations" as Lynx does above. Nor does she see the episode as a temptation met and overcome. She's naive, but she's not that naive. She says that she never wants to see that part of herself again, not that she never will, and her words are motivated by a fear of what she's learned about herself; a fear that in the light of the events in "Fury" is completely justified.

As for "Warlord," when Tieran speaks to Kes, in her mind, he says that a part of her is attracted by what he has to offer, which I believe, given the evidence of "Cold Fire" and "Fury."

As for "Darkling," Kes is attracted to Zahir because he's selfish and dangerous. Her attraction to Zahir is meant to parallel and resemble the inner darkness the doctor is dealing with in the episode. But the doctor's inner darkness is the result of sloppy, amateur programming on his part. It's a computer bug. Kes' darkness is psychological. And it's what leads her away from Neelix, a kind and thoughtful person with vulnerability, to Zahir, a questionable character. The only good that comes out of it all is that Neelix really does deserve better.
EXACTLY!!! Also I believe she has an attraction to Zahir because he's the first thing that came around after Neelix. She is incredibly young and naive and I think that's a big part of what makes her go totally dark later
 
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