Jennifer Lien status

[Lynx]

I'm more inclined to believe people who I have had contact with for a long time and who I know are reliable than those who constantly criticizes the character Kes and/or Jennifer Lien on forums.

Since I once worked in the entertainment business, I've also learned that official statements aren't always the truth. There are certain code words to watch out for. Everytime I hear or read the statement "mutual agreement" when someone is leaving a rock band, a TV-series, some entertainment management or some sport managenment, then I cringe because then it's mostly foul play involved.

 

[Lynx]

I also found Neelix lovable and caring. Which is why I found Kes' snapping at him harsh and unprovoked.

I always like it when guests at conventions stay classy and positive in their discussions of their work and their co-workers. In addition to being smart and considerate to their colleagues, such positivity is respectful to the fans and audience, some of whom like episodes that others hate. I'm glad I've never been to a convention and heard a Star Trek actor trash one of my favorite episodes. All of which is to say, whatever complicated facts and feelings went into Jennifer Lien's work on "Fury," I'm glad to hear that she speaks positively about it and about her Voyager experience at conventions.

If you watch all the season 1-3 episodes, you will see that Kes is loveable and caring too, something that actually supports my theory that Tieran had full control over her during the break-up with Neelix.

As for the writers, if they really intended to break up the relationship between Kes and neelix, they could have chosen a better scenario than that one in "Warlord". neelix did have some dark sides too, as his jealousy and his exaggerated over-protection of Kes which could have been used for a more believable break-up scenario.

 

[Sophie74656]

I'm more inclined to believe people who I have had contact with for a long time and who I know are reliable than those who constantly criticizes the character Kes and/or Jennifer Lien on forums.

Since I once worked in the entertainment business, I've also learned that official statements aren't always the truth. There are certain code words to watch out for. Everytime I hear or read the statement "mutual agreement" when someone is leaving a rock band, a TV-series, some entertainment management or some sport managenment, then I cringe because then it's mostly foul play involved.

Are you calling me a liar?
Because I'm not a fan of Kes you don't believe that I saw her say she didn't hate Fury?

Believe whatever you want to believe

 

[Lynx]

Are you calling me a liar?
Because I'm not a fan of Kes you don't believe that I saw her say she didn't hate Fury?

Believe whatever you want to believe

So you are not a fan of Kes?
I could never have guessed!

Anyway, what I know is that she did admit that she was fired at one convention and that her contribution to the insulting episode was that she persuaded the writers to change the end of it.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Kes personifies the Spirit of Star Trek. She loved people, every kind of people and she was fascinated by the Universe she was exploring. Perhaps in part, because of her short lifespan, she made NOW the most important time of all. But more important than any of that, she had such hope, such optimism for the future. And it didn't hurt that she was realised by the beautiful and talented Jennifer Lien. That didn't hurt ...!

 

[KelisThePoet]

If you watch all the season 1-3 episodes, you will see that Kes is loveable and caring too, something that actually supports my theory that Tieran had full control over her during the break-up with Neelix.

In Season 1, Kes was reliably lovable and caring. Then, in Season 2, the writers started exploring the darker side of her personality in "Cold Fire," an episode that foreshadows "Fury" in many ways. Season 3 gave us further steps in Kes' unpleasant transformation: "Warlord" and "Darkling."

Nevertheless, I concur with you that Tieran had full control of Kes when she treated Neelix so shabbily, because even by Season 3, Kes had not become that bad on her own. But if it was Tieran who did the deed, then why didn't Kes undo the damage and resume the relationship with Neelix? The character is irreparably damaged, no matter which theory you support of who was in control.

 

[Triskelion]

It does make sense that they were trying to reinforce Seven's insertion into the troupe by burning bridges with her predecessor. I just never really understood how, storywise, Kes was supposed to have gotten involved in badness in her higher plane of existence, how she would have blamed Voyager for her own decision to leave, or forgotten making that holo-recording. More psychobabble (and technobabble) plot manipulation all around, really. By that time, formulaic writing was de rigeur - and a major reason why Voyager couldn't keep new viewers around after stunts like featuring the Rock.

But let's be honest - they could have gotten rid of the Chakotay, Kim and Neelix characters at that point and replaced them with Lower Decks or Learning Curve characters for a light seasoning - and it would not have upset most following episodes. It's not like they were driving any performances (as a rule). Although Philips could have if he'd had the writing and characterization. He actually brought it as an engaged professional. Can you imagine what the Neelix would have been liked played by Wang or Beltran? "Well, you did die, Ballard. Grandma Beelox would say, shut up and eat your pancakes. There, all better."

Contract acting work is just that. There are no obligations to renew in that line of work, and if you don't realize it you soon will. The needs of the show (ratings) do actually take precedence over individual production elements.

In their defense - it must be a daunting task indeed to have to create an amazing plot every week. Understandable that they would go out on the wrong limb occasionally; instead of erring with "Harry learns a valuable lesson about rumors" Sesame Street plots. At some point you have to pick one of the bad ideas spitballed around the writer's table because you just don't have time for endless hashing out - as later criticism can take all the time in the world.

But yeah, you also have to wonder if they were sometimes vulnerable to groupthink, in things like Neelix's characterization or plots like Fury. Or just...medicated?

 

[φ of π]

If Talaxians has last names, Neelix's would be "Kruger", and his middle name would be "Dunning".

 

[Sophie74656]

Kes personifies the Spirit of Star Trek. She loved people, every kind of people and she was fascinated by the Universe she was exploring. Perhaps in part, because of her short lifespan, she made NOW the most important time of all. But more important than any of that, she had such hope, such optimism for the future. And it didn't hurt that she was realised by the beautiful and talented Jennifer Lien. That didn't hurt ...!

This is what she was supposed to be but wasn't fully realized.

Also all of these characteristics are basic to pretty much every starfleet officer not unique to kes

 

[2takesfrakes]

All I wanted was ... another "Like."

 

[Thomas Eugene]

All I wanted was ... another "Like."

You always hit the nail on the head ... Sir ...

 

[Lynx]

In Season 1, Kes was reliably lovable and caring. Then, in Season 2, the writers started exploring the darker side of her personality in "Cold Fire," an episode that foreshadows "Fury" in many ways. Season 3 gave us further steps in Kes' unpleasant transformation: "Warlord" and "Darkling."

Nevertheless, I concur with you that Tieran had full control of Kes when she treated Neelix so shabbily, because even by Season 3, Kes had not become that bad on her own. But if it was Tieran who did the deed, then why didn't Kes undo the damage and resume the relationship with Neelix? The character is irreparably damaged, no matter which theory you support of who was in control.

I see many flaws in your statement.

I see nothing in "Cold Fire" which in any way foreshadows the s**t episode. On the contrary, in "Cold Fire" Kes is tempted by evil forces. But due to her strength and willpower, she overcomes that temptation and saves the ship at the same time.

In "warlord", her mind was taken over by an evil entity. But she fought that entity all the way and with a little help from her friends, she gets rid of that entity.

And what on Earth did she do wrong in "Darkling"? Dis she control The Doctor or what?

As for the break-up with Neelix, it's all down to bad writing. Braga and his clown gang were never good in writing about relationships, not in TNG and not in Voyager. Everything they wrote became stale and lifeless. In this case they didn't even manage to come up with a decent break-up scenario. Even I could have done that much better. They were the ones with darker sides which they clearly showed when they deliberately gave the finger to the Kes fans with that episode in season 6 and when they insulted the J/C-ers in "Endshame".

As for Neelix himself, he was a nice fellow and I really like him!

But he wasn't always as nice and pleasant. He, if anyone had darker sides, most likely the result of his tragic past. When it came to Kes, he was jealous, over-protecting and overbearing in the worst possible ways. Any normal woman would have got tired of those antics sooner or later.

 

[2takesfrakes]

You always hit the nail on the head ... Sir ...

Do not marvel at my various ways of typing, Thomas. It serves many a purpose. Some obvious. Some not. The main is to entertain myself. It gives me posts personality. I also use keywords to help locate posts I've written more easily and try to fit those into a sentence. Punctuation and use of Capitals are also significant. But these are mostly for my own use ... and reference. Simply take my posts at face value, Sir ... and their meaning will become clear to you.

 

[Guy Gardener]

How many hundred years until every human is marginally descended from the Duggars?

 

[Sophie74656]

How many hundred years until every human is marginally descended from the Duggars?

Not that long. They have 20 kids, if all of them have 20 kids and so on...in like 7 generations there are a billion Duggars

 

[2takesfrakes]

The Baroque composer, J.S. Bach had over 20 children. How many of his direct descendants must exist today, you wonder?

... None, at all.

 

[Sophie74656]

In Season 1, Kes was reliably lovable and caring. Then, in Season 2, the writers started exploring the darker side of her personality in "Cold Fire," an episode that foreshadows "Fury" in many ways. Season 3 gave us further steps in Kes' unpleasant transformation: "Warlord" and "Darkling."

Nevertheless, I concur with you that Tieran had full control of Kes when she treated Neelix so shabbily, because even by Season 3, Kes had not become that bad on her own. But if it was Tieran who did the deed, then why didn't Kes undo the damage and resume the relationship with Neelix? The character is irreparably damaged, no matter which theory you support of who was in control.

I do agree that Cold Fire foreshadows Kes's growth and leads into Warlord, Darkling and Fury. In Cold Fire she gets a good look at how niave she is and how sheltered her upbringing was. She sees that there is more than the 9 years she thinks she has, that there is more to herself and she has more potential. She fell in love with Neelix because he was the first thing that came along and he happene to be nice. But after coming aboard Voyager and especially after Cold Fire she saw how many other options there really are.

But I disagree that the character was damaged. I think it was natural logical character growth between Cold Fire, Warlord, Darkling, The Gift, and Fury.

 

[Lynx]

I see no connection at all between Kes's first three years on Voyager and "The Gift" and the insulting crap episode in season 6.

I agree that a new life for her began the moment she set her foot on Voyager. A total difference from the dull life in the underground caves on the Ocampa planet. On Voyager she was in for excitement and exploring. She got new friends, she started to work with The Doctor, she learned and explored. All that did lead to her and Neelix slowly drifting apart.

But the events in "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" were isolated events. In "Cold Fire" she was tempted by evil forces but she managed to overcome them and actually saved the ship when it was threatened. In "Warlord" her mind was taken over by an evil entity but she fought that entity all the way and was finally liberated from it.

In "Darkling" we actually had the same Kes as we had in the previous seasons. OK, she had a crush on Zahir, nothing wrong with that. However,in the end she decided to stay on the ship with her friends and colleagues which I see as evidence that she liked her life on Voyager, her friends and the continuing adventures on board the ship.

Therefore the two crap episodes in season 4 and 6 has no connection to the other Kes episodes. "The Gift" was just a badly written episode, made just to get rid of the character as soon as possible. A thin unrealistic plot and a story which was so bad that it could have been written during a coffee break or by someone sitting on the toilet.

The insulting piece of crap in season 6 was worse than that. A deliberate insult to the Kes fans with a sick, morbid, totally unrealistic scenario with lot of flaws and mistakes. The only purpose with that crap was to ruin and destroy the character and finally kill her off, which was what they did plan from the beginning.

 

[Sophie74656]

I think there is a clear progression from Cold Fire through Fury. We know that the Caretaker was holding back the Ocampans that were living underground because he considered them children.

In Cold Fire Kes gets a taste of some darkness while exploring her powers and she seems to enjoy it.

In The Gift when her powers go out of control she goes off on her own, without guidance, without knowing what is happening to her, without any help at all. She has nobody to guide her.

In Fury Kes says she was confused after leaving Voyager because she couldn't control what she found with her new abilities. She essentially had to grow up way too fast with no parents, no mentor, no friends. She thought she could go it alone like some cocky runaway, but she was wrong. And what do adolescents and young adults do when confronted by the reality of adult responsibility? They often blame their parents and other authority figures for not having adequately prepared them for the "real world." They forget the helpfulness and kindness of their mentors. It's natural. It happens.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kes was middle aged when she left.

Dementia would be my guess.