Jennifer Lien status

[Sophie74656]

Whatever Sophie decides is happening with Kes & Neelix is what I will finally go along with ...

oh my goodness it's all up to me....

In regards to their ages...When Neelix first meets Kes she is at the most just over a year old since we see her 2nd birthday in the early 2nd season. We don't know much about when Ocampans reach maturity but physically she clearly appeared to be an adult. So as a human comparison that would be probably between 16 and 18. Physically an adult but mentally not really. The Caretaker treated them as children, sheltered them and they didn't know anything about what was beyond their underground cavern. In many ways Kes and all of the Ocampans were naive children.

We never get a clear indication of Neelix's age, but I kind of always put him 40ish based what he's said about his past and all of the different jobs he's held.

I honestly don't think that Neelix ever intentionally manipulated Kes into a relationship, but I do think there was some kind of "manipulation" going on. Neelix saw a young beautiful girl being abused and wanted to help her. Many people would feel sympathy for that. Maybe she reminded him of his dead sister or lover he had before. Kes, coming from underground not knowing anything saw someone from another world, who saw and knew things, who was kind to her, who saved her, and she fell for him. That makes sense too I think. She literally didn't know anything else. So when she did come to Voyager and learn more and become exposed to more cultures it makes sense to me that she would break up with him to try to experience other things.

I think I've said this before, I would have rather seen their relationship be more of a father-daughter one than a romantic one. I think that would have worked better than a 40 year old guy and a 17 year old girl. And as I've said before once they broke up and Kes left I began to like Neelix a lot more as a character, he became much more interesting and had more depth in my opinion.

 

[Sophie74656]

I have actually pointed out several flaws. You take certain events along the road which have no connections at all and fuse them together to make Kes look bad. As for the connection between "Cold Fire" and "The insulting s**t episode in season 6", there were never any plans for such a development. Bringing back Jennifer in season 6 to play the monster in the s**t episode was never any arc or plan, just a stupid whim (or worse) from those in charge. Between "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" there were no mean intentions at all from Kes, she was the same nice and friendly person as she always was. Not to mention that she clearly stated in "Cold Fire" that she never wanted to see those dark sides of her which Tanis tried to summon.

The events in "Warlord" were created by an alien entity who got possesion over Kes's mind and body and pointing out the events in "Darkling" as "evidence" for Kes going bad is actually ridiculous or at least extremely exaggerated. She did nothing wrong in that episode.

As for Zahir, I see him no more irresponsible than what Neelix was before joining the Voyager crew or what Tom was before coming on board Voyager. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with Zahir at all.

As for the other examples I brought up, I just wanted to show how easy it is to come up with the same dark side theories about them as it his coming up with such theories about Kes

You have actually not pointed out any flaws in anyone's argument, just said that people were twisting things because you don't agree with it. That's fine if that's what you believe, but you're not presenting your own argument, just saying that others are wrong because they disagree with you. Again, to each their own

 

[Sophie74656]

I know people have complained about Neelix being a 'pedophile' because of the age difference but has anyone ever accused Tom of that? True, I don't think the age difference was as great (I am amusing Tom was in his early to mid-twentiess) but Kes was still around...two.

Or is Tom given a pass because he and Kes are compatible on the attractive scale? If Neelix had been 'prettier' would it have been alright?

I don't think he was a pedophile since Kes was physically an adult, and personally I don't think his appearance had anything to do with it. But honestly I never saw Neelix as ugly. Tom is also fairly younger than Neelix I think, late 20s and Neelix also seemed to me to be in his 40s

 

[Guy Gardener]

I know people have complained about Neelix being a 'pedophile' because of the age difference but has anyone ever accused Tom of that? True, I don't think the age difference was as great (I am amusing Tom was in his early to mid-twentiess) but Kes was still around...two.

Or is Tom given a pass because he and Kes are compatible on the attractive scale? If Neelix had been 'prettier' would it have been alright?

I call him a paedophile because it's hilarious, and not true.

Lovematching Kes with the century old Tuvok, in Warlord, was nearly three times as creepy, even if Russ "looks" younger than Phillips.

(Tim is one year younger than Ethan.)

 

[2takesfrakes]

I know people have complained about Neelix being a 'pedophile' because of the age difference but has anyone ever accused Tom of that? True, I don't think the age difference was as great (I am amusing Tom was in his early to mid-twentiess) but Kes was still around...two.

Or is Tom given a pass because he and Kes are compatible on the attractive scale? If Neelix had been 'prettier' would it have been alright?

Even though it does not affect their personal lives, The General Public really hates it when celebrities get in relationships with huge age differences. They do NOT want to see it. Show them couples like Tom Cruise & Katie Holmes, or Ashton Kutchner & Demi Moore and the people are going to do their nut. And yes, there are exceptions to that ... when Billybob Thornton scored Angelina Jolie, there wasn't a lot of whinging. I can only suppose it's because she was kinda freaky, already: "Attention on the set! Everyone! Good News: Angelina's brought her urine!" During the 40's, Bogie & Bacall - with a quarter century difference between them - ignited the screen and nobody objected. And yet, in the 50's Desi Arnez and Lucille Ball had an age difference of but 5 years and this caused Desi some concern about popular acceptance. But it worked out, just fine. Still, though ... it's kind of tricky ...

Kes & Neelix were deemed unacceptable together, by fans. Tom and Kes were not. Tom Cruise was a pretty boy, but that cut no ice with the Katie thing. Would a handsome Neelix cut the ice? I venture to say not. But who knows? He's not a monster, but he's not normal, either. He's emotionally stunted, it seems and needlessly insecure. Maybe if he were more in charge of himself, his association with Kes might've played better.

Any problems Tom & Kes might've encountered with Trekkies was mitigated by their disgust at the suggestion that Harry Kim, somehow, knocked up Tom & Kes' daughter. But more than that, I suspect that a knowledgeable Trekkie audience just saw Before & After as a Quantum Leap rip off. So even when Jennifer Lien didn't have plastic glued to her face, fans were kind of trained to imagine that she did, especially when Kes was being all motherly towards her grown daughter. This "aging" might've further brought Kes and Tom onto a more even playing field - even on a subconscious level.

 

[Lynx]

When it comes to age, Neelix was about 30 Earth-years old when he met Kes.
And Kes was equivalent to someone between 17 and 23.
So what'rs wrong? I don't see any problem ith this other than the fact that so many people seem to be age-obsessed.

 

[Sophie74656]

Even though it does not affect their personal lives, The General Public really hates it when celebrities get in relationships with huge age differences. They do NOT want to see it. Show them couples like Tom Cruise & Katie Holmes, or Ashton Kutchner & Demi Moore and the people are going to do their nut. And yes, there are exceptions to that ... when Billybob Thornton scored Angelina Jolie, there wasn't a lot of whinging. I can only suppose it's because she was kinda freaky, already: "Attention on the set! Everyone! Good News: Angelina's brought her urine!" During the 40's, Bogie & Bacall - with a quarter century difference between them - ignited the screen and nobody objected. And yet, in the 50's Desi Arnez and Lucille Ball had an age difference of but 5 years and this caused Desi some concern about popular acceptance. But it worked out, just fine. Still, though ... it's kind of tricky ...

Kes & Neelix were deemed unacceptable together, by fans. Tom and Kes were not. Tom Cruise was a pretty boy, but that cut no ice with the Katie thing. Would a handsome Neelix cut the ice? I venture to say not. But who knows? He's not a monster, but he's not normal, either. He's emotionally stunted, it seems and needlessly insecure. Maybe if he were more in charge of himself, his association with Kes might've played better.

Any problems Tom & Kes might've encountered with Trekkies was mitigated by their disgust at the suggestion that Harry Kim, somehow, knocked up Tom & Kes' daughter. But more than that, I suspect that a knowledgeable Trekkie audience just saw Before & After as a Quantum Leap rip off. So even when Jennifer Lien didn't have plastic glued to her face, fans were kind of trained to imagine that she did, especially when Kes was being all motherly towards her grown daughter. This "aging" might've further brought Kes and Tom onto a more even playing field - even on a subconscious level.

Honestly I never had a huge problem with Harry and Linnis until just recently when this was brought up here. I just kind of ignore that epiosde all together

Something I don't think has been mentioned in regards to Neelix and Kes is how long they've been together. I'm guessing in Caretaker he had only known her for the most a month or two. What kind of love is that? That's still the crazy honeymoon phase where you don't really see each other's flaws and still can't keep your hands off of each other. Though apparently they never actually had sex, I'm sure there was other intimacy.

 

[Sophie74656]

When it comes to age, Neelix was about 30 Earth-years old when he met Kes.
And Kes was equivalent to someone between 17 and 23.
So what'rs wrong? I don't see any problem ith this other than the fact that so many people seem to be age-obsessed.

why do you think he was 30? Nobody said there was anything wrong with Kes's age, just pointing out that there is a big gap

 

[Lynx]

You have actually not pointed out any flaws in anyone's argument, just said that people were twisting things because you don't agree with it. That's fine if that's what you believe, but you're not presenting your own argument, just saying that others are wrong because they disagree with you. Again, to each their own

But I have pointed out the most visible flaws which are that I can see nothing which connects the events in "Cold Fire" with the possible events in "The insulting s**t episode in season 6", I see nothing that even resembles an ongoing arc from "Cold Fire" via "Warlord", "Darkling" to "The insulting s**t episode in season 6" and I see no misbehavior from Kes in "Darkling" either.
I have pointed out that Kes's behavior from "Caretaker" to "Scorpion#2" shows no sign of her going bad except for the events in "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" which were caused by outside factors (Tanis and Tieran) and who Kes fought all the way until she could get rid of them or get help to get rid of them. Otherwise she was the same Kes all the way.
What more can I do?

 

[Lynx]

why do you think he was 30? Nobody said there was anything wrong with Kes's age, just pointing out that there is a big gap

Read "Pathways" by Jeri Taylor where Neelix's life story is described. Then you can estimate his age.
According to Memory Beta, Neelix was born in 2337 which would make Neelix 36 when he met Kes (not 30 as I wrote before, my mistake).
I see no problem with the age gap since I've seen bigger age gaps between Hollywood celebrities and even some people I know.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The Western World does deify youth and beauty. That's true, but it's not new. Nobody's ever wanted the scent of death on them. Nobody wants to be that 40 year old hanging by the bar at the club, so he can hit on 20 somethings as they come up to order their drinks. Sometimes this cultural focus on beauty has encouraged the wrong things, like anorexia and so forth. But, most people fear death. The Golden Years are nothing of the sort, what with the onset of rheumatism and wrinkles. They should be called The Rust Years, actually.

 

[Sophie74656]

Read "Pathways" by Jeri Taylor where Neelix's life story is described. Then you can estimate his age.
According to Memory Beta, Neelix was born in 2337 which would make Neelix 36 when he met Kes (not 30 as I wrote before, my mistake).
I see no problem with the age gap since I've seen bigger age gaps between Hollywood celebrities and even some people I know.

Exactly, there are no canon sources. I imagine his age to be around 40. Either could be correct

 

[Sophie74656]

But I have pointed out the most visible flaws which are that I can see nothing which connects the events in "Cold Fire" with the possible events in "The insulting s**t episode in season 6", I see nothing that even resembles an ongoing arc from "Cold Fire" via "Warlord", "Darkling" to "The insulting s**t episode in season 6" and I see no misbehavior from Kes in "Darkling" either.
I have pointed out that Kes's behavior from "Caretaker" to "Scorpion#2" shows no sign of her going bad except for the events in "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" which were caused by outside factors (Tanis and Tieran) and who Kes fought all the way until she could get rid of them or get help to get rid of them. Otherwise she was the same Kes all the way.
What more can I do?

The only "flaw" you've pointed out is that you don't see a connection that others do. That's not a flaw, just your opinion

 

[Lynx]

The only "flaw" you've pointed out is that you don't see a connection that others do. That's not a flaw, just your opinion

That "connection" is nothing but exaggerated fantasies. It's impossible to see something that doesn't exist.

 

[Sophie74656]

That "connection" is nothing but exaggerated fantasies. It's impossible to see something that doesn't exist.

Once again, that's your opinion. In your opinion there is no connection. Myself and some others do see a connection, that is our opinion. Neither is wrong, neither is correct. Just opinion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Connection" implies effort on the part of Voyager's writing room.

 

[Sophie74656]

"Connection" implies effort on the part of Voyager's writing room.

Well as I love the show and think it was mostly very well written...Yes there is connection

 

[Guy Gardener]

I was giving you an out, where you could both walk away happy, and you spat on me.

 

[Sophie74656]

I was giving you an out, where you could both walk away happy, and you spat on me.

I didn't mean to spit on you, it just seemed like you were saying that there was no effort put in from the writers and I strongly disagree with that

 

[Guy Gardener]

Individual episodes were very good, but any attempt to make a cohesive reaching holistic seven year odyssey was pishaw. The writers room didn't know where they were going and didn't care where they came from.

How they got rid of Neelix, one explanation for that is that the Talaxian life span is actually several thousands years, which is how there was a Talaxian colony 40 thousand light years/40 years away from their homeworld at "conventional" speeds... Which doesn't make hooking up with a one year old any better.