The Original Trilogy Constructive Criticism Thread

[Reverend]

^There was more footage shot of Luke training on Dagobah, including some lightsaber training. I can see why it was cut though as the narrative through-line of Luke's training is on the spiritual and philosophical nature of the force, not how much his form IV stance has improved.
This is not meant to be traditional Jedi training, it's a crash-course in the most vital aspects of the force as Yoda has come to re-evaluate it in his exile. The old ways had become stagnant and overly formalised, which is one of many symptoms of the Jedi's decline. Luke is being trained as a true Jedi, not a warrior or an assassin.

The only real flaw in this sequence IMO is that you don't get a clear sense of the passage of time. It's compounded somewhat by inter-cutting with the Han/Leia plot, which could be taking place over the course of hours or weeks. There's just no way to tell.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree that the editing didn't do it any favors, but my frustration primarily lies with Yoda's comment when Luke leaves and Yoda's comment when Luke's returns. Again, the novel informs this a little bit better, and I think that Sam Witwer's commentary (I keep going back to that because it really sticks in my mind) about what Obi-Wan and Yoda had figured out with regards to training, and giving a quick, crash-course (as you say) intro to it, instead of the longer more traditional route.

That said, the film could have made it just a little bit more clear, but that's me.

 

[LJones41]

Why would Yoda be forced to give Luke quickie training on being a Jedi? Was there a time limitation on preparing him to face Anakin and Palpatine?

 

[Ithekro]

Quickie training to get him up to speed. Yoda basically has to train look in all the stuff he would have learned from a very young age at the temple in order for him to even be able to face Vader with a chance to survive. Yoda can see the future to an extent, clouded as it might be. He would know he doesn't have years or decades to train Luke. He has a year, at the most. Yoda might even have known his time was ending soon.

However Yoda was skeptical about Luke, until the end. As Luke took off for Bespin, Yoda even said, "now matters are worse". Only after Luke returned did Yoda think Luke was ready. I suppose his battle with Vader, and the construction of his own lightsaber was enough to qualify as Luke's trails (via the Prequel defining what a padawan needs to do the become a Jedi) and was thus ready or nearly ready to become a Jedi Knight. He had to face Vader again to pass his last trial. After facing Vader and tossing his lightsaber in the face of the Emperor's temptation, Luke could declare that he was now a Jedi Knight. His trails were over. It was now up to Anakin to fulfill his prophecy.

 

[LJones41]

None of this makes sense to me. I find it hard to accept that it was necessary for Luke to have some "quickie" Jedi training, because he didn't start as a kid. And I do not recall any need for a "time constraint". As for the idea that Luke had to face Anakin and Palpatine as part of his trial, I would say that was all in the minds of Yoda and Obi-Wan, who simply wanted a tool to overcome the Sith.


I am annoyed by one aspect from "A New Hope" - namely Lucas' failure to show Leia's reaction to Alderaan's destruction. We saw her reaction when Tarkin informed that he planned to use the Death Star on her homeworld. But we've never seen her reaction after it happened. We've seen Obi-Wan's reaction. We've seen Leia comfort Luke, while he grieved over Obi-Wan's death. But I've never seen her grieve over Alderaan's destruction. Very odd.

 

[Reverend]

There's a reason why Luke and Leia were sent away and not taken to some out of the way world to be trained from birth. For one thing, they wouldn't have been raised by loving families but by Jedi masters. To rebuild the order they would need to avoid the mistakes of the old order and the dogma that came with it. They needed to be a part of the galaxy they were going to save, not isolated from it.

Not that it would come to that because if Obi-Wan and Yoda started training a pair of Skywalkers the Emperor would have sensed the disturbance very early on and stopped at nothing to hunt them all down. The best they could do was hide them until the time was right and give them the bare minimum training needed to defeat Vader and the Emperor. Most of all though, they needed to trust in the force.

It should be remembered in all of this that Luke's martial skills aren't what won the day. Vader clearly outmatched him and could have cut him down at any time. But then of course the point was to turn Luke, not kill him. The only way he overcame him at all was by being suddenly overcome with berserker rage, which was all according to plan. And in the end, he surrenders and becomes passive and that's what finally conquers Vader, re-awakens Anakin and defeats Sidious. Those were Yoda's teachings in action, not the back flips and sabre techniques and it's what he must pass on to the new generation of Jedi.

Addendum: Another thing of note that some people seem to miss is that all through RotJ, Vader appears to have essentially given up. He lost his opportunity to break free of Palpatine at Bespin and he's now firmly under his master's control. He knows full well he's meant to die in that throne room, because he's seen this play out before when he killed Dooku. The tell is in the conversation at the landing platform. That is a man who has lost all hope.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It should be remembered in all of this that Luke's martial skills aren't what won the day. Vader clearly outmatched him and could have cut him down at any time.

That's not what the film or script say at all. From the ROTJ screenplay:

But the young Jedi has grown in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him.

Long before Luke gave into anger, he was Vader's superior in that duel--and he was holding back.

 

[fireproof78]

None of this makes sense to me. I find it hard to accept that it was necessary for Luke to have some "quickie" Jedi training, because he didn't start as a kid. And I do not recall any need for a "time constraint". As for the idea that Luke had to face Anakin and Palpatine as part of his trial, I would say that was all in the minds of Yoda and Obi-Wan, who simply wanted a tool to overcome the Sith.

But, they had to change. That was the whole point of the PT is that the Jedi were stagnant, they were diminished in their ability to use the Force and were not able to adapt to the new Sith threat.

 

[Ithekro]

If we go without any knowledge of the Prequels, we couldn't even tell if Luke was getting a quickie crash course in being a Jedi or not, since he was the only one we get to see being trained. We didn't even understand why Luke was considered too old by Yoda. Only that Luke ran off to help hid friends before his training was completed, but whatever he experienced between leaving and returning to Yoda was enough to Yoda to declare his training over. Only his last test, defeating Vader, remained.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

But, they had to change. That was the whole point of the PT is that the Jedi were stagnant, they were diminished in their ability to use the Force and were not able to adapt to the new Sith threat.

Oh? If they were not able to adapt, how did Kenobi kill Maul? He was not using the dark side (he calmed himself after being pushed into the pit), but he--trained in traditional beliefs and techniques--still defeated one of the Sith.

 

[Kemaiku]

I think they implied early on that that was the case, but I thought the third movie cleared that with Palpatine having been surpressing their ability to use the Force, in order to conceal himself and push them into believing in the need for a balance.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh? If they were not able to adapt, how did Kenobi kill Maul? He was not using the dark side (he calmed himself after being pushed into the pit), but he--trained in traditional beliefs and techniques--still defeated one of the Sith.

I was talking more about philosophically, not in combat. Palpatine was still able to manipulate the Jedi to the point that they pretty much helped him to create the Empire.

 

[USS Firefly]

Maybe the Jedi overall didn't need to change, but the grand master Yoda, who was the boss for how many centuries?

 

[Ithekro]

Defeating a Sith in combat was not the issue. Dealing with how the Sith are operating in the present was. The Sith had adapted and set themselves up to use the Jedi's strengths against them, while the Jedi had not changed much in the last thousand years. Yoda was not old enough to have been there to fight the last major Sith War, so he was likely trained by either the surviving masters of that war, or the people they trained following that war. Yoda had been training Jedi for 800 years, but was 900 years old. So it would depend on how old and what species his master was on if he ws learning from a Sith War veteran, or a student of a Sith War veteran.

Though in combat, Darth Maul was the only one of the Sith defeated by anyone not named Skywalker. Mind you we only have four Sith Lords in action during these years of Galactic History. Darth Maul is bicescted by Obi-wan Kenobi (doesn't die....his death is still unknown, and could still be at the hands of Darth Vader) , Darth Tyrannus had his head removed by Anakin Skywalker after giving in to the dark side a little. Darth Sidious was thrown into a battlestation's reator by Anakin Skywalker. And Darth Vader is mortally woundered my Palpatine after being bested by Luke Skywalker, and succumbing to Anakin Skywalker after 23 years of suppressing Anakin. His final death comes after his mask is removed by Luke Skywalker.

 

[LJones41]

There's a reason why Luke and Leia were sent away and not taken to some out of the way world to be trained from birth. For one thing, they wouldn't have been raised by loving families but by Jedi masters. To rebuild the order they would need to avoid the mistakes of the old order and the dogma that came with it. They needed to be a part of the galaxy they were going to save, not isolated from it.

But there was no guarantee that by avoiding the training of the Old Republic Jedi, Luke and Leia would avoid the mistakes of the old Jedi Council. They could still make mistakes - even new ones.

Darth Tyrannus had his head removed by Anakin Skywalker after giving in to the dark side a little.

"A little"?

I think they implied early on that that was the case, but I thought the third movie cleared that with Palpatine having been surpressing their ability to use the Force, in order to conceal himself and push them into believing in the need for a balance.

When did "ROTS" indicate that Palpatine was able to suppress the Jedi's use of the Force? Why are all or most of the Jedi's shortcomings during those last years of the Republic blamed on Palpatine and not on the Jedi's own mistakes and bad decisions?

And Darth Vader is mortally woundered my Palpatine after being bested by Luke Skywalker, and succumbing to Anakin Skywalker after 23 years of suppressing Anakin.

Anakin was always Anakin, whether he was a Sith, a Jedi, or some kid on Tatooine. His moral compass never changed his individuality.

 

[fireproof78]

But there was no guarantee that by avoiding the training of the Old Republic Jedi, Luke and Leia would avoid the mistakes of the old Jedi Council. They could still make mistakes - even new ones..

Possibly. That doesn't change the fact that the old way of training Jedi did not save them from the Sith.

Anakin was always Anakin, whether he was a Sith, a Jedi, or some kid on Tatooine. His moral compass never changed his individuality.

That's not the way becoming a Sith is presented in the films, though it is stated by Obi-Wan so it's questionable.

 

[Ithekro]

The implication from various media suggests that Darth Vader is more or less a personality overlay on top of Anakin Skywalker. Or at least that is how Obi-wan and Vader seem to see it and describe it.
"Anakin Skywalker was weak. I (Vader) destroyed him".
"He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened the good man that was your father was destroyed."

 

[Reverend]

The implication from various media suggests that Darth Vader is more or less a personality overlay on top of Anakin Skywalker. Or at least that is how Obi-wan and Vader seem to see it and describe it.
"Anakin Skywalker was weak. I (Vader) destroyed him".
"He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened the good man that was your father was destroyed."

It's a bit of a complicated one and I've seen people take it a little too literally & claim Vader is a symptom of multiple personalities or something, which is really not what's going on.

Vader is still basically Anakin, but with all the worse aspects oozing to the surface and all that was good in him pushed down so deeply he may as well be a different person...but he isn't. My read on it is that in this context "Anakin Skywalker" isn't a person per see, but a self-identity "Vader" has rejected and done everything he can to divorce himself from, hence "that name no longer has any meaning for me!"
Partly out of self-hatred (oh snap! so what's what's really driving Vader's darkside powers! ) but also out of a desire to forget all the pain, disappointment and (from his POV) betrayal that person *allowed* to happen to himself. Hence the perceived weakness, hence him embracing his Sith name as his "true self".

It's worth remembering that while quoting Obi-Wan's or even Vader's account is that both he and Kenobi were ultimately proven wrong. Luke was right. There *was* still good in him and he *was* still Anakin Skywalker.

 

[LJones41]

There *was* still good in him and he *was* still Anakin Skywalker.

"Anakin Skywalker" was not a label for his more positive side. He was simply Anakin Skywalker, both the good and the bad. Even as a Sith Lord, he was still Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader is nothing more than a title bestowed upon him by Palpatine.

That's not the way becoming a Sith is presented in the films, though it is stated by Obi-Wan so it's questionable.

That was more Obi-Wan's way. And he has always struck me as somewhat of a moral absolutist - something I have never found admirable about him.

Leia might be deferring to the General as the military commander.

Despite being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance, Leia has no choice. The Hoth base was Rieekan's domain, not hers. That is the way military protocol works.

However, Princess Leia is one of those that has to be doing something. So while Rieekan is in charge of the base and is leading the defense of said base, Leia is in charge of the evacuation of said base. She's the one giving orders to the fighter pilots that will be escorting the transports off Hoth. She's overseeing the evacuation and gives the order to send two transports at a time. When Han comes in after the Command Center has been hit, She's dispatching orders for troops to help cover the remaining evacuation forces now that the shield generator is gone. Her last order is to sound the final retreat and evacuate their remaining forces. That is where she is in command. The base has fallen, so her duty is to evacuate the remains of her regional cell command, troops, and as much equipment as they can.

And t his was WRONG. Lucas made a major blooper in showing Leia giving military commands. If Rieekan was not there, he should have left his second-in-command to continue the evacuation. In fact, Leia should have been among the first to be evacuated, considering that she was a political leader.

 

[Ithekro]

But is she a political officer, or is she in command of the region's military, thus making Rieekan under her command. The concept would have Rieekan as the base commander, while Leia is the Sector Commader. Making Leia equivalent to say and Imperial Moff or even Grand Moff, depending on how wider her command region is.

That would give way to her holding a General title by The Force Awakens. Though "General" is also a rank/title given to Jedi Knights and Master during the Clone Wars, while Padawan were given the title/rank of Commander. Note that Luke is called Commander Skywalker, while even Ahsoka Tano is called Commander Tano by the Clones, and later Kanan is called General by the Clones due to him being a Jedi. Could it be a subtle tell of Leia's Jedi powers?