Babylon 5

[JirinPanthosa]

When was it established that Minbari could reproduce with humans? I don't remember that, and I remember it being explicitly established that Delenn's transformation included the naughty bits with that line asking Ivonova about cramps.

And the whole Minbari soul/human soul bridge needing to be repaired thing implies that no previous hybrids existed.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Oh my so all her naughty bits also got changed. eek

 

[WB2]

Onlynaughty bits i even remember being talked about was Landos.. Not Delenns

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Onlynaughty bits i even remember being talked about was Landos.. Not Delenns

Yeah he used those to cheat at poker....

 

[Reverend]

When was it established that Minbari could reproduce with humans? I don't remember that, and I remember it being explicitly established that Delenn's transformation included the naughty bits with that line asking Ivonova about cramps.

And the whole Minbari soul/human soul bridge needing to be repaired thing implies that no previous hybrids existed.

'Attonement' revealed that Delenn and potentially uncountable others were decedents of Valen. But that's one half-human and one fully human ancestor from a thousand years ago, which is something like forty generations. Valen & Catherine's children would have been 3/4th human, but their grandchildren would have been less than half (3/8ths? it's been several decades since I've have to calculate fractions) and so on and so forth.
The only reason Delenn and Sheridan were able to produce David is because she had gone through the transformation because human ancestors or no, she only had a trace amount of human DNA, but enough to set off the triluminary. It wouldn't work with any other Minbari, anatomically or genetically.

The souls/balance thing is just what the Minbari believed. As with the Soul Hunters, the show itself was somewhat agnostic on the subject. Take it as you will.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Human and Minbari DNA can be combined but not through the traditional means.

 

[Forbin]

Deconstruction I enjoy for its vignettes and for offering a few tantalising hints at the series' future, even with its clear budget limitations and talking head format.

Gallery on the other hand did little for me. It's a second rate Lower Decks, but with a sense of self congratulatory backslapping about it that irked me. Bo and Mack pointing out all the great things about the show, with its highly reverent duo waxing lyrical about the great romance of Sheridan/Delenn, how the untested (and unknown) Lochley is gonna be great after all, or how even with a massive battle raging outside, Bo & Mack can quietly eat lunch watching the "colours" as their confidence in the crew and the station is unwavering. Couple that with the who-are-you-oh-ok-bye invasion force and too much self-referential material (comments about Ivanova and Sheridan's death-non-death) and I find I just want to skip it on rewatch as hurried Fan-ficton. Strangely, only Byron's section shows any innovation or depth and that was put in because the episode came up short and they needed an extra scene.

This was a real missed opportunity. That station has gone through a lot up to that point, and if I were the janitorial/handyman/whatever staff of B5 I'd be a whole lot more cynical of the egos and deities running the place. There could have been a really interesting dissection of the Senior Staff, which any low end subordinate would likely be doing day in and day out. Us little-uns are always mouthing off, criticising, boggling over decisions made by the brass. But instead JMS and Ellison gave us "look how great we are" instead. From a script written in a day. Hey, at least he didn't write it in a fever-dream state I suppose

Shame. But it was nice to see Delenn calling Mack & Bo "Worker Class". Classy lady with her nice compliments.

Hugo - Um, kind of, um .. spooish, I guess

All that, plus, I just didn't think the two actors were very good at all. I've seen at least one of them in other shows acting perfectly well, but in this ep they were both simply awful. An actor friend of mine has a phrase: "You can see the acting."

 

[Doom Shepherd]

Could it be argued that "View" is the closest B5 comes to having characters espouse a somewhat Trekkian philosophy? (ducks)

I thought the Trekkian view was supposed to have been held by the Lumati. *RUNS*

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The only reason Delenn and Sheridan were able to produce David is because she had gone through the transformation because human ancestors or no, she only had a trace amount of human DNA, but enough to set off the triluminary. It wouldn't work with any other Minbari, anatomically or genetically.

I see. So even if Catherine tried to use the chrysalis, it wouldn't work?

The only problem with that which I can see is how to explain Catherine's presence on Minbar that far in the past. Unless she had turned herself into a Minbari like Sinclair did, a human on Minbar at that time would attract quite a lot of attention. Especially since (as "Atonement" also established), Minbari are not allowed to take aliens as mates. Could Valen's considerable clout get around that?

Unless she never set foot there and met up with Sinclair/Valen somewhere else. Still, I am very curious to know how she managed to find him...must have been one hell of a coincidence.

 

[Reverend]

I see. So even if Catherine tried to use the chrysalis, it wouldn't work?

Almost certainly not.

The only problem with that which I can see is how to explain Catherine's presence on Minbar that far in the past. Unless she had turned herself into a Minbari like Sinclair did, a human on Minbar at that time would attract quite a lot of attention.

Unless she never set foot there and met up with Sinclair/Valen somewhere else. Still, I am very curious to know how she managed to find him...must have been one hell of a coincidence.

Yeah, it would attract quite a lot of attention and it did. Hence the scandal, hence his family having to leave Minbar for a time.

As for how he found her: it's really not much of a coincidence when you consider how she got lost in the past to begin with. Also, we don't know any of the details of how they even reconnected. For all we know she spent 10,000 years in stasis waiting to catch up with him or something, or she arrived way after him.

Another point to consider is that Zathras was with him. Zathras who's studied the great machine, Zathras who knows things even Draal hadn't figured out yet and who is well aware of the larger historical significance of Sheridan, Delenn and Sinclair. It's not unreasonable to posit that he led Valen right to where Catherine was, or at least pointed him in the right direction.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Almost certainly not.


Yeah, it would attract quite a lot of attention and it did. Hence the scandal, hence his family having to leave Minbar for a time.

As for how he found her: it's really not much of a coincidence when you consider how she got lost in the past to begin with. Also, we don't know any of the details of how they even reconnected. For all we know she spent 10,000 years in stasis waiting to catch up with him or something, or she arrived way after him.

Another point to consider is that Zathras was with him. Zathras who's studied the great machine, Zathras who knows things even Draal hadn't figured out yet and who is well aware of the larger historical significance of Sheridan, Delenn and Sinclair. It's not unreasonable to posit that he led Valen right to where Catherine was, or at least pointed him in the right direction.

It would be a hell of a coincidence if Zathras built the great machine.

Aren't there multiple clones of him around in different times / places?

 

[Reverend]

It would be a hell of a coincidence if Zathras built the great machine.

Aren't there multiple clones of him around in different times / places?

It's not clear what's going on with the family Zathras. There is at least one other caretaker of the same race who isn't a Zathras so it could simply be that they're born in large litters. Not necessarily clones at all.

And I didn't say Zathras built the Great Machine, just that in his 110 years he learned a thing or two from it and explicitly said he knows things about all three of them. All I'm suggesting is that one of those things may have been included "...and then Valen married a human..."

It's been years since I read 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' so I'm a little fuzzy with the details, but I recall some shenanigans going on with Catherine's time stabiliser. I think there was a suspicion that Ulkesh tampered with it somehow, prompting Sinclair to switch his for her's. So if what happened to her was actually what was supposed to happen to Sinclair, them all of a sudden, Catherine showing up in the time of Valen isn't such a coincidence after all.

 

[Marsden]

'Attonement' revealed that Delenn and potentially uncountable others were decedents of Valen. But that's one half-human and one fully human ancestor from a thousand years ago, which is something like forty generations. Valen & Catherine's children would have been 3/4th human, but their grandchildren would have been less than half (3/8ths? it's been several decades since I've have to calculate fractions) and so on and so forth.
The only reason Delenn and Sheridan were able to produce David is because she had gone through the transformation because human ancestors or no, she only had a trace amount of human DNA, but enough to set off the triluminary. It wouldn't work with any other Minbari, anatomically or genetically.

The souls/balance thing is just what the Minbari believed. As with the Soul Hunters, the show itself was somewhat agnostic on the subject. Take it as you will.

Sorry to be blunt, but I think you are wrong.

Valen didn't find Catherine right away, he had a Minbari spouse, then the scandal was that he located Catherine and left. This guy totally redid the whole Minbari culture. He didn't do that with a Human wife, a race/species that Minbari never met and wouldn't for a very long time. He reorganized the castes, created the Grey Council, and started that Minbari don't kill Minbari thing. The worker caste was sub-Minbari before this, as well. Then Valen, a Minbari not born of Minbari, had to leave. But the gene pool was "polluted".

 

[Reverend]

^And you're basing this on what exactly?

 

[Jan]

Once again we have a situation that simply cannot be fanwanked into canonicity due to Real Life Meets TV Show. At one point JMS said that Valen never had children. Then, of course he did. At one point Catherine Sakai was supposed to be mind raped and forget all about Sinclair. Then, of course, she ended up going back to the past and Valen finds her and is reunited. That's one of the few drawbacks of interacting with the writer at the time the show was made - we can see where the hiccups are.

 

[Reverend]

^I don't know, I think it's interesting to see how a story evolves in the telling. Ever read Lucas's early drafts of Star Wars? Most bare next to no relation to the final product but you can still see a lot of the nascent ideas floating around.

As for Valen, I think what is established in canon is pretty airtight in regards to Catherine being Valen's spouse and the source of the supposed scandal. I could have sworn JMS confirmed Catherine was the "her" in "I found her" somewhere but I'll be damned if I can find it just now. That's really the only detail not made explicit in the relevant comic & novel, everything else is pretty consistent.

It's worth keeping in mind that we don't even know what the sequence of events was. The written note Marcus found in tDitCoS physically couldn't be dated, so it could have been written just before Sinclair left, during the first Shadow War, or decades afterwards.
All we know in regards to the voice message is that it was recorded at some point when they were still using B4 in some capacity and after the war had continued for some time, as per the flashbacks.
Also, the supposed scandal could have come to a head *after* Valen had gone off and disappeared without a trace (one assumes after Catherine passed away.) The family referred to could well have been mostly his and Catherine's grandchildren and their progeny.
One would think it'd take at least that long for social stigma to override the reverence for a living messiah, prophet, statesman and war hero.

 

[Jan]

As for Valen, I think what is established in canon is pretty airtight in regards to Catherine being Valen's spouse and the source of the supposed scandal. I could have sworn JMS confirmed Catherine was the "her" in "I found her" somewhere but I'll be damned if I can find it just now. That's really the only detail not made explicit in the relevant comic & novel, everything else is pretty consistent.

Yes, he did confirm it, even though Catherine was mentioned in the address of the message to the others. JMS said that was a mistake and that 'I've found her' did refer to Sakai.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's not clear what's going on with the family Zathras. There is at least one other caretaker of the same race who isn't a Zathras

You mean the other one from "In the Beginning"? I thought that was one of Zathras' brothers (also named Zathras).

Is there any canonical information about his species at all? Hell, maybe they're ALL Zathras.

 

[LJones41]

Sorry to be blunt, but I think you are wrong.

Valen didn't find Catherine right away, he had a Minbari spouse, then the scandal was that he located Catherine and left. This guy totally redid the whole Minbari culture. He didn't do that with a Human wife, a race/species that Minbari never met and wouldn't for a very long time. He reorganized the castes, created the Grey Council, and started that Minbari don't kill Minbari thing. The worker caste was sub-Minbari before this, as well. Then Valen, a Minbari not born of Minbari, had to leave. But the gene pool was "polluted".

Is this some Babylon 5 novel?

 

[Reverend]

You mean the other one from "In the Beginning"? I thought that was one of Zathras' brothers (also named Zathras).

Is there any canonical information about his species at all? Hell, maybe they're ALL Zathras.

There is another one seen in 'War Without End Part 1' by the name of Spragg and was played by Eric Zivot (who also played the Centauri courtier that taunted G'Kar with water.)
Clearly the initial idea was simply that there was a population of this race that lived worked and died within the great machine.
The multiple Zathrases (Zathraii?) is a gag they introduced in the 4th season, mostly I suspect just so they can have that character and actor back without having to contrive some way of him returning from the past. And just for funsies of course.

Beyond that, no, nothing is really known about their race any more than we know about Varn's race or the real purpose or full capabilities of the machine itself.