How many people on Voyager?

[TonyLeung82]

About the "mysterious riddle" of the Voyager crew count, according to Memory Alpha website, it was stated that when USS Voyager left DS9, in the very beginning of Caretaker (1x01 - pt1), its crew complement was 153. All Starfleet, of course. It is also mentionned in Author, Author (s7x20), that the crew didn't consist more than 146 members (Starfleet ; the Maquis - at least those who remained knowing that they were maybe a dozen from ValJean at first ; 2 ex-Borg drones, ex-members of 5 former Equinox crew members and Neelix, the Talaxian "chef").
What means that Janeway would have lost 9 crew members between s1 and s7.. . .And it's there that, it seems to me that, there is a small problem of discount, knowing that::

- 2 left on their own (Kes and Neelix). I didn't count the Borg children (3) as seeing as they just "visited".
- 8 were killed on screen (Seska, Franck Darwin, Lon Suder, Ahnni Jetal, Lyndsay Ballard, the crewwoman that Janeway tried to reanimate in Scientific Method, Enseign Kaplan and course, Lt Carrey in Friendship One) but I'm pretty sure that there were other victims in the crew further to varied post-Caretaker's attack and nevertheless it weren't deducted.

In any event the vessel continued to work at full capacity and it is very well so!

The words "mysterious riddle" regarding the crew-count was just a joke from me, because there isnt any mystery left. The crew count from Voyager is already solved, the numbers are obvious.
At the beginning there had to be 141 crew and not 153, even when Janeway mentioned it. She was counting all the people who were in the dry dock before launching the ship at Utopia Planitia to install, repair, surveillance and so on. They were there, but they never went on the Journey to the badlands. Another arguement for the 141 is, that you would never come to the mentioned figures of 148 people in "Distand Origin" and "Displaced" in Season 3, when it would be different. No matter what is said or happened, fact is you have to reach the 148 in Season 3. Given the circumstances with start of 141 starfleet personel, 14 dead starfleet beginning of Caretaker, joining of 32 maquis plus Tovok, Paris, Kes and Neelix and the casualities till season 3 with 16 people (Seska, Durst, Bendera + 2 other, Darwin, Jonas, Bennet, Hogan, Suder, Martin, Mary Kaplan and 4 unidentified people dead) and the birth of Naomie you reach this number.
141-14+32+4-16+1 = 148 crew in season 3.
The 14 dead in Caretaker are mentioned from Harry ("We lost over a dozen crew members").
At least 32 maquies ("almost a quarter of the crew is Maquis" (Chell in "Repression").
The 32 maquis are supported from 32 personel at the Val Jean (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Val_Jean_personnel).
It could be even more maquis members, but then you have to adapt the people who died in Caretaker.

Now you can calculate how this number would be if it would be 153 from the start. You would never reach 148.

Then it goes further with casualities:
- Ahni Jetal dies, Unidentified in "Scientif Methods", Lindsey Ballard, 1 casuality in "Killing Game", 1 casuality in "One", 3 dead in Equinox, Technician Lang dies somehow in Season 6 (seen on the casuality list from "Imperfection"), Carey dies and Neelix leaves.
When you combine all this casualities (or losses) and add the 5 people from Equinox and Icheb (only he stayed from the children) then you reach with the birth of Miral Paris a crew count of 144 at the end of "Endgame".
148-11+5+1+1 = 144

In Author, Author (s7x20) the crew consists of 145 people plus the doctor, because he also deserves to call earth, but officially he is not counted.

 

[MacLeod]

[QUOTE="TonyLeung82, post: 11646266, member: 71257"
You mention the famous shuttle crafts:
exactly 17 shuttles are destroyed in the series or just gone (given to refugees for example).
in season 1 no shuttle is destroyed, in season 2 = 3, season 3 = 2, season 4 = 4, in season 5 = 6, in season 6 and season 7 always 1 shuttle.
Really much shuttles are destroyed in season 5 with 6 shuttles gone, following with season 4 with 4 shuttles gone. I answer to you, that even 6 shuttles in 1 year isnt impossible to replace. This are in 2 months 1 shuttle to build. So they have 8 weeks time to replace a shuttle, i think this is enough time. For season 4 they have even 12 weeks time.
[/QUOTE]

We are told in S1 they have NO way to repalce their photon torpedeo's. At a basic level a photon torpedeo is a warp ship. So how do they replace something more complex like a shuttlecraft.

 

[stardream]

We are told in S1 they have NO way to repalce their photon torpedeo's. At a basic level a photon torpedeo is a warp ship. So how do they replace something more complex like a shuttlecraft.

Once again,they built the Delta Flyer. Twice. We saw them do it. If they could accomplish this clearly they could also replace the smaller, less intricate shuttles. Why is this always being ignored? I'm not trying to be argumentative here...it just seems that this canon fact always seems to be dismissed whenever this debate comes up.

 

[TonyLeung82]

Once again,they built the Delta Flyer. Twice. We saw them do it. If they could accomplish this clearly they could also replace the smaller, less intricate shuttles. Why is this always being ignored? I'm not trying to be argumentative here...it just seems that this canon fact always seems to be dismissed whenever this debate comes up.

THANKS for this answer, saved me to answer this :-) People always complain before thinking.

 

[Lynx]

All thanks to the Torpedo and Shuttle Building Team!

 

[MacLeod]

THANKS for this answer, saved me to answer this :-) People always complain before thinking.

No it's the writers treating the audiance as morons. Expecting us not to remember that line of dialouge, but the whole point of that line was to raise the issue of limited supplies and having to be careful how they used their limited resources. But it was far easier to ignore that line rather than address the problem of dwindling supplies of shuttles and torpedeos etc..

 

[stardream]

I wonder if the writers themselves even remembered. There was a change over in the production team at the beginning of the third season.

 

[Doctor Clu]

I was watching the second episode of seventh season today and Paris says to Janeway "You know the last time you took out the Delta Flyer it came back in a thousand pieces." and that was talking about how Janeway and boarding parting beamed over to a Borg cube short of it being destroyed.

Soooo, thoughts on this:
1) The Delta Flyer was important to run in dangerous situations rather than Voyager. With the energy conservation of growing food rather than using replicators, that would free up energy for a critical use. Maybe rebuilding a shuttle or Delta Flyer was just more important.

2) There were numerous time they talked about taking something solid and returning it to the energy reserve. Why not? So if that were the case couldn't they take material beams from space and just convert that to energy for the reserves? Or in the case of the destroyed Delta Flyer they could do a wide beam of the debris field of the Delta Flyer, beam the "thousands of pieces in", turn into energy, turn out of the replicator a new Delta Flyer?

Another thing by the later seasons is how Voyager had woven in so many enhancements of other races, things they had stolen from the Borg, etc. Plus they had chances to pull in or find energy sources. Maybe later on they simply weren't as bad off.

 

[Lynx]

No it's the writers treating the audiance as morons. Expecting us not to remember that line of dialouge, but the whole point of that line was to raise the issue of limited supplies and having to be careful how they used their limited resources. But it was far easier to ignore that line rather than address the problem of dwindling supplies of shuttles and torpedeos etc..

That was actually a main problem with Voyager, not only when it came to shuttles and torpedoes.

Sometimes the writers were desperately trying to come up with weird ideas and such. When those ideas didn't work, they never corrected them in any way or tried to come up with some plausible explanation. They just kept going like "Ah, never mind. The viewers won't notice!" But the viewers did notice!

Take that thing with the Hydroponics Bay which Kes created to grow vegetables and such to feed the crew. When Kes was dumped, Hydroponics Bay dissapeared. Obviously there was no food problem anymore! Maybe Seven solved that problem too.

Or "Threshold". No one talked about those events or even joked about it later (which was actually good because then it was possible to come up with a theory that the whole episode was a nightmare Janeway had instead of a real adventure).

The break-up between Kes and Neelix which was badly handled. But no surprise here. The writers of TNG and Voyager was totally incompetent when it came to describing feelings, emotions and relationships. We could see that all the way back in TNG.

Or all that damage to the ship and it was still going and looked like straight out of the ship wharf. I mean, if I start to kick a delicate thing like my computer al ot of times on different occasions, it will look like s**t and stop functioning quickly. But not Voyager. Here's a suggestion to the writers: If you don't want the ship to look like something out of a scrapyard and don't want to deal with the fact in every episode that this engine here or those conduits there are damaged beyond repair and will never work again, then don't write stories where Voyager is nearly shot to pieces. Make it less affected or no affected at all.

There were many times consoles were exploding and crewmembers flung like rag dolls over the bridge or in engineering. But five seconds later, the consoles were as new and the crewmember...well, they might have built a new one, who knows

Sometimes they were going to hard for effects and didn't think about the consequences. But.....the viewers wouldn't notice, they thought.

Sloppy writing didn't totally ruin the show. But it did drag it down a bit.

I think it could have been better if Voyager had had new writers with fresh ideas instead of that gang from TNG who were obviously worn out after seven years on that show.

 

[Tracy Trek]

I think many shows suffer from that same problem of issues with continuity and they just hand-wave it away saying the viewers won't notice.

This issue was even addressed in a satirical sort of way on Stargate SG1. It was the 200th episode. It was the one about how someone who had knowledge of the Stargate program had written a script for a movie that was based on the Stargate program. The Air Force was allowing it so they could have plausible deniability in case of another security leak.

Anyway, the SG1 team was acting as tech. advisors. The writer says the audience won't notice when they question him about something. Col. Mitchell tells him the audience is thoughtful and intelligent. This was also the episode that had a spoof of Star Trek and The Wizard of Oz among others.

 

[stardream]

We also have to keep in mind that things changed after they crossed the Nekrit expanse. Apparently on one side we had the frontier. There were advanced races there but the Vidians were obssessed with survivial and the Talaxians were friendly but basically refugees. After crossing the Nekrit expanse they apparently came in contact with more stable civilizations willing to trade. We often saw Janeway going off on missions to make deals.(Someone to Watch Over Me for exampe, Maccroism was another). They just didn't make a big deal of it in the episodes...it was normally just a line or two here or there. That they could somehow get the material to make more photon torpedoes is not byond the bounds of possibility. While it would have been nice to have seen that mentioned it's not a big deal to me. I just assumed they figured out how to do it.

The Hydroponics Bay was mentioned again in a later episode. Someone was doing a shift there.....

edit: It was in Someone To Watch Over me.

What bothered me the most was them forgetting who Reginald Barkely was. He was there all during Projections but when Pathfinder came around they had no idea who he was?

 

[MacLeod]

I think many shows suffer from that same problem of issues with continuity and they just hand-wave it away saying the viewers won't notice.

This issue was even addressed in a satirical sort of way on Stargate SG1. It was the 200th episode. It was the one about how someone who had knowledge of the Stargate program had written a script for a movie that was based on the Stargate program. The Air Force was allowing it so they could have plausible deniability in case of another security leak.

Anyway, the SG1 team was acting as tech. advisors. The writer says the audience won't notice when they question him about something. Col. Mitchell tells him the audience is thoughtful and intelligent. This was also the episode that had a spoof of Star Trek and The Wizard of Oz among others.

Well the 200th episode was a loose sequel to the 100th episode "Wormhole extreme" which had O'Neill acting as technical advisor to a TV show based on the stargate programme. But isn't Mitchells line a subtle swipe and those who think that the audaince won't pick up on these things. But that dealt with the trope of Lampshade hanging which is basically a way of telling the audiance the writer(s) are aware of something i.e an impluasible plot development and not trying to slip it past the audiance. I.e calling our attention to it and moving on vs ignoring it. The former at least treats the audiance with some respect whilst the later doesn't.

 

[TonyLeung82]

Another thing by the later seasons is how Voyager had woven in so many enhancements of other races, things they had stolen from the Borg, etc. Plus they had chances to pull in or find energy sources. Maybe later on they simply weren't as bad off.

Exactly this. I think after Scorpion part 2 they kept the settings of the borg installed on board. They never really explained what exactly the borg did, but if they keep it it can not be this bad.
And pls do not forget, that in the Episode "The Drone" from season 5 the future borg also enhanced the settings on the Voyager. If i remember correctly he improved the shield-settings and the weapons. And the crew of Voyager would be stupid to get rid of this new technique.

 

[Sophie74656]

In the void they mention that one of the species showed them how to greatly increase their replicator output using much less energy. Before that they mention or show trade with other species, so they could possibly have traded what they needed for material to rebuild some torpedoes.

Plus the way I always imagined, is that in between the episodes when Voyager is just flying in a straight line they have plenty of time to make repairs and fix shuttles.

 

[Dispaminite]

I figured Voyager turned most of their probes into torpedoes once they got desperate. It would explain why they used so few of them to actually scan and the one episode where they built a specially designed ship to go retrieve it (instead of just blowing it up).

 

[TonyLeung82]

The 14 dead in Caretaker are mentioned from Harry ("We lost over a dozen crew members").
At least 32 maquies ("almost a quarter of the crew is Maquis" (Chell in "Repression").
The 32 maquis are supported from 32 personel at the Val Jean (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Val_Jean_personnel).
It could be even more maquis members, but then you have to adapt the people who died in Caretaker.

Update:
When you take care of the counts of maquis mentioned in "Repression" in Season 7, then it only can be 36 Maquis from the beginning.
- 5 Maquies died (Seska, Bendera, Jonas, Hogan, Suder) till Season 7
- 9 Maquis got "mind melded" in "Repression"(Tabor, Jor, Yosa, Fitzpatrick, +Unkown, Ayala, Torres, Chakotay, Tuvok as the attacker)
- Chakotay mentions at the end of the episode "There are still 23 of our former comrades who aren't with us yet."
So there are 37 maquis (including Tuvok) or 36 Maquis without Tuvok

With this counts there had to die in "Caretaker" 18 Starfleet crew, they got supported from 40 people (36 Maquis+Tuvok, Neelix, Kes and Paris).
Current Update: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/voyager-crew.htm

 

[Aquintaok-1998]

Update:
When you take care of the counts of maquis mentioned in "Repression" in Season 7, then it only can be 36 Maquis from the beginning.
- 5 Maquies died (Seska, Bendera, Jonas, Hogan, Suder) till Season 7
- 9 Maquis got "mind melded" in "Repression"(Tabor, Jor, Yosa, Fitzpatrick, +Unkown, Ayala, Torres, Chakotay, Tuvok as the attacker)
- Chakotay mentions at the end of the episode "There are still 23 of our former comrades who aren't with us yet."
So there are 37 maquis (including Tuvok) or 36 Maquis without Tuvok

With this counts there had to die in "Caretaker" 18 Starfleet crew, they got supported from 40 people (36 Maquis+Tuvok, Neelix, Kes and Paris).
Current Update: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/voyager-crew.htm

And they got supported with 4 people from the other ship USS Equinoks, weren't they?

 

[Tracy Trek]

5 people from the Equinox.

 

[TonyLeung82]

And they got supported with 4 people from the other ship USS Equinoks, weren't they?

Later on in the series it has been 5 people not 4, and one guy of them was seen in another episode again ("Repentance" with Brian Sofin). Everyone is thinking the Equinox-Crew did not appear again, but Brian Sofin did once. He was not credited in his role, but same actor.

But my post before was ment for "Caretaker", that there have been 36 Maquis and not 32 like said earlier. And when there were a support of 40 People (36 Maquis+Tuvok+Paris+Kes+Neelix), there had to die at the beginning of Caretaker 18 people to reach the mentioned figures in the series. Just look in the given link from ex-astris-scientia, there is a nice list.
The Equinox-Crew came much later on and is not important in this case for the pilot-episode.