Enterprise WAS a Prequel!!!

[fireproof78]

For Trip and T'Pol, I wasn't only talking about romance. I was also referring to 2 people who initially didn't like each other and later formed a friendship. The point is that even some non-shippers saw good chemistry between the two.

To clarify, I liked Sato's development from wuss to a brave officer willing to do anything to protect her crew. It's just that the revelations of her past in Observer Effect felt forced. It was telling, not showing. For Reed, it wasn't as much of a shock to find out he was a spy since he was so reserved. But it still felt like a last-minute attempt to make him interesting.

As for Trip's development, the only way I can think of that it wouldn't be meaningful is if you take TATV as canon. But most of us don't. It's hard to believe that it wouldn't feel organic when he got so much screen time. I hear over and over again on this boards and Trek FM how much Trip has grown and they have nothing but good things to say about it. That tends to happen with arguably the most popular character on the show. So your opinion about him is probably in the minority.

I'm not arguing for the majority here. I liked some aspects of Enterprise but the "Big 3" aspect was one that I didn't like. Trip probably grew a lot but that doesn't endear him to me as a character.

Also, I thought Reed was interesting from the get-go, so the spy part was something more for me to enjoy. Again, mileage may vary.

 

[T'Arwen]

What annoys me more that Enterprise introduced some new aliens, a couple of which were major players like the Xindi and Suliban, and apparently they aren't even worth a footnote in later series. I know the production order makes retrofitting a new alien race into shows filmed earlier is impossible without special edition editing, but still, having some really significant events introducing aliens nobody knows about later is weird.

Of course now if there was an alternate timeline where the temporal cold war never happened and the Xindi didn't chop up Florida...

If I remember correctly, the Suliban were only involved with the TCW (and only the genetically enhanced ones). Most people in-universe have never heard of the TCW. And when it comes to time travel, I'm sure Starfleet would keep it classified. And the Xindi? Broadway in the Trek-verse didn't make enough musicals about them.

In all seriousness, the Xindi war was just a skirmish compared to the Romulan one. I'm sure the War of 1812 was a huge event for people who watched the British destroy DC but unlike the Civil War, no one today talks about it in casual conversation. And just because someone is a major player in history doesn't mean they'll get mentioned hundreds of years from now. Alexander Hamilton laid the foundation for the American economy. Which is pretty damn important. It's crazy to think few people knew what he did before the musical even though he's on the $10 bill.

To quote Lin-Manuel Miranda, "you have no control who lives, who dies, who tells your story." Flip open a travel guide or magazine blurb about a museum. It will probably say something along the lines of "have you heard of so-and-so." So-and-so did something important but was overshadowed by someone else. People who make a fuss of ENT introducing new species overestimate the history knowledge of the average person. Don't believe me? Here are some experts to the rescue.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ctually-know-less-you-think-180955431/?no-ist
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Study-Americans-Dont-Know-About-Much-About-History.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...dents-know-little-about-their-country/391823/

I'm not arguing for the majority here. I liked some aspects of Enterprise but the "Big 3" aspect was one that I didn't like. Trip probably grew a lot but that doesn't endear him to me as a character.

Also, I thought Reed was interesting from the get-go, so the spy part was something more for me to enjoy. Again, mileage may vary.

I think everyone would agree that the Big 3 (even people who like these characters) had too much screen time in expense of the others. But I just wonder why you didn't feel endeared to Trip. It's strange to say the least. Personally, what I like about Trip is that he embodies all the contradictions about humans Soval mentioned. Emotional but disciplined for example.

It's also strange to see someone who said Reed was interesting from the get-go. Some complained that he was a dull British stereotype. Me, I don't agree with either of the above. I don't dislike him but never felt a strong connection.

 

[Dukhat]

It's also strange to see someone who said Reed was interesting from the get-go. Some complained that he was a dull British stereotype. Me, I don't agree with either of the above. I don't dislike him but never felt a strong connection.

I never thought Reed was a British stereotype. If anything, I thought that Trip was a Southern fried hick stereotype until the later seasons, and he was my favorite character.

 

[eyeresist]

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Cardassian_history

Proves the opposite of your point.
"The date of first contact between the Federation and the Cardassian Union has never been established"
"The First [Cardassian] Republic existed as of the late-21st century and was known for its serialist poetry. This included the works of serialist poet Iloja of Prim, who would have to spend an exile on Vulcan"

I might have mixed some stuff from the novels with canon

In the novel-verse, Tobin Dax was around the time of the NX-01, and he met Iloja the Cardassian on Vulcan.

I think the issue here is that the NX-01 encounters an advanced alien race with holodeck technology back in the 22nd century, but by the 24th (specifically the first season of TNG), holodeck technology is treated as if it's brand-new to the entire Federation and Starfleet.

I don't think they ruled out others having the technology before them.

I'm re-watching the episode Judgment where Archer is on trial by the Klingons and they never did mention how Archer got captured by the Klingons in the first place. we just see him on trial. talk about a big goof.

You can easily guess how they captured him. That's not what the ep is about.

 

[Jinn]

Proves the opposite of your point.
"The date of first contact between the Federation and the Cardassian Union has never been established"
"The First [Cardassian] Republic existed as of the late-21st century and was known for its serialist poetry. This included the works of serialist poet Iloja of Prim, who would have to spend an exile on Vulcan"

Actually that proves my original point which was that they should have used species that were around in the 22nd century and could have contact to Earth. Using Cardassians, which they didn't, could have been a possibility, though I can understand that they didn't want to use them shortly after the Cardassian-heavy DS9. Generally species only seen in the 24th century series are suggested to not have been around since TOS and if they weren't around in the 23rd century it seems very unlikely that they interacted with 22nd century Earth. Of course there is always the possibility that they just weren't onscreen in the 23rd century.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Actually that proves my original point which was that they should have used species that were around in the 22nd century and could have contact to Earth

They used several species mentioned in TOS, Andorians, Tellertites, Rigilians,the Axanar and others that I've probably forgotten.

 

[somebuddyX]

The green people. Tholians. Gorn.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Generally species only seen in the 24th century series are suggested to not have been around since TOS and if they weren't around in the 23rd century it seems very unlikely that they interacted with 22nd century Earth.

I don't think either one of these are very logical inferences. Of course no species that weren't invented yet at the time of TOS would be seen there, but it doesn't mean they weren't around, and even if they weren't during that time for whatever hypothetical in-universe reason, that wouldn't preclude Earth having had some earlier contact with them.

The green people.

Orions.

Gorn.

Thankfully only in the Mirror Universe, since IIRC it was implied that there had been no contact with them before TOS.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think either one of these are very logical inferences. Of course no species that weren't invented yet at the time of TOS would be seen there, but it doesn't mean they weren't around, and even if they weren't during that time for whatever hypothetical in-universe reason, that wouldn't preclude Earth having had some earlier contact with them.

I'v always found it odd that people conflate first time we see a species on the show with first contact by our heroes.

 

[Dukhat]

Proves the opposite of your point.

Well, I don't know whose point it was, but it wasn't mine. My point was that I didn't want to see a prequel to TOS that contained Ferengi, Borg, Cardassians, Romulans straight out of Nemesis, Risa, and any other TNG-era stuff, no matter when these aliens were flying around the galaxy. I'd seen all that before, and it wasn't all that different. At least we got the TOS feel in the final season, although it was a tad overkill.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, I don't know whose point it was, but it wasn't mine. My point was that I didn't want to see a prequel to TOS that contained Ferengi, Borg, Cardassians, Romulans straight out of Nemesis, Risa, and any other TNG-era stuff, no matter when these aliens were flying around the galaxy. I'd seen all that before, and it wasn't all that different. At least we got the TOS feel in the final season, although it was a tad overkill.

I think the first two seasons were more like TOS.
The references to TOS probably outnumber the ones to TNG. Other than the Romulans they were pretty much one off.
The Romulans are an odd choice to object to, since the biggest event of the 22nd Century in the Earth Romulan War. So they reused some costumes to save money. Hardly the first time it's happened.
They also had a fair share of original species like the Denobulans, the Suliban, the Tandarans and the Xindi.

 

[Dukhat]

I think the first two seasons were more like TOS.
The references to TOS probably outnumber the ones to TNG. Other than the Romulans they were pretty much one off.
The Romulans are an odd choice to object to, since the biggest event of the 22nd Century in the Earth Romulan War. So they reused some costumes to save money. Hardly the first time it's happened.
They also had a fair share of original species like the Denobulans, the Suliban, the Tandarans and the Xindi.

See, I feel the exact opposite. I felt that the first two seasons of ENT could have been written for the Voyager crew and it wouldn't have made much of a difference. There might have been one or two eps that specifically referenced 22nd century events like the Boomers, but it just felt like the 8th and 9th seasons of VOY with a different cast and a different ship.

As for the TOS "references," I always felt they were just going through the ST Encyclopedia and just making random name-drops without actually realizing if they went logically with the story. I remember once when they used the "Malurians" in an ep which showed them to be and advanced spacefaring civilization, but in TOS's "The Changeling," they were just some primitive race Nomad destroyed.

As for the Romulans, my objection stems again from how they were portrayed. Even if I overlooked the wardrobe, I just felt like these Romulans were made to be far more technologically advanced than IMHO they should have been. If these Romulans went to war with Earth, they would have totally destroyed the planet.

Yes, I realize that my opinions are subjective.

 

[BillJ]

Despite your beliefs about canon or how entertaining the show Star Trek: Enterprise was, it was a prequel:

If you enjoyed it, then what does it matter what other folks "beliefs" are?

Star Trek: Enterprise was very hit or miss for me. Though I enjoyed it more than Deep Space Nine or Voyager. Like anything else, it was going to be impossible to make everyone happy.

 

[Nerys Myk]

As for the TOS "references," I always felt they were just going through the ST Encyclopedia and just making random name-drops without actually realizing if they went logically with the story. I remember once when they used the "Malurians" in an ep which showed them to be and advanced spacefaring civilization, but in TOS's "The Changeling," they were just some primitive race Nomad destroyed.

I don't recall anything about the Malurians being primitive.

KIRK: Any response from the Malurians, Lieutenant?
UHURA: Nothing since their original distress call, sir.
KIRK: What about the Federation science team working there? Doctor Manway had a special transmitter.
UHURA: There's nothing, sir. I'm scanning all frequencies.
KIRK: They have to answer.
SPOCK: Captain. They will not answer. The long-range sensor sweep of this system reveals no sign of life.
KIRK: That can't be. The last census reported a total inhabitation of more than four billion people.
SPOCK: I register no life readings at all, sir.
KIRK: That's impossible. What could have happened?
SPOCK: We would have known in advance of any system-wide catastrophe, and in the event of an interplanetary war, there would be considerable radioactive residue. Our instruments show only normal background radiation.

They're capable of sending a distress signal that a starship can pick up and capable of involvement in an interplanetary war. They're in contact with the Federation. Doesn't sound primitive to me.

See, I feel the exact opposite. I felt that the first two seasons of ENT could have been written for the Voyager crew and it wouldn't have made much of a difference. There might have been one or two eps that specifically referenced 22nd century events like the Boomers, but it just felt like the 8th and 9th seasons of VOY with a different cast and a different ship.

Voyager was an attempt to capture the TOS vibe. In fact, DS9 is the only show to really step away from TOS and even it has one foot inside the TOS circle. Almost any episode can be dropped in to any of the shows with little alteration. More than a few plots have been recycled across the franchise.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

What I meant is that if the show was going to be advertised as taking place 100 years before TOS, then don't write scripts or use aliens that would have worked as VOY episodes.

See, I feel the exact opposite. I felt that the first two seasons of ENT could have been written for the Voyager crew and it wouldn't have made much of a difference. There might have been one or two eps that specifically referenced 22nd century events like the Boomers, but it just felt like the 8th and 9th seasons of VOY with a different cast and a different ship.

And why not? NX-01 was exploring unfamiliar space without backup at distances from Earth beyond any previously reached by humans. Seems pretty comparable to Voyager's situation to me.

 

[Dukhat]

They're capable of sending a distress signal that a starship can pick up and capable of involvement in an interplanetary war. They're in contact with the Federation. Doesn't sound primitive to me.

Well, no. It was the Federation science team that was in contact with the Federation, not the Malurians themselves. At least that's how I interpreted that line.

Why not? NX-01 was exploring unfamiliar space without backup at distances from Earth beyond any previously reached by humans. Seems pretty comparable to Voyager's situation to me.

Then why the hell didn't they just continue on producing VOY then if they were just going to do the exact same thing with ENT?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, no. It was the Federation science team that was in contact with the Federation, not the Malurians themselves. At least that's how I interpreted that line.

The Feds had their own transmitter, separate than the one the Malurians sent the distress call with. That's why Kirk asks about it and Uhura responds that she's scanning on all frequencies. Plus the interplanetary war line indicates a spacefaring culture.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Then why the hell didn't they just continue on producing VOY then if they were just going to do the exact same thing with ENT?

As @Nerys Myk said above, what was so different about TOS from that?

 

[Dukhat]

As @Nerys Myk said above, what was so different about TOS from that?

Because the show, to my knowledge, was supposed to be about the circumstances that led to the formation of the Federation. I didn't feel we got that at all in the first two seasons. It was just VOY all over again, flying around randomly in unknown space and meeting aliens that we'll never see again.

 

[Nerys Myk]

As @Nerys Myk said above, what was so different about TOS from that?

Because the show, to my knowledge, was supposed to be about the circumstances that led to the formation of the Federation. I didn't feel we got that at all in the first two seasons. It was just VOY all over again, flying around randomly in unknown space and meeting aliens that we'll never see again.

That's all the shows in a nutshell. The differences are surface level: 22nd/23rd/24th Century, Delta/Gamma Quadrant, starship/starbase. The formation of the Federation is no different than lost in the Delta Quadrant or Wormhole to the Gamma Quandrant. It's just a plot device so our heroes can "fly around randomly in unknown space and meet aliens that we'll never see again." Enterprise plays with the idea of the nascent UFP by introducing the species that will someday form the Federation and playing with the concepts associated with it. And that's really all it has to do to justify the premise.