Enterprise WAS a Prequel!!!

[Dukhat]

In the first season ep "Unexpected" they encountered aliens who had a holodeck. That's it. But apparently it's impossible that anyone had holo tech before TNG...

I think the issue here is that the NX-01 encounters an advanced alien race with holodeck technology back in the 22nd century, but by the 24th (specifically the first season of TNG), holodeck technology is treated as if it's brand-new to the entire Federation and Starfleet.

Just like how Archer saw Ferengi 200 years before Picard made "first contact" with them. Their excuse was that Archer never actually knew the name of their race, but that didn't really matter, because we the audience knew damn well who they were. The Borg too. Suspension of disbelief just seemed to fall apart after awhile.

 

[Richard Baker]

I don't think any suspension of disbelief was intended or implied- just because the audience know who these races are doesn't effect the in-universe world. People wanted to see some first contact with alien races known to Trek and we did. What annoys me more that Enterprise introduced some new aliens, a couple of which were major players like the Xindi and Suliban, and apparently they aren't even worth a footnote in later series. I know the production order makes retrofitting a new alien race into shows filmed earlier is impossible without special edition editing, but still, having some really significant events introducing aliens nobody knows about later is weird.

Of course now if there was an alternate timeline where the temporal cold war never happened and the Xindi didn't chop up Florida...

 

[Dukhat]

I don't think any suspension of disbelief was intended or implied- just because the audience know who these races are doesn't effect the in-universe world. People wanted to see some first contact with alien races known to Trek and we did. What annoys me more that Enterprise introduced some new aliens, a couple of which were major players like the Xindi and Suliban, and apparently they aren't even worth a footnote in later series.

But that wasn't really my point. It's one thing to show races like the Andorians and Vulcans, who were obviously TOS-created races (which this series was supposed to be a prequel for) and were Federation founders. It's another thing to show TNG races like Ferengi, Borg, Cardassians, etc. so close to Earth space and then have some paper-thin excuses as to why no one ever heard from them again for two centuries.

I know the production order makes retrofitting a new alien race into shows filmed earlier is impossible without special edition editing, but still, having some really significant events introducing aliens nobody knows about later is weird.

And that's exactly why I feel the way I do about the above.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I think the issue here is that the NX-01 encounters an advanced alien race with holodeck technology back in the 22nd century, but by the 24th (specifically the first season of TNG), holodeck technology is treated as if it's brand-new to the entire Federation and Starfleet.

I think it was more the degree of interactive detail and realism that was the novelty there (Riker: "I didn't believe these simulations could be this real"). The NCC-1701 had a more primitive version already in TAS (something that IIRC was actually planned for TOS, but never made it in due to budgetary restrictions).

Just like how Archer saw Ferengi 200 years before Picard made "first contact" with them. Their excuse was that Archer never actually knew the name of their race, but that didn't really matter, because we the audience knew damn well who they were.

I don't see why it's a problem that we the audience knew. We knew who the Romulans were too. Prequels often play on a degree of familiarity with "future" (actually past in real-life terms) events on the part of the audience.

The Borg too.

The Borg were there because of First Contact, and Starfleet having some limited knowledge of them that wasn't widely disseminated prior to TNG is actually consistent with VGR.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't see why it's a problem that we the audience knew. We knew who the Romulans were too. Prequels often play on a degree of familiarity with "future" (actually past in real-life terms) events on the part of the audience.

The audience knew that Romulans would be involved because of the series' closeness chronologically to the Romulan war. And the Romulans were originally from TOS (their TNG movie outfits being a budgetary consideration only.) That's not the same thing at all in comparison to the Ferengi. The show was billed as a prequel to TOS, not TNG.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

The show was billed as a prequel to TOS, not TNG.

Weird distinction. A prequel to TOS is by definition also a prequel to TNG and the other shows.

At the very start of TNG, stories about the Ferengi were already known, and Picard himself had an encounter with them early in his career without knowing it was them. Also, remember that at the end of the ENT episode Archer strongly warned them to stay the hell away from us.

 

[Jinn]

Weird distinction. A prequel to TOS is by definition also a prequel to TNG and the other shows.

Yeah, but the point was that Enterprise should mostly deal with species we know have interacted with Earth at the time. For example the Bolians could have appeared. Also it took me quite some time to think of a TNG species that could be around during the 22nd century and have interacted with Earth, which immediately eliminates the Cardassians, Borg and Ferengi (two of which have been used in Enterprise). IMO the Borg episode was somewhat forgivable since Voyager established that there were rumers about the Borg. Also Q seems like a way better person if he knew that the Borg were coming anyway, when he "introduced" the Borg to the Federation in TNG: "Q Who". It would have been more consistent if the NX-01 wasn't that heavily involved and the Borg remained a myth within the scientific community that started at the expidtion to the North Pole.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Also it took me quite some time to think of a TNG species that could be around during the 22nd century and have interacted with Earth, which immediately eliminates the Cardassians

Was anything ever canonically established about when the Cardassians were first encountered? I don't think so, going from memory. I seem to recall discussion around these parts during the time ENT was on to the effect that they were a possibility.

 

[T'Arwen]

Most of the characters I kind of enjoy, even Archer, who gets slammed a lot. But, the problem for me, was a lack of chemistry. Watching the show, especially "Broken Bow" it all felt very stilted, like the writers felt like they had to be in conflict with one another, but over petty reasons (the dinner scene with Archer, Tucker and T'Pol) being my biggest highlight.

Also, the characters that I felt were the best developed were also the ones who got the least amount of time. Reed and Sato felt far more like 3 dimensional people rather than the one note caricatures.

To be fair, I think Terra Prime worked the best for each of the characters, largely because I think they finally hit their stride. It felt like they had a goal to work towards as a team. This is why I think Enterprise had a lot of potential but, that the lack of chemistry early on, and the lackluster Temporal Clone War left much to be desired.

When you say chemistry, do you mean between the whole crew or some pairs? I didn't have my shipper lenses on back then but thought Connor and Jolene played well off each other even from the beginning.

Why do you think Reed and Sato were most developed? With both of them, a lot of new information was tacked on at the last minute. Sato being a poker ringleader felt abrupt (and to a lesser extent, Reed being a spy). I feel like the honor should go to Trip, who had the best growth out of anyone.

 

[Dukhat]

Was anything ever canonically established about when the Cardassians were first encountered? I don't think so, going from memory. I seem to recall discussion around these parts during the time ENT was on to the effect that they were a possibility.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Cardassian_history

Weird distinction. A prequel to TOS is by definition also a prequel to TNG and the other shows.

I think you know what I meant.

 

[Jinn]

Was anything ever canonically established about when the Cardassians were first encountered? I don't think so, going from memory. I seem to recall discussion around these parts during the time ENT was on to the effect that they were a possibility.

I might have mixed some stuff from the novels with canon

Nevertheless, by the early 24th century the Cardassians were still largely an unknown entity when initial moves were made to form diplomatic relations with the species. Within the next 20 years of the opening of official diplomacy, peace talks would fail, leading to the Federation-Cardassian War. (TOS comic: "Enter the Wolves"; Star Trek novel: Articles of the Federation)

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Cardassian_history

I scanned that, but didn't see anything that would preclude contact with humans in the 22nd century. Can you be more specific? I see they were in fact mentioned a few times on ENT.

I think you know what I meant.

I don't agree that the series was billed as "not going to include stuff from TNG, only TOS" if that's what you meant. I think that was an expectation imposed by fans, and unfairly so.

 

[Vandervecken]

Just like how Archer saw Ferengi 200 years before Picard made "first contact" with them. Their excuse was that Archer never actually knew the name of their race, but that didn't really matter, because we the audience knew damn well who they were. The Borg too. Suspension of disbelief just seemed to fall apart after awhile.

Doesn't Quark's presence on Terok Nor during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor also throw a monkey wrench into this? He was there for years and long before the events of The Last Outpost and even a few years before the "Battle of Maxia" with the Stargazer. How could the Feds not have plenty of intel on them by the time of those events? It's not like Quark was some hidden super secret either, he'd be in a briefing on day-to-day Terok Nor operations. Which surely a captain would know.

 

[Jinn]

I don't agree that the series was billed as "not going to include stuff from TNG, only TOS" if that's what you meant. I think that was an expectation imposed by fans, and unfairly so.

But still it didn't do a good job at that. The only prequel elements I found in season 1-2 (after a few seconds of looking at the episode titles and remembering) were Andorians, Vulcans, Ferengi, Klingons, Risa and Borg. Season 3 didn't really do anything good in that respect (except if you call stealing episodes from Voyager a prequel). That leaves us with Season 4 which did rather well. They explained where Soongs interest in cybernetics come from (which didn't really needed to be explained but it was still a decent episode arc in my opinion), why Vulcan culture was so different in Enterprise as opossed to the other series, they included the Organians as well as having a decent Romulan War and United Federation of Planets setup and an episode set during TNG. Also Season 4 had the guts to set two episodes entirely in the Mirror Universe and space racism.

 

[Jinn]

Doesn't Quark's presence on Terok Nor during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor also throw a monkey wrench into this? He was there for years and long before the events of The Last Outpost and even a few years before the "Battle of Maxia" with the Stargazer. How could the Feds not have plenty of intel on them by the time of those events? It's not like Quark was some hidden super secret either, he'd be in a briefing on day-to-day Terok Nor operations. Which surely a captain would know.

Maybe they just didn't care. I don't see why they would need intel on the bartender in the first place. And even if they 'discovered' that by spying on the Cardassians they would have to admit that and I don't think that such a trivial information would be worth blowing their spys covers.

 

[Dukhat]

Doesn't Quark's presence on Terok Nor during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor also throw a monkey wrench into this? He was there for years and long before the events of The Last Outpost and even a few years before the "Battle of Maxia" with the Stargazer. How could the Feds not have plenty of intel on them by the time of those events? It's not like Quark was some hidden super secret either, he'd be in a briefing on day-to-day Terok Nor operations. Which surely a captain would know.

Quark gave every indication that he had either little or no contact with "hew-mons" until Starfleet took over DS9. He knew hardly anything about the Federation and what he did know seemed to be just propaganda.

I don't agree that the series was billed as "not going to include stuff from TNG, only TOS" if that's what you meant. I think that was an expectation imposed by fans, and unfairly so.

What I meant is that if the show was going to be advertised as taking place 100 years before TOS, then don't write scripts or use aliens that would have worked as VOY episodes. It's as simple as that. I felt the show took far more cues from TNG and VOY than it ever did from TOS. That, IMHO, is not how you make a realistic prequel.

 

[fireproof78]

When you say chemistry, do you mean between the whole crew or some pairs? I didn't have my shipper lenses on back then but thought Connor and Jolene played well off each other even from the beginning.

Why do you think Reed and Sato were most developed? With both of them, a lot of new information was tacked on at the last minute. Sato being a poker ringleader felt abrupt (and to a lesser extent, Reed being a spy). I feel like the honor should go to Trip, who had the best growth out of anyone.

Both, really. I don't ship characters as a general rule, and I try to avoid romances between characters.

Also, this is more my initial feelings from early on. Watching the crew interact early felt very stilted and conflict for the sake of conflict. That isn't chemistry where there is conflict because of personality but conflict for the sake of Drama!

As for Reed, I felt like his growth was more organic. It felt like he was a seasoned officer who had experience and we later find out what that background is and how it impacts his growth.

Sato starts out feeling like a fish out of water, and is actively afraid of different encounters the crew has early on, which feels very natural.

I think Trip, later on, had some decent growth, but it didn't feel organic from where he started out. I can't explain more than it didn't feel like it paid off in a meaningful way.

 

[mattman8907]

I'm re-watching the episode Judgment where Archer is on trial by the Klingons and they never did mention how Archer got captured by the Klingons in the first place. we just see him on trial. talk about a big goof.

 

[T'Arwen]

Both, really. I don't ship characters as a general rule, and I try to avoid romances between characters.

Also, this is more my initial feelings from early on. Watching the crew interact early felt very stilted and conflict for the sake of conflict. That isn't chemistry where there is conflict because of personality but conflict for the sake of Drama!

As for Reed, I felt like his growth was more organic. It felt like he was a seasoned officer who had experience and we later find out what that background is and how it impacts his growth.

Sato starts out feeling like a fish out of water, and is actively afraid of different encounters the crew has early on, which feels very natural.

I think Trip, later on, had some decent growth, but it didn't feel organic from where he started out. I can't explain more than it didn't feel like it paid off in a meaningful way.

For Trip and T'Pol, I wasn't only talking about romance. I was also referring to 2 people who initially didn't like each other and later formed a friendship. The point is that even some non-shippers saw good chemistry between the two.

To clarify, I liked Sato's development from wuss to a brave officer willing to do anything to protect her crew. It's just that the revelations of her past in Observer Effect felt forced. It was telling, not showing. For Reed, it wasn't as much of a shock to find out he was a spy since he was so reserved. But it still felt like a last-minute attempt to make him interesting.

As for Trip's development, the only way I can think of that it wouldn't be meaningful is if you take TATV as canon. But most of us don't. It's hard to believe that it wouldn't feel organic when he got so much screen time. I hear over and over again on this boards and Trek FM how much Trip has grown and they have nothing but good things to say about it. That tends to happen with arguably the most popular character on the show. So your opinion about him is probably in the minority.

 

[Richard Baker]

I'm re-watching the episode Judgment where Archer is on trial by the Klingons and they never did mention how Archer got captured by the Klingons in the first place. we just see him on trial. talk about a big goof.

I just watched that story myself and I don't think that not showing him being captured was a problem. It didn't detract from the main story which was Archer on trial- we did see events which were evidence on why he was on trial and from both sides as well.
We also never saw how he got to Rura Penthe or how Reed got there to free him. I think instead of a goof this was an intentional judgement call by the writer to declutter the main story and focus on what is important to it. Too often we are guided by the nose through every step of every moment in a show/movie and are not given credit to connect the dots ourselves or let a bridging moment be assumed. The Tom Cruise film 'Night and Day' is an excellent example on how the director can move the scene along without showing every A-to-B-to-C detail.