Did JJ ruin Kirk?

[fireproof78]

Sure, he does seem to have decided to not try and undo the accident (for whatever reason). This's where it gets murky for me, since the answer why this is in real life is that Paramount wants to make movies set in this timeline, so it can't be erased, but the "in-universe" question as to why Spock decides to leave alone aren't answered. Also, I didn't read anything about his reactions as suggesting that this was an "unusual" time travel trip, but that could be subjective.

It is subjective, but I also took that he isn't trying to "fix" it, as most episodes would do, as a sign that this is an alternate reality and not an altered time.

I'm afraid I don't remember any specific instances, although I know there have been some. The only point I'm going on is that of the various time travel stories (regardless of the differences in the temporal mechanics and theories to reconcile them), one detail that seems consistent is that time travel always changes the main timeline and never creates parallel universes; With the exception of "In a Mirror, Darkly," (ENT), parallel universe stories never use time travel, just inter-dimensional travel in real time. In all time travel stories, the characters are either trying to fix damage to history or change history to their benefit, plans that wouldn't be needed or work if time travel created parallel universes.

I think it boils down to it being something new, and does previous time travel stories allow for it. Some would argue "No" as you seem to be stating, but I see no reason that it's precluded, just because it's never happened before.

This is off the top of my head of tools utilized for time travel-Guardian of Forever, slingshot around the sun, a "black star," an alien library, to name a brief few, and that's from TOS.

So, because that seems to be one of the set rules of Star Trek time travel that's not broken, for this movie to say: "This time, it created a parallel universe where all the changes happen," I think there needs to be an explanation why that is beyond: "They went through a homemade black hole."

This link goes to an essay that a fan wrote on the movie's time travel model. I generally agree with his assessments.

Why? Why is slingshoting around the sun and using its gravity sufficient, but not an artificially created singularity, grown quickly, and who's gravity might be unstable?

I don't think so. The black hole was the method of time travel somehow (which never made that much sense, since all the dialogue seemed to suggest that it was a "normal" black hole and not a special one that would do unusual stuff). The red matter was only the mechanism for creating the black hole. By the time the black hole was made, the red matter was gone.

I just didn't feel like it was explained enough why this black hole could allow time travel by itself and create a parallel universe, esp. since time travel creating a parallel universe is something new. It may not be impossible, but if you're telling me that there's an exception to the rules, I'd like to know why the exception is happening here.



See above for my counter. If the technobabble had been explained, I might've been more receptive to it, since I didn't feel like the movie explained how things worked, which is a big no-no in sci-fi stories like this.

I think it's a matter of subjectivity. Even in the article you linked to, there was a lot of supposition by the author, which is fine. For me, the red matter is a new variable that is the unknown. Gravity has been used in time travel before, so that's a nonissue. The issue seems to be it being a new quantum reality, which, to me, occurs do to the intensity of the gravity produced by an artificial singularity, and possibly impacted by the mass of the Narada going through.

Sorry, I don't get it.

In the video game "Fallout" you "repair" something and the sound of duct tape is heard. Presumably, you just took one item and duct taped a similar item to fix it.

In this case, I didn't feel like it was being extrapolated in a way that made sense. All the alternate realities we've seen before were not made through time travel, so suddenly saying that it happens without explaining the how or why is off-putting for me.

Ok. I don't know if there is any explanation that will work then.

Okay.

True, but the others made more effort at holding together. The Abrams movies claim to be a branching off timeline, but then don't take that into account when writing the stories. Had it been a clean, TMNT-style reboot, then I wouldn't be complaining, since the series is, intentionally or otherwise, saying "We're part of the original continuity by way of a new timeline," but then reject the obligations that that decision entails.

This ignores any potential in-universe changes in attitudes, technology and society due to the incursion.

And I do agree that a clean reboot would have been better.

I think this one crosses the line from pacing problem to raising plot holes. Case in point, in Abrams' own The Force Awakens, there's not a lot of travel time for the Falcon from the Rathtar ship to Takodana. But, unlike the Trek movies, it's kept vague enough that we can assume that more travel time happened off-screen (in fact, we have canonical confirmation of that fact, since Rey's Survival Guide establishes that Rey was writing in a journal en route to Takodana, which we don't see in the movie proper).

Ok, so it takes an novel to explain a plot hole?

I'm not being allowed to write a long enough post, so I'll have to attach a list of examples separately.

Yeah, that's going to take me a while to reply to.

I think I agree with this outcome, but prefer a different model of mechanics for explaining how it happens, and since the movie doesn't go into the details, that does give us all the freedom to speculate and come up with the answers that we think best fit the clues. So, I can't say that you're wrong, just that I think the other means fit the franchise's internal rules better (albeit in a much more convoluted way).

I think there's a new variable introduced.

Well, in my case, I don't think the background details add up, so I'm questioning them on that regard. Also, since the Abrams series is so different from the rest of the franchise and is not making any effort to be consistent with previous material (in regards to technobabble, for example), some people are going to poke at it a bit more. In my case, I'm trying to use the same standards I evaluate the rest of the stuff to examine the reboot series.

I don't think we have enough information to make determination from an in-world perspective, so authorial intent also needs to factor in.

Oh. I don't see why it would be awkward, esp. since the timeline wasn't actually named after Mr. Abrams grandfather and, while I'm not a big fan of the name, it does work and makes it clear which version of the franchise is being discussed, more so than "alternate reality," which could describe just about anything in the franchise.

How can you not like a name like "Kelvin?"

Thanks, I'll have to take a look at that.

No problem.

 

[fireproof78]

Due to tech problems, this's a continuation of my previous post. Sorry about any rules violations; I'm just trying to get all my text uploaded.



fireproof78 said: ↑

Also, aside from cartography (which is more a matter of speed of plot to me) what other aspects of continuity is Abrams' Trek ignoring?



Me:



Star Trek (2009) mistakes



- I disagree with the time travel model the movie uses (at least the model that the filmmakers have said it uses). The official explanation is that all time travel is controlled by Hugh Everett's "many worlds" theory. The theory, as applied to science fiction, is that when ever a time traveler time travels, his actions generate a new timeline which branches off from the old one. So, for all practical purposes, the traveler always ends up in the past or future of a different parallel universe, while their own carries on without them. Such an interpretation would explain how the alternate reality movies can coexist with mainstream Star Trek, but the many worlds model isn't how time travel works in the Star Trek universe. For example, episodes like "The City on the Edge of Forever" [TOS] and "Yesterday's Enterprise" [TNG] show that Star Trek time travel doesn't create parallel universes (if that were so, then history wouldn't have been changed around the characters as it did).



Unfortunately, that means that the movie's altered timeline overwrites the original one. Although stories were whole sections of the timeline (usually the far future) are erased ("Timeless" [VOY] and "Twilight" [ENT] are two of my favorites), the idea that most of Star Trek never "really" happened is not a very encouraging thought.



But, given that much of the Star Trek multiverse is made of different quantum realities created when there is more than one possible outcome of events, at which point the universe in question diverges ("Parallels" [TNG]), it's a reasonable assumption that the two Star Trek timelines coexist through this principle; Nero and Spock's trip through the red matter black hole was the event with more than one outcome; it created a universe where they were thrown back in time, which was the alternate realty; and another where they didn't, which was the continuation of the original timeline.This model would follow the filmmaker's intentions of creating a new Star Trek continuity that ran parallel to the original but still follow the series' general rules of time travel.



In fact, in the Vulcan school scene, a student can be heard reciting the following Q and A: “What is the central assumption of Quantum Cosmology? Everything that can happen does happen in equal and parallel universes." Although that comment hard to reconcile with the fact that quantum theory was theoretical until the timeframe of "Parallels," it's some canon evidence for my theory, or at the very least of the coexistence of mainstream and J.J. Abrams Star Trek minus the many worlds theory.

New variable of the red matter. The “Many Worlds” model exists within Trek lore, which means whatever means are used to create quantum realities are impacted by the artificial gravitational effect of growing so quickly.



As you say, it has precedent, even if it hasn’t been explored in Trek cosmology. So, it shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.



Also, as a second point, if the Prime Timeline no longer exists, then not only does Spock Prime have a motivation to go back and fix the mistake, but all the other Star Trek shows involving such scenarios make it a necessity. The fact that Spock Prime doesn’t try to go back indicates that this doesn’t fall under the usual time travel rules. It feels like it is treated far more like a Mirror Universe type situation.

- The officers assigned to the Kelvin are wearing an Enterprise-style insignia despite the fact that in 2233 each starship had its own insignia, not to mention that the uniforms existed before time timeline change. (I suspect the costuming department wanted an obvious Starfleet insignia to avoid confusing new fans, and we're supposed to assume that Starfleet had redesigned and reassigned the Kelvin insignia to the Enterprise in the prime universe.)



A variation of the problem has the characters during the main part of the movie wearing a version of the TV show uniform in a timeframe when the turtlenecked uniforms from "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" [TOS] were in use. (Apparently Starfleet apparel was some how influenced by the Kelvin's encounter with Nero.)

This is an assumption about the delta insignia that doesn’t necessarily follow. First of all, we don’t know when the Enterprise was assigned the delta. For all we know, the Kelvin had it, was retired, and the insignia was assigned to the Enterprise.



Secondly, the concept of one ship, one duty patch, is actually one that is controversial from a production standpoint, since internal memos actually reflect that the patches are supposed to be used across Starfleet, not strictly for the Enterprise.



You find it odd that Starfleet would be impacted by the Narada attack? That things wouldn’t change? Personally, I see the Narada attack as a 9/11-esque impact, that Starfleet policy would change, becoming far more concerned about future attacks. This means, that rather than things being at a standstill, that Starfleet would emphasize different facets (defense, weapons design, intelligence on Romulans).



I partially agree that it would have been nice to see Cage-esque uniforms, but the Kelvin uniforms also feel like they derive from the jumpsuits of ENT so it works either way.

- Circumstantial evidence from ENT, "The Cage," and "Obsession" (TOS) strongly suggest that the Kelvin should have had either phase cannons or lasers instead of phasers.

Well, the effect reminded me of the phase cannon test from ENT so not sure on this one

- When George Kirk pilots the Kelvin into the Narada at impulse, the ship is clearly being propelled by the warp nacelle. Not only is that impossible, since the Kelvin is clearly not going at warp speed, but the warp drive was disabled by the Narada's first salvo, anyway!

Minor quibble. Feels like when the torpedoes are fired from the phaser bank in other effects shots.

- In the Kobayashi Maru scene, McCoy says the simulated Klingon ships are Klingon Warbirds (a ship mentioned but not seen in "Broken Bow" [ENT]), while the bridge's windows shows K't'tinga-class battle cruisers.

An acceptable error from a non-line officer.

- If the Narada’s arrival in 2233 created a parallel universe, then Spock’s arrival in 2258 also created a parallel universe, meaning that the latter half of the movie is set in a completely different reality. The movie basically ignores its own time travel rules (that may or may not even be correct to the franchise in the first place).

The rules are just fine-they have a new variable. It could be argued that the gravitational distortion of the Narada pulled the Jellyfish with it.

- One of the biggest plot holes in the movie is where Kirk explains to Pike that, according to the evidence in Pike's dissertation on the attack on the Kelvin from the movie's prologue, the Romulan ship that attacked the Klingons offscreen was the same ship that destroyed the Kelvin (and is currently attacking Vulcan). However, they could not have realized that the Narada was a Romulan ship since that would have been their first encounter with them. "Balance of Terror" (TOS) makes it very clear that the Federation had no idea who the Romulans are and "The Enterprise Incident" (TOS) notes that Vulcan and Romulan biosigns are so much alike that the Kelvin survivors should have thought that they were attacked by rogue Vulcans, or at least Vulcanoids, which they would not have connected to the Romulans.





Also, Uhura's claims to know all three Roman dialects is not very likely, given how little the Federation learned about the Romulans over three centuries ("The Defector" [TNG], Nemesis). A related linguistic problem; the suggestion that Romulan is easily mistaken for Vulcan is disproved by "Minefield" (ENT), where Sato (who is Uhura's better at linguistics) doesn't notice this.



(It's possible that the Federation learned more about the Romulans after 2233 in this timeline, but that should have been explained. The non-canon novelization by Alan Dean Foster – based on older drafts of the script – has the Federation know about the Romulans since before the movie began, in direct violation of "Balance of Terror," so it seems that the movie was written under a faulty premise.)

The Federation had no idea what Romulans looked like. That could have perhaps been made more clear, but it could be argued, since they had subspace radio communications (how else was the treaty negotiated?) that the Federation would be familiar with their language and the different dialects.



I don’t recall any confusion between Romulan and Vulcan languages, but I could be wrong.



Also, a lot of things could have had a better explanation. Unfortunately, a real world writer’s strike prevented any additional edits.

- "Delta Vega" is used as the name for a planetoid in Vulcan's star system despite the fact that Delta Vega was an aired planet located near the edge of the galaxy, as seen in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (TOS). (The name was reused as inside-joke for Trekkies [Memory Alpha]. Presumably, the Delta Vega featured in this movie was named after the original one, vice versa, or was named after the creation of the alternate reality. Although it can be explained logically, I hate this oddity.)

It was a stupid callback, nothing more.

- Chekov says he's seventeen years old during the movie (as of 2258), meaning that he was born in 2241. However, in "Who Mourns For Adonais?" (TOS), Chekov says that he was twenty-two (as of 2267), which would mean that he was born in 2245! That strongly suggests that the new Chekov is in fact a different person with the same name, which would explain his radically different appearance and why he's suddenly a "whiz kid.”



However, Chekov being a teenage commissioned Starlet officer doesn’t mesh with how the situation was handled for fellow wiz kid Wesly Crusher on TNG, who was only an acting ensign until he was old enough to qualify for the Academy.

Again, different culture and different times. If Starfleet was concerned about an attack at any moment by an unknown Romulan invader, thenthey might be on the look out for potential recruits.



But, the likelihood that they are 100% exactly the same, given the date of birth, but it could be argued that the planned society of the Federation might allow couples to conceive and then put the baby in cryo. In this timeline, Chekov’s parents might have decided to have children sooner.



As for the “whiz kid” while Chekov may not have been a genius, he also wasn’t dumb. In TOS, he often subs in at Mr. Spock’s station and offers theories on different events.



His age is a quibble, but, again, minor to enjoyment of the film.

- Scotty and Kirk could not have beamed from Delta Vega to the Enterprise, even with the transwarp beaming formula (which refers to beaming over to another ship while in warp, not the advanced transwarp drive propulsion from Star Trek III onwards). First of all, the distance was roughly sixteen lightyears ("Home" [ENT]), which is out of range of the movie's era transporters and the transporters of Ambassador Spock's era. And even if we granted that extensive range, they couldn't have beamed through the Enterprise's shields.

Where the shields up?



Also, and not trying to be argumentative, but what limits are being placed on the transporters? Based upon what information?

- Spock convinces Kirk to bring him with to the mission on the Narada by stating that he’ll be useful since Romulans and Vulcans have cultural similarities. This incorrectly assumes that the Federation is very knowledgable about the Romulans, when in fact this is their second face-to-face encounter and the first one was where they have learned what the Romulans looked like. "Balance of Terror" (TOS) is explicit that the Federation learned almost nothing about the Romulans during their war. Spock, therefore, has no reason to believe that the Romulans have a similar culture to the Vulcans. In fact, multiple Star Trek episodes prove that that is not the case.

It suggests nothing of the sort, beyond the fact that Spock has seen Nero, and has made a logical hypothesis about their origins.



Also, it isn’t a cultural similarity Spock refers to. He calls it a “common ancestry.”

- Kirk's promotion from cadet to captain and assignment to Starfleet's flagship still doesn’t make any sense to me in regards to what we know about Starfleet from the rest of the franchise, but that’s been discussed to death already.

Could have been done better, but Kirk was also field promoted, so I can live with it.

 

[fireproof78]

Double posting due to length.

Into Darkness mistakes



- The movie starts with the Enterprise crew breaking the Prime Directive by not only letting the Nibiru population see their starship, but also by stopping the volcano from erupting. Now, throughout Star Trek, it varies if comparable situation to the latter are considered violations of the Prime Directive or not, but Pike and Starfleet clearly considered to be so in this case. This fits with a 24th century version of it, but not a 23rd century one ("A Taste of Armageddon" [TOS], "Flashback" [VGR]).

(Also, Pike's dressing down of them -- and indeed, the whole point of those scenes -- works since Spock is completely inflexible to violating the Prime Directive under any circumstances. The problem is, in that case, he would not have helped defuse the volcano in the first place!)

Given the negative impact on the culture of actually seeing the Enterprise, as detailed in Spock’s report, would be regarded as a massive violation, akin to Kirk’s condemnation of Captain Tracey’s behavior in “The Omega Glory.”



I think Spock was willing to go along with the plan, and then things went wrong. Spock was willing to die so that the culture wasn’t contaminated.



I really want the Nibiru sequence to be its own film.

- Khan's usage of Scotty's confiscated transwarp beaming formula to transport himself from Earth to Qo'noS is impossible. In Star Trek (2009), Scotty said that the formula would allow beaming to planets in adjacent solar systems, which Earth and Qo'noS are not in. Also, if the formula worked as presented in the movie, then starships are practically obsolete except for specific circumstances.

I don’t think starships would be eliminated, any more than other forms of travel have been gone by the wayside because of trains or cars or some other invention.



Also, and it could have been explicated more, but there is no reason to believe that Khan didn’t have some sort of relay system designed to allow his transport to be carried further, or that the initial beaming was done to another S31 facility and then on to Qo’noS.

- Marcus's plan to eliminate Khan depends on Qo'noS being located precisely on the edge of their border with the Federation, which wouldn't be the case, given the Klingon's imperialism due to a resource-poor homeworld (“Day of the Dove" [TOS]), and confirmed in the extended versions of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

Not sure how that interpretation works, given that we don’t have a precise indication of where the Enterprise is in relationship to Qo’noS. So, that is a difficult judgment to make.

- As her cover, Carol Marcus passes herself off as a science officer (probably an in-joke reference to her original career in Star Trek II), therefore wearing a blue uniform. However, she was, in fact, a weapons expert. As such, when she was assigned to the Enterprise for real at the end of the movie, she should have been wearing a red uniform.

There is no indication that she continued on as a weapon’s officer, since her training is in theoretical physics as well. Though, personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing an episode where Marcus is chief of security or something like that.

- Scotty's warning that firing a missile of unknown properties could cause problems and destroy the ship does not make sense in comparison to all the other Star Trek stories I've seen, although I will grant that I can't cite a specific source to prove it. Also, why is the chief engineer, not the tactical officer, signing for them anyways? And, when Scotty resigns, Kirk's decision to give Chekov the job is very wrong. The assistant chief engineer, or the highest ranking engineering officer would be promoted.

Two points-one, a captain can assign whomever he wants, especially in TOS. We have seen more senior ranking, but less experienced, officers attempt to take command of the Enterprise too.

Secondly, Kirk obviously wanted a yes man on his quest for revenge. So, Chekov makes sense.

- When examining the Augments in the torpedos, McCoy notes that the stasis tubes they're in are "ancient." That implication, that the Augments are in the original tubes that they were frozen in when they left Earth back in 1996, is reinforced by Khan's claim that he was the only one thawed out by Section 31. Unfortunately, the Botany Bay's stasis chambers were shelves built into the wall, not free-standing units ("Space Seed" [TOS]), and, as their freezing predates the timeline divergence, this is the same in this movie. It's possible that the Augment "popsicles" were moved to different portable units by Khan or Section 31during their brief collaboration, but that would conflict with the fact that the tubes were ancient (and why didn't Khan let his people thaw out and collaborate on their escape together?).





One explanation would be that the Botany Bay had extra stasis tubes in storage, but that raises the question why the crew would pack extra units that would be unnecessary after they reached whatever destination they originally had in mind.



(A related gaffe is that McCoy notes that cryogenic freezing was common before warp drive, which is not only a little at odds with facts from "The Neutral Zone" [TNG] and "11:59" [VOY], but also with the fact that sleeper ships were rendered obsolete decades before warp drive was invented ["Space Seed," First Contact]. The Star Trek Chronology states that the advance was in sublight propulsion.)

Unless Khan utilized older technology to ensure their survival.

- The movie asserts that Section 31 found Khan, got him to work for them, designed the new torpedoes and the Vengeance, and actually built that monstrosity all within the year between Into Darkness and Star Trek (2009). The latter detail is hard to believe; Enterprise NX-01 took years to build ("First Flight" [ENT]) and the alternate reality Enterprise was built in more than three (in Star Trek [2009], we see the mostly complete ship under construction three years before it was launched). And those ships were substantially smaller than the Vengeance. There's no way that the Vengeance could have been built in such a short amount of time (and remember that there were no replicators in the twenty-third century ["Flashback" (VOY)]). I would also love to know how Section 31 keep their shipyard near Jupiter secret from whatever version of Jupiter Station (from Silent Enemy" [ENT], "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" [DS9], “Life Line” [VGR], et al) was active at the time.

Well, it is possible that Marcus commandeered Jupiter Station for his shipyard, or as a listening post for S31.



I honestly think that Marcus had the concept of the Vengeance, perhaps in line with a TOS Constitution class, but much larger, and more of a dreadnaught. He had the pieces coming together, and components prepped to begin assembly. Then, the Narada attacked, and Earth was shown to be massively underprepared to fight such threats, and he upped his timetable.

- Khan's repeated comparison of his followers to his family doesn't really mesh up with the original Khan, who, while generally taking their well-being into consideration (and even respecting the one in Wrath of Khan who kept naysaying the whole revenge business out of loyalty), nevertheless considered them subjects who had sword to live and die by his orders.

It may have been a sentiment concealed when Khan was more in control, but betrayed when Marcus’ had a gun to his head.

- When Khan demands that Spock beams his popsicle crew to the Vengeance, the Augment comments that he and the crew will "Continue the work we were doing before [they] were banished." Spock retorts: "Which, as I would understand it, involves the mass genocide of any being you find to be less than superior." The writers of the movie clearly didn't understand the Khan character, since Spock's statement flies in the face of what "Space Seed" (TOS) established about Khan's "work" on 20th century Earth (my emphasis):







So, was Kahn a dictator with many crimes to his name who needed to be brought to justice? Yes. Was he campaigning the mass genocide of any being he found to be less than superior? No.



- When bargaining with Spock for his frozen crew, Khan warns him that if Spock doesn't cooperate, he'll "target [their] life support systems located behind the aft nacelle…" (my emphasis). The Enterprise has two nacelles and both are located aft, so Khan's speech is meaningless. I'm not even sure if life support is located there, anyway, given that the aft of the Enterprise is where the shuttlebay is located.

Yeah, it’s a stupid line. Sounds better when Cumberbatch says it



As for Spock’s description, I have a theory, and granted, it is only my theory, since I haven’t read any of the novelverse material about Khan. You quote mentioned that he would only start wars if provoked. Fair enough, but that doesn’t say how he waged war. He may have left other nations alone, until they began fighting him, and then he annihilated them.



Does it completely line up? No, but I figure Spock was grandstanding and Khan was deterred by it.

- Scotty's complaint that everything’s a mess after he’s gone one day would appear to indicate that the Enterprise went to Qo'noS from Earth, waited around, and was chased back to Earth again by the Vengeance all within twenty-four hours. Bear in mind that it took Enterprise NX-01 four days to go from Earth to Qo'noS without any detours, which is considered to be too little travel time as it is (see the entry on "Broken Bow" [ENT]). Granted, that was a century ago and alternate reality Starfleet may have far more advanced warp technology than its prime universe counterpart, but there's still no way that the entire mission to capture Khan and subsequent conflict with the Vengeance took place in a single day; there's far too much happening (there's also the problem of why the Klingons didn't find the Enterprise during the period of time it was stuck near their borders, but that's another story).

That’s a rather literal way to read the line, seeing as how I read it as hyperbolic.

- During the climax, where Spock persues Khan through San Francisco, the idea that they can't beam up Khan because he's on the move conflicts with the fact that the Vengeance was able to beam Carol Marcus off the Enterprise even when she moved. Even more glaringly, in Star Trek (2009), Kirk and Sulu were beamed up in the middle of a free-fall and were moving much faster than Khan was. Finally, if they couldn't beam Khan up, they shouldn't have been able to beam Uhura onto the flying craft where the fight was (and if they could, they should have just beamed Khan back into his cell via a site-to-site transport).

Chekov calculated for the mismatch in freefall in 2009, and he wasn’t available to help in ID.

- Whenever the Enterprise is seen in subspace, it looks like it's traveling through an energy tunnel. That visual is inconsistent with everything we known about subspace and warp travel from every other piece of non-J.J. Abrams-made Star Trek (I strongly suspect that Abrams' rather foolishly aped the hyperspace effect from Star Wars, not realizing that the tunnel effect means slipstream drive – from "Hope and Fear" and "Timeless" [VOY] – or transwarp drive conduits – from "Descent, Parts I and II" [TNG], et al. – both of which are way beyond twenty-third century Federation science).



Even worse, whenever the Enterprise jumps to warp, we see it streaking away with no tunnel effect, thus making the movie inconstant with itself and the (already-incorrect) warp effect from Star Trek (2009)! (Also Kirk would know better than to think that the Vengeance couldn't catch up to them while they were at warp; that's Star Wars-style thinking again.)

I don’t see it as a problem. I think this is subjective reading in to the effect, rather than authorial intent.

- When Kirk ends his speech by talking about the captain's oath, he concludes with: "And now those words [of the Oath]," but the next lines are a modified version of the "Space the Final Frontier" monologue from TOS, not an oath.



(Some fans my counter-argue that the monologue is the oath, since "Equinox, Part I" [VOY] mentions that the captain's oath includes promising to "seek out new life" – a part of the monologue – but I'll remind you that the monologue makes no sense as an oath. Anyways, aside from circumstantial evidence in "Broken Bow" (ENT), there's no evidence that the monologue actually exists as a real speech in the Star Trek universe; it may be purely non-diegetic.)

I don’t think it’s the oath, but I also don’t think that the writers wanted to have Kirk reciting it either.

- Before setting off on their five year mission, Spock notes that no other starship has gone on so long a mission. That statement is in error, since not only were mission of that length common enough in this time frame (per background material in the Star Trek Chronology), but Enterprise NX-01 was in space for ten years ("These Are the Voyages…" [ENT]), albeit over at least two missions with a refit in-between ("The Expanse" [ENT]).

Ten years at a time? Again, this feels like reading a literal interpretation in to these words without consideration for what the NX-01’s missions involved (refits, stopovers, etc).



Also, which version of the Chronology, since I have about 3?

 

[JKM]

A few more comments that popped into my brain..

Also, Uhura's claims to know all three Roman dialects is not very likely, given how little the Federation learned about the Romulans over three centuries ("The Defector" [TNG], Nemesis). A related linguistic problem; the suggestion that Romulan is easily mistaken for Vulcan is disproved by "Minefield" (ENT), where Sato (who is Uhura's better at linguistics) doesn't notice this.

(It's possible that the Federation learned more about the Romulans after 2233 in this timeline, but that should have been explained. The non-canon novelization by Alan Dean Foster – based on older drafts of the script – has the Federation know about the Romulans since before the movie began, in direct violation of "Balance of Terror," so it seems that the movie was written under a faulty premise.)

Not all the Star Trek variations mesh with each other on these kind of facts. ENT which you reference doesn't even mesh up with TOS as they discuss Pon Farr numerous times openly and in TOS the federation doctors nor Starfleet knew anything about it. Also its funny you reference the ENT show Minefield, if in the past 100 years the federation had similar encounters with Romulans they very well could have recorded three dialects in that time without learning much more about appearance.

- One of the biggest plot holes in the movie is where Kirk explains to Pike that, according to the evidence in Pike's dissertation on the attack on the Kelvin from the movie's prologue, the Romulan ship that attacked the Klingons offscreen was the same ship that destroyed the Kelvin (and is currently attacking Vulcan). However, they could not have realized that the Narada was a Romulan ship since that would have been their first encounter with them. "Balance of Terror" (TOS) makes it very clear that the Federation had no idea who the Romulans are and "The Enterprise Incident" (TOS) notes that Vulcan and Romulan biosigns are so much alike that the Kelvin survivors should have thought that they were attacked by rogue Vulcans, or at least Vulcanoids, which they would not have connected to the Romulans.

Two things this could be. One, they know they are Romulan because they were speaking in Romulan. ENT used this method in various ways, but basically if they were speaking to an alien and understood him it was because of the universal translator. And Two, while Captain Robau was aboard Nero's ship all aboard the Kelvin were watching the main screen with his vitals, what's to say there wasn't audio also. While they are leading him to Nero you can hear a crew member on a console with "chattering in Romulan" if the subtitles are on.

Also the Klingons could have encountered the Romulan's before and called them Romulans in the comms Uhura picked up so I guess that makes three things. That could be why Kirk went to specifically ask her if the attack was by Romulans.

- Khan's repeated comparison of his followers to his family doesn't really mesh up with the original Khan, who, while generally taking their well-being into consideration (and even respecting the one in Wrath of Khan who kept naysaying the whole revenge business out of loyalty), nevertheless considered them subjects who had sword to live and die by his orders.

I believe they call this 'Manipulation' on Khan's part. I certainly never took him seriously, especially with the forced blink to force a tear on his face before he turned around to face Kirk and Spock.

- Spock convinces Kirk to bring him with to the mission on the Narada by stating that he’ll be useful since Romulans and Vulcans have cultural similarities. This incorrectly assumes that the Federation is very knowledgable about the Romulans, when in fact this is their second face-to-face encounter and the first one was where they have learned what the Romulans looked like. "Balance of Terror" (TOS) is explicit that the Federation learned almost nothing about the Romulans during their war. Spock, therefore, has no reason to believe that the Romulans have a similar culture to the Vulcans. In fact, multiple Star Trek episodes prove that that is not the case.

See above on how they could know Romulan's and how they knew they looked like Vulcans. Because of the Kelvin attack the Federation may have made finding out more about them a priority.

When Khan demands that Spock beams his popsicle crew to the Vengeance, the Augment comments that he and the crew will "Continue the work we were doing before [they] were banished." Spock retorts: "Which, as I would understand it, involves the mass genocide of any being you find to be less than superior." The writers of the movie clearly didn't understand the Khan character, since Spock's statement flies in the face of what "Space Seed" (TOS) established about Khan's "work" on 20th century Earth (my emphasis):

But not in the face of what Khan did to Prime Kirk and his crew ala Wrath of Khan. He certainly has no problems whacking ppl off who stand in his way, like the scientist he killed when they wouldn't tell him about Genesis. What do you think he would do to anyone who wouldn't submit to him, aka the Federation.

 

[suarezguy]

I think the first film is only the first step-that of Kirk learning his place in the Federation, his destiny, as Spock would put it. But, as much as I love ST 09, no, I don't think Kirk is ready to be Captain. And guess what? We see that consequence the next film.

He and the filmmakers didn't seem too regretful about his actions, though-it felt like the filmmakers wanted us to accept his intervention in the initial planet and, while lying about it wasn't a good thing, favor him lying over Spock reporting it (how dare he). Later he decides to rise above his desire for personal vengeance by just capturing and taking in Khan but that seems to be presented as a mistake since Khan is able to escape being captive or subdued.

 

[WebLurker]

It is subjective, but I also took that he isn't trying to "fix" it, as most episodes would do, as a sign that this is an alternate reality and not an altered time.

This one so blurs the line between the in-universe story and the real life reason that he can't undo the Abramsverse, that I'm not sure what to make of it, since Spock Prime would do the same thing regardless of whether it fit or not.

I think it boils down to it being something new, and does previous time travel stories allow for it. Some would argue "No" as you seem to be stating, but I see no reason that it's precluded, just because it's never happened before.

This is off the top of my head of tools utilized for time travel-Guardian of Forever, slingshot around the sun, a "black star," an alien library, to name a brief few, and that's from TOS.
Why? Why is slingshoting around the sun and using its gravity sufficient, but not an artificially created singularity, grown quickly, and who's gravity might be unstable?

The red matter wasn't designed to be a time machine, so all time travel properties it has are accidental. While your comment about gravity from stars being a previous time travel device was a very good point, those methods still do not create parallel universes when time traveling. That's the big hangup for me. How does that work and does it fit with the Star Trek time travel model?

I think it's a matter of subjectivity. Even in the article you linked to, there was a lot of supposition by the author, which is fine. For me, the red matter is a new variable that is the unknown. Gravity has been used in time travel before, so that's a nonissue. The issue seems to be it being a new quantum reality, which, to me, occurs do to the intensity of the gravity produced by an artificial singularity, and possibly impacted by the mass of the Narada going through.

Okay. I'll admit I'm not sure I entirely agree with your explanation, but your reasoning seems well-thought out. I still can't get past the now time travel creates a parallel universe thing, since I can't see how even the red matter could do that.

In the video game "Fallout" you "repair" something and the sound of duct tape is heard. Presumably, you just took one item and duct taped a similar item to fix it.

That's great.

Ok. I don't know if there is any explanation that will work then.

Maybe I'm being picky, but since the people making the movie have stated that the timeline branches off the old one, I think it's fair to point out when the movie is inconsistent with it's own premise, since that backstory means that the laws of physics would be the same in both versions.

This ignores any potential in-universe changes in attitudes, technology and society due to the incursion.

I don't have a problem with some of the differences (from a canon standpoint), just ones that I feel wouldn't be affected by the accident.

Ok, so it takes an novel to explain a plot hole?

I didn't say it was a plot hole, I was commenting that a theory I had about Force Awakens was supported by another canonical source, in this case, a tie-in book. On a second read-through of this point, the mention of the book was a tangent to my main point; I think Abrams did a better job in Force Awakens of keeping travel time to a minimum but still editing it that it felt like more time had passed off-camera, where that didn't come across in his Trek movies.

I think there's a new variable introduced.

But it's never described as such. I don't feel there was anything in the movie that gave a hint that the rules were being altered.

I don't think we have enough information to make determination from an in-world perspective, so authorial intent also needs to factor in.

Well, authorial intent isn't canonical, strictly speaking (and the people making the movies have made statements that are not consistent with either the original canon or the new movies).

How can you not like a name like "Kelvin?"

It's mostly subjective. I think "red matter universe" sounds cooler and since that was the time machine that lead to the creation of this parallel universe, it seems more logical. I don't hate the new name or anything and consider it an improvement over the "alternate reality" moniker Memory Alpha created.

New variable of the red matter. The “Many Worlds” model exists within Trek lore, which means whatever means are used to create quantum realities are impacted by the artificial gravitational effect of growing so quickly.

Okay, but I still don't see how time travel can fit in, since the rules for quantum reality creation have already been established. (My theory is that the quantum split happened in spite of the time travel accident, not because of it).

As you say, it has precedent, even if it hasn’t been explored in Trek cosmology. So, it shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.

Also, as a second point, if the Prime Timeline no longer exists, then not only does Spock Prime have a motivation to go back and fix the mistake, but all the other Star Trek shows involving such scenarios make it a necessity. The fact that Spock Prime doesn’t try to go back indicates that this doesn’t fall under the usual time travel rules. It feels like it is treated far more like a Mirror Universe type situation.

______

This is an assumption about the delta insignia that doesn’t necessarily follow. First of all, we don’t know when the Enterprise was assigned the delta. For all we know, the Kelvin had it, was retired, and the insignia was assigned to the Enterprise.

Secondly, the concept of one ship, one duty patch, is actually one that is controversial from a production standpoint, since internal memos actually reflect that the patches are supposed to be used across Starfleet, not strictly for the Enterprise.

True, but IMHO, the canon evidence outweighs the behind-the-scenes intentions at this point (the way that Kirk was supposed to be wearing a green shirt in TOS, but the mis-colored gold has been confirmed to be the correct color).

You find it odd that Starfleet would be impacted by the Narada attack? That things wouldn’t change? Personally, I see the Narada attack as a 9/11-esque impact, that Starfleet policy would change, becoming far more concerned about future attacks. This means, that rather than things being at a standstill, that Starfleet would emphasize different facets (defense, weapons design, intelligence on Romulans).

Good point.

Well, the effect reminded me of the phase cannon test from ENT so not sure on this one

I'll have to keep an eye out for that. I was mostly complaining about the name, though. The effect (with the actual canons instead of the phaser banks or phaser arrays) was a good touch.

The Federation had no idea what Romulans looked like. That could have perhaps been made more clear, but it could be argued, since they had subspace radio communications (how else was the treaty negotiated?) that the Federation would be familiar with their language and the different dialects.

I suppose, since we have little clue what happened in the years between the prologue and the main story that there's space for this Federation to learn more about the Romulans.

I don’t recall any confusion between Romulan and Vulcan languages, but I could be wrong.

Uhura takes over the communications station since her predecessor can't tell the difference.

Also, a lot of things could have had a better explanation. Unfortunately, a real world writer’s strike prevented any additional edits.

Interesting.

Again, different culture and different times. If Starfleet was concerned about an attack at any moment by an unknown Romulan invader, thenthey might be on the look out for potential recruits.

Fair enough.

But, the likelihood that they are 100% exactly the same, given the date of birth, but it could be argued that the planned society of the Federation might allow couples to conceive and then put the baby in cryo.

I don't recall any indication that Federation families put their kids in stasis (in fact, we know from "The Neutral Zone" [TNG] that cryogenics were a fad that fell out of popularity after the 20th century).

In this timeline, Chekov’s parents might have decided to have children sooner.

That's obviously the case, but my question is, is this the same Chekov, like how old and new Kirk are the same person with different life experiences, or is this like Spider-Man, where a constant is that he and his wife have a daughter, but it's a different one depending on which parallel universe the comic is set in? Say that prime and Abramsverse Chekov were to meet. Would it be like how the Spocks met in the '09 film, or would it be like Annie and "Mayday" Parker from the Spider-Man comics Renew Your Vows and Spider-Girl meeting up; they're not the same person, but would be biological siblings, since both have Peter and Mary Jane Parker for parents.

Where the shields up?

I though navigational shields were up, although I will concede this is a common fudge that even old Trek occasionally made (or dropped the ball on).

Also, and not trying to be argumentative, but what limits are being placed on the transporters? Based upon what information?

I'm basing it on how we know the transporters work from other episodes. They also make a point of showing that you need special equipment to operate on that range. Even if Scotty was given the formula, how could the hardware exceed the range it was built to operate in?

It suggests nothing of the sort, beyond the fact that Spock has seen Nero, and has made a logical hypothesis about their origins.

Also, it isn’t a cultural similarity Spock refers to. He calls it a “common ancestry.”

Fair enough.

Could have been done better, but Kirk was also field promoted, so I can live with it.

I didn't feel that either were earned, but your mileage may vary.

I think Spock was willing to go along with the plan, and then things went wrong. Spock was willing to die so that the culture wasn’t contaminated.

It has been awhile since I saw the movie, but from the briefing scene, I really got the impression that Spock was being a rules lawyer and wouldn't compromise on anything. But I could be remembering stuff wrong.

I really want the Nibiru sequence to be its own film.

For all my problems with it, it was my favorite scene.

Also, and it could have been explicated more, but there is no reason to believe that Khan didn’t have some sort of relay system designed to allow his transport to be carried further, or that the initial beaming was done to another S31 facility and then on to Qo’noS.

That would make more sense, but didn't the dialogue indicate it was one-jump or something?

Not sure how that interpretation works, given that we don’t have a precise indication of where the Enterprise is in relationship to Qo’noS. So, that is a difficult judgment to make.

We know that the Enterprise was on the edge of Klingon space and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (extended cuts) do establish that Qo'noS is deep in Klingon terretory.

Well, it is possible that Marcus commandeered Jupiter Station for his shipyard, or as a listening post for S31.

But what about all the traffic going to and from Earth?

I honestly think that Marcus had the concept of the Vengeance, perhaps in line with a TOS Constitution class, but much larger, and more of a dreadnaught. He had the pieces coming together, and components prepped to begin assembly. Then, the Narada attacked, and Earth was shown to be massively underprepared to fight such threats, and he upped his timetable.

That would work, except Khan claims to be the ship's designer, not a consultant for a half-finished project.

Yeah, it’s a stupid line. Sounds better when Cumberbatch says it

Yeah, although I don't think he was a good representation of Khan, Cumberbatch did have the presence needed and did a good performance if separated from the original character.

As for Spock’s description, I have a theory, and granted, it is only my theory, since I haven’t read any of the novelverse material about Khan. You quote mentioned that he would only start wars if provoked. Fair enough, but that doesn’t say how he waged war. He may have left other nations alone, until they began fighting him, and then he annihilated them.

___________

That’s a rather literal way to read the line, seeing as how I read it as hyperbolic.

There don't seem to be any breaks in the movie to allow for night, so I took Scotty as being literal, but you may very well be right.

I don’t see it as a problem. I think this is subjective reading in to the effect, rather than authorial intent.

Movies are visual storytelling, so constancy in visuals is good.

Ten years at a time? Again, this feels like reading a literal interpretation in to these words without consideration for what the NX-01’s missions involved (refits, stopovers, etc).

The first five-year mission comment didn't seem to fit. I got the impression that they were implying that no ships had been out there that long (although you're right about the NX-01; I forgot that part of that time was during the Romulan War).

Also, which version of the Chronology, since I have about 3?

I accessed the first edition.

 

[fireproof78]

This one so blurs the line between the in-universe story and the real life reason that he can't undo the Abramsverse, that I'm not sure what to make of it, since Spock Prime would do the same thing regardless of whether it fit or not.

Not sure about that, because Spock Prime didn't try to fix things like the Mirror Universe,

The red matter wasn't designed to be a time machine, so all time travel properties it has are accidental. While your comment about gravity from stars being a previous time travel device was a very good point, those methods still do not create parallel universes when time traveling. That's the big hangup for me. How does that work and does it fit with the Star Trek time travel model?

Why does the slingshot method work? What about an ion storm? Interphase (Tholian Web and USS Defiant)?
I don't have the technical reasons beyond it's red matter, and the artificial nature of the singularity, the rapid growth, possibly coupled with the mass of the Narada might have contributed to both the time travel and alternate reality branching.

Okay. I'll admit I'm not sure I entirely agree with your explanation, but your reasoning seems well-thought out. I still can't get past the now time travel creates a parallel universe thing, since I can't see how even the red matter could do that.

Please see above.

That's great.

Here's a picture for reference.

Maybe I'm being picky, but since the people making the movie have stated that the timeline branches off the old one, I think it's fair to point out when the movie is inconsistent with it's own premise, since that backstory means that the laws of physics would be the same in both versions.

Not sure how that tracks, other than the alternate reality facet. I mean, the fundamentals are still present, so I'm trying to follow the issues.

I don't have a problem with some of the differences (from a canon standpoint), just ones that I feel wouldn't be affected by the accident.

Unless Starfleet is researching different avenues, such as weapons, propulsion, etc.

I didn't say it was a plot hole, I was commenting that a theory I had about Force Awakens was supported by another canonical source, in this case, a tie-in book. On a second read-through of this point, the mention of the book was a tangent to my main point; I think Abrams did a better job in Force Awakens of keeping travel time to a minimum but still editing it that it felt like more time had passed off-camera, where that didn't come across in his Trek movies.

I kind of agree to that point, but only because I think he wasn't give the mandate by the studio to broaden an audience.

But it's never described as such. I don't feel there was anything in the movie that gave a hint that the rules were being altered.

Who said altered? Just because you have a new factor that hasn't been explored before. Isn't that a fundamental of scientific discovery?

Well, authorial intent isn't canonical, strictly speaking (and the people making the movies have made statements that are not consistent with either the original canon or the new movies).

Such as?

It's mostly subjective. I think "red matter universe" sounds cooler and since that was the time machine that lead to the creation of this parallel universe, it seems more logical. I don't hate the new name or anything and consider it an improvement over the "alternate reality" moniker Memory Alpha created.

Since when do humans name things logically?

Okay, but I still don't see how time travel can fit in, since the rules for quantum reality creation have already been established. (My theory is that the quantum split happened in spite of the time travel accident, not because of it).

Possibly. There are a number of possibilities that might occur.

True, but IMHO, the canon evidence outweighs the behind-the-scenes intentions at this point (the way that Kirk was supposed to be wearing a green shirt in TOS, but the mis-colored gold has been confirmed to be the correct color).

Fair enough.

Good point.

Thank you.

I'll have to keep an eye out for that. I was mostly complaining about the name, though. The effect (with the actual canons instead of the phaser banks or phaser arrays) was a good touch.

The name annoyed me from Enterprise as well.

I suppose, since we have little clue what happened in the years between the prologue and the main story that there's space for this Federation to learn more about the Romulans.

I think it's a logical deduction that after being attacked by Romulans the Federation would work to anticipate the next attack.

Uhura takes over the communications station since her predecessor can't tell the difference.

Now I remember. Again, more research.

Interesting.

Yep.

Fair enough.

I don't recall any indication that Federation families put their kids in stasis (in fact, we know from "The Neutral Zone" [TNG] that cryogenics were a fad that fell out of popularity after the 20th century).

It isn't cryogenics in the same sense as "The Neutral Zone.

That's obviously the case, but my question is, is this the same Chekov, like how old and new Kirk are the same person with different life experiences, or is this like Spider-Man, where a constant is that he and his wife have a daughter, but it's a different one depending on which parallel universe the comic is set in? Say that prime and Abramsverse Chekov were to meet. Would it be like how the Spocks met in the '09 film, or would it be like Annie and "Mayday" Parker from the Spider-Man comics Renew Your Vows and Spider-Girl meeting up; they're not the same person, but would be biological siblings, since both have Peter and Mary Jane Parker for parents.

I'm not really sure.

I though navigational shields were up, although I will concede this is a common fudge that even old Trek occasionally made (or dropped the ball on).

Yeah, beaming through shields is a non-issue to me, since it is a very common error in most Trek series.

I'm basing it on how we know the transporters work from other episodes. They also make a point of showing that you need special equipment to operate on that range. Even if Scotty was given the formula, how could the hardware exceed the range it was built to operate in?

One of the aspects of the transporters in the new films is that their limits on transporters are rather artificial. Scotty even laments the fact that his instructor at the Academy seemed to think that they could barely beam around Earth, regardless of the equipment. One of the limits with the transporter tech seems to be their ability to compensate for any changes (gravity, change of position, etc). If Spock Prime just gave them a more accurate way to lock on to the subject and target location then it seems to improve their range.

Fair enough.

I didn't feel that either were earned, but your mileage may vary.

Eh, it's barely earned for me, as far as promotions go. But, it isn't a film breaker.

It has been awhile since I saw the movie, but from the briefing scene, I really got the impression that Spock was being a rules lawyer and wouldn't compromise on anything. But I could be remembering stuff wrong.

He was being a bit of a rules lawyer with Pike, but I have no doubt that Kirk could have persuaded him to at least try to save the inhabitants. He isn't first season Picard.

For all my problems with it, it was my favorite scene.

It's a good scene.

That would make more sense, but didn't the dialogue indicate it was one-jump or something?

All it indicates is Khan's end destination, and that's it.

We know that the Enterprise was on the edge of Klingon space and Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (extended cuts) do establish that Qo'noS is deep in Klingon terretory.

And they have a arms merchant ship that they fly in to Klingon space.

But what about all the traffic going to and from Earth?

What better way to hide something than in plain site. Just read the Purloined Letter.

That would work, except Khan claims to be the ship's designer, not a consultant for a half-finished project.

And no way Khan would lie about it?

Yeah, although I don't think he was a good representation of Khan, Cumberbatch did have the presence needed and did a good performance if separated from the original character.

I thought he had a lot of menace and presence. There was something far more scary about him.

There don't seem to be any breaks in the movie to allow for night, so I took Scotty as being literal, but you may very well be right.

No, but there is a lot of voiceovers and events happening that clearly must take longer than the edit would indicate.

Movies are visual storytelling, so constancy in visuals is good.

Movies are also designed to explore new visuals as well.

The first five-year mission comment didn't seem to fit. I got the impression that they were implying that no ships had been out there that long (although you're right about the NX-01; I forgot that part of that time was during the Romulan War).

Again, it's taking it all at the strictest literal sense.

I accessed the first edition.

I'll have to review mine.

 

[WebLurker]

Not sure about that, because Spock Prime didn't try to fix things like the Mirror Universe,

We do have reason to believe that the mirror universe was not the result of time travel, so I think slightly different reasons.

Why does the slingshot method work? What about an ion storm? Interphase (Tholian Web and USS Defiant)?
I don't have the technical reasons beyond it's red matter, and the artificial nature of the singularity, the rapid growth, possibly coupled with the mass of the Narada might have contributed to both the time travel and alternate reality branching.

I feel like we're kind of going back and forth. The way I see it, they've established a certain set of rules due to relatively consistent use, to the point that, by the scientific method, we can call it a Scientific Law. These movies overturn that Law, without explaining in a matter I find satisfactory, since it appears to be a new method of doing the exact same thing. Does that make any sense?

Here's a picture for reference.

Not sure how that tracks, other than the alternate reality facet. I mean, the fundamentals are still present, so I'm trying to follow the issues.

Well, as I said, I don't think the geography of the Klingon Empire matches the old one. It's a lot of little things that add up over time, to the point where it all feels "off."

Unless Starfleet is researching different avenues, such as weapons, propulsion, etc.

I can accept that (although I might disagree with other people on what technologies are within their reach).

Who said altered? Just because you have a new factor that hasn't been explored before. Isn't that a fundamental of scientific discovery?

See above.

Such as?

They went on record as saying that Gaila (the Orion cadet) had been freed through an underground railroad. That doesn't mesh with the facts that female Orions are the ones calling the shots ("Bound" [ENT]). They also wanted Spock Prime to say that the timeline was trying to heal itself to explain why all the characters were still coming together on the same ship, while we consistently see in other time travel stories that an altered timeline does not work to "heal" itself. The recent explanation that the altered timeline is sufficient reason to change Sulu from a straight man to a gay one doesn't make that much sense, IMHO.

I get the feeling that they're only paying lip service to the idea that this's an altered timeline of the original one. They're instead doing a reboot and doing whatever they jolly well please, and then invoking the "alternate timeline/parallel universe" explanation to justify the changes, even when that explanation disproves the change in the first place.

Since when do humans name things logically?

Yeah, it's just personal taste here; nothing good or bad.

The name annoyed me from Enterprise as well.

ENT used phase weapons and phase cannons. I honestly didn't mind them, as I saw them to be a precursor to the lasers we saw in the TOS pilots and I liked the designs of the handguns. Your mileage may vary.

I think it's a logical deduction that after being attacked by Romulans the Federation would work to anticipate the next attack.

I'll agree.

It isn't cryogenics in the same sense as "The Neutral Zone.

Oh. What's the difference?

I'm not really sure.

I really wish that the Powers That Be had addressed this one. It'd have made for an interesting discussion.

Yeah, beaming through shields is a non-issue to me, since it is a very common error in most Trek series.

Fair enough. "I saw the beaming through the shields" gaffe as trivia and less as a problem, like the question if the Enterprise was in range.

One of the aspects of the transporters in the new films is that their limits on transporters are rather artificial. Scotty even laments the fact that his instructor at the Academy seemed to think that they could barely beam around Earth, regardless of the equipment.

Seriously? How can you get this simple thing wrong?!

One of the limits with the transporter tech seems to be their ability to compensate for any changes (gravity, change of position, etc). If Spock Prime just gave them a more accurate way to lock on to the subject and target location then it seems to improve their range.

Okay. But the formula was just a formula. Would the equipment be up to the task of using it correctly? (Like how you need the right computer operating system to use software?) I'm also not sure if the formula follows the information we know about transporters from the TV shows and old movies.

Eh, it's barely earned for me, as far as promotions go. But, it isn't a film breaker.

I still don't buy it, but fair enough.

He was being a bit of a rules lawyer with Pike, but I have no doubt that Kirk could have persuaded him to at least try to save the inhabitants. He isn't first season Picard.

Given things like McCoy's prediction that Spock would let Kirk die in the volcano rather than break the Prime Directive, I felt like he was being set up as the inflexible one, and that his involvement seems to run against that when thinking it over. But you could be right.

It's a good scene.

All it indicates is Khan's end destination, and that's it.

Huh. In that case, more details would've been helpful.

And they have a arms merchant ship that they fly in to Klingon space.

I forget, did they use warp drive for that trip? If so, that would explain this problem.

What better way to hide something than in plain site. Just read the Purloined Letter.

If there was a pretext for what the shipyard really was ("We're actually building a warship, but tell everyone that we're running transwarp drive experiments"), then I would agree. However, when Scotty goes there, he's surprised to learn that anything's there. That to me, means that Section 31 was keeping everything a secret, which, IMHO, makes Jupiter one of the worst places to base the Vengeance project.

And no way Khan would lie about it?

Why would he lie about that? He pretty consistently tells Kirk the truth (just not all of it). When watching the movie, I never got the idea that we were supposed to be thinking about his claims for designing the ship: "He's lying."

I thought he had a lot of menace and presence. There was something far more scary about him.

He's less theatrical, that's for sure.

No, but there is a lot of voiceovers and events happening that clearly must take longer than the edit would indicate.

Okay. Wish that had been better communicated.

Movies are also designed to explore new visuals as well.

But visual consistency is a shorthand for communication. If I see something, I expect it to look the same under the same circumstances. New stuff is good, but use it for new things, not as a replacement for an old thing that still works.

Again, it's taking it all at the strictest literal sense.

Fair enough, but it was still something that jumped out at me as "that doesn't sound right."

 

[fireproof78]

We do have reason to believe that the mirror universe was not the result of time travel, so I think slightly different reasons.

Indeed, but it sets a precedence. We always see the heroes attempting to "undo" the damage that has been done to their timeline, or minimize their impact. The times that they don't and leave it to continue on is when it is its own timeline or reality.

I feel like we're kind of going back and forth. The way I see it, they've established a certain set of rules due to relatively consistent use, to the point that, by the scientific method, we can call it a Scientific Law. These movies overturn that Law, without explaining in a matter I find satisfactory, since it appears to be a new method of doing the exact same thing. Does that make any sense?

Only in the sense that there seems to be an expectation of an explanation, when Star Trek has not always provided one. Protomatter makes planets? Why? Because, science, etc.

Well, as I said, I don't think the geography of the Klingon Empire matches the old one. It's a lot of little things that add up over time, to the point where it all feels "off."

I didn't really feel like I had a sense of the geography of the Klingon Empire from the films other than Rura Penthe is a prison planet and Q'no'S is the Klingon Homeworld with some neat ruins.

It feels off to me as much as Vulcan feels off for having giant catacombs with statues and blue sky.

I can accept that (although I might disagree with other people on what technologies are within their reach).
See above.

Some tech might be out of reach, but some may simply be a matter of application.

They went on record as saying that Gaila (the Orion cadet) had been freed through an underground railroad. That doesn't mesh with the facts that female Orions are the ones calling the shots ("Bound" [ENT]). They also wanted Spock Prime to say that the timeline was trying to heal itself to explain why all the characters were still coming together on the same ship, while we consistently see in other time travel stories that an altered timeline does not work to "heal" itself. The recent explanation that the altered timeline is sufficient reason to change Sulu from a straight man to a gay one doesn't make that much sense, IMHO.

First of all, I don't take all the comics so seriously, no matter what is said about them. Some of them are just plain awful storytelling and that includes the Orion storylines, though, to be fair, Galia was freed due to her mom arrainging her marriage.

Also, if the timeline is trying to heal itself, that's an interesting explanation and one I wished was explored more. It also would allow for the explanation of why in different realities the main characters end up together (TOS crew in Mirror, Mirror; TNG crew in "Parallels" and even "Tapestry).

I get the feeling that they're only paying lip service to the idea that this's an altered timeline of the original one. They're instead doing a reboot and doing whatever they jolly well please, and then invoking the "alternate timeline/parallel universe" explanation to justify the changes, even when that explanation disproves the change in the first place.

Ok. I don't see that as an issue, but that's me.

Yeah, it's just personal taste here; nothing good or bad.

Yep.

ENT used phase weapons and phase cannons. I honestly didn't mind them, as I saw them to be a precursor to the lasers we saw in the TOS pilots and I liked the designs of the handguns. Your mileage may vary.

And does. One of the aspects of ENT I hated was the phase pistols.

I'll agree.

Oh. What's the difference?

Well, for starters, it's a process we can do now.

I really wish that the Powers That Be had addressed this one. It'd have made for an interesting discussion.

Sure, but that's what the Internet is for. Also, they are trying to craft an entertaining story first and foremost.

Fair enough. "I saw the beaming through the shields" gaffe as trivia and less as a problem, like the question if the Enterprise was in range.

It's only annoying when the show makes a big deal out of not beaming through the shields, then does it later because...

Seriously? How can you get this simple thing wrong?!

Given how wrong the transporter can go, it might make sense that Starfleet Corp of Engineers and other groups felt transporter tech should be handled with caution.

Okay. But the formula was just a formula. Would the equipment be up to the task of using it correctly? (Like how you need the right computer operating system to use software?) I'm also not sure if the formula follows the information we know about transporters from the TV shows and old movies.

Me either. But, it works well enough for the story. Also, this is the same Spock Prime who built a tricorder using 20th century Earth tech, among other things.

I still don't buy it, but fair enough.

Ok.

Given things like McCoy's prediction that Spock would let Kirk die in the volcano rather than break the Prime Directive, I felt like he was being set up as the inflexible one, and that his involvement seems to run against that when thinking it over. But you could be right.

Sure, Spock is kind of inflexible. But, do you really think that Kirk couldn't explore the possibility of what it would take to stop a volcanic eruption and began working on it, and Spock was willing to help to make it succeed, under certain stipulations?

Huh. In that case, more details would've been helpful.

Kirk wasn't really in the mood for details.

I forget, did they use warp drive for that trip? If so, that would explain this problem.

Unclear.

If there was a pretext for what the shipyard really was ("We're actually building a warship, but tell everyone that we're running transwarp drive experiments"), then I would agree. However, when Scotty goes there, he's surprised to learn that anything's there. That to me, means that Section 31 was keeping everything a secret, which, IMHO, makes Jupiter one of the worst places to base the Vengeance project.

I didn't read his reaction as surprise, so mileage may vary. I think his surprise came more from what type of ship was being built, which, given his reaction to the torpedoes, is an understandable reaction.

Why would he lie about that? He pretty consistently tells Kirk the truth (just not all of it). When watching the movie, I never got the idea that we were supposed to be thinking about his claims for designing the ship: "He's lying."

He's a sociopath.

He's less theatrical, that's for sure.

Oh, he has his moments. But, the quiet menace is more interesting to me.

Okay. Wish that had been better communicated.

Yeah, there are some rough spots in the edit, to be sure.

But visual consistency is a shorthand for communication. If I see something, I expect it to look the same under the same circumstances. New stuff is good, but use it for new things, not as a replacement for an old thing that still works.

Which is why I never really liked TNG. Though, to be fair, the warp effect has had some minor tweaks over the years.

Fair enough, but it was still something that jumped out at me as "that doesn't sound right."

I think it was Scotty being hyperbolic, as he is want to be.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I was going to read the posts in this thread, but then I realized I couldn't afford to hire a Sherpa to climb to the top of the walls of text with me. I'm equal parts impressed and horrified by the scale of the discussion on the last couple pages. Carry on.

 

[fireproof78]

I was going to read the posts in this thread, but then I realized I couldn't afford to hire a Sherpa to climb to the top of the walls of text with me. I'm equal parts impressed and horrified by the scale of the discussion on the last couple pages. Carry on.

I don't if I should be insulted or complimented. I'll say thank you regardless

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I've done some extensive wall texting in my day, so you have my compliments.

 

[WebLurker]

Sorry it's been awhile. Anyways:

Indeed, but it sets a precedence. We always see the heroes attempting to "undo" the damage that has been done to their timeline, or minimize their impact. The times that they don't and leave it to continue on is when it is its own timeline or reality.

Unless they're tying to change history. Given that this point is so tied into the real world reasons, I find it hard to discuss "in-universe," since I think under those circumstances, Spock Prime would be working to fix things, if he could.

Only in the sense that there seems to be an expectation of an explanation, when Star Trek has not always provided one. Protomatter makes planets? Why? Because, science, etc.

Since I think the movies are changing the rules from how we've seen them work before, that's why I'd like an explanation.

I didn't really feel like I had a sense of the geography of the Klingon Empire from the films other than Rura Penthe is a prison planet and Q'no'S is the Klingon Homeworld with some neat ruins.

I was thinking about how the extended versions of The Undiscovered Country seemed to indicate that traveling to Q'onoS was a bit of a trip. (Not to mention that "Day of the Dove" [TOS] said the planet was resource poor, which was part of the reason the Klingons were expansionists.

It feels off to me as much as Vulcan feels off for having giant catacombs with statues and blue sky.

Weren't there catacombs in ENT's Vulcan trilogy ("The Forge," Awakening," and "Kir'Shara")? Also, T'Pol did say that Vulcan had a blue sky occasionally in "Strange New World" (ENT).

Some tech might be out of reach, but some may simply be a matter of application.

Fair enough.

First of all, I don't take all the comics so seriously, no matter what is said about them.

Are you talking about the Kelvin timeline ones? Well, since tie-ins aren't canon in the first place, I don't mess with them much in discussions like this.

[

Some of them are just plain awful storytelling and that includes the Orion storylines, though, to be fair, Galia was freed due to her mom arrainging her marriage.

Interesting.

Also, if the timeline is trying to heal itself, that's an interesting explanation and one I wished was explored more. It also would allow for the explanation of why in different realities the main characters end up together (TOS crew in Mirror, Mirror; TNG crew in "Parallels" and even "Tapestry).

Since most of those were pre-existing parallel universes that branched off the old one, I didn't have a problem with that. Also, given that so many time travel stories seem to show that a change in the past can completely disrupt the present ("like "Past Tense, Parts I and II" [DS9], First Contact, etc.), it seems like there is no natural timeline healing, IMHO.

Ok. I don't see that as an issue, but that's me.

Okay.

And does. One of the aspects of ENT I hated was the phase pistols.

Fair enough.

Well, for starters, it's a process we can do now.

I guess we're getting into semantics now, huh?

Sure, but that's what the Internet is for. Also, they are trying to craft an entertaining story first and foremost.

Fair enough. Although, I didn't find the movies that entertaining and the loose interpretation didn't help, esp. as it was billed as being in the same fictional world, and not as a total reboot.

It's only annoying when the show makes a big deal out of not beaming through the shields, then does it later because...

I think some of those cases (like in "Relics" [TNG]) were honest accidents on the writer's parts. I guess the '09 movie could be one, too.

Given how wrong the transporter can go, it might make sense that Starfleet Corp of Engineers and other groups felt transporter tech should be handled with caution.

True, but Abramsverse Scotty's account basically sounds like they're not approving stuff that we know by this time was considered safe for routine use.

Me either. But, it works well enough for the story. Also, this is the same Spock Prime who built a tricorder using 20th century Earth tech, among other things.

I suppose.

Sure, Spock is kind of inflexible. But, do you really think that Kirk couldn't explore the possibility of what it would take to stop a volcanic eruption and began working on it, and Spock was willing to help to make it succeed, under certain stipulations?

I don't have a problem with Kirk doing it. But the later part of the movie made such a big deal that Spock didn't believe in exceptions to regulations under any circumstances. "You can't even break a rule. How can you be expected to break bone?" Khan asks him at one point. So, with that backdrop, it just seems odd that he would be willing to break a rule, despite us being told throughout the movie that this's out of character for him and he's willing to make the hard choices to follow this.

Kirk wasn't really in the mood for details.

No, I am!

Unclear.

Okay.

I didn't read his reaction as surprise, so mileage may vary. I think his surprise came more from what type of ship was being built, which, given his reaction to the torpedoes, is an understandable reaction.

Okay. (Did like that scene, either way.)

He's a sociopath.

I guess.

Oh, he has his moments. But, the quiet menace is more interesting to me.

Cumberbatch did sell those really well.

Yeah, there are some rough spots in the edit, to be sure.

Yeah. I'm really glad Force Awakens was smoother in execution.

Which is why I never really liked TNG. Though, to be fair, the warp effect has had some minor tweaks over the years.

Oh? I thought TNG was generally consistent with TOS. The thing about the warp effect is that the previous ones looked like variations of the same idea, with TNG solidifying the "rubber band" zoom and flash/bang as the way that warp drive worked. Abrams' version looks so different (as if we was just assuming that warp drive worked like Star Wars hyperspace) that I have trouble believing that it's the same technology. (Cool comparison video, though!)

I think it was Scotty being hyperbolic, as he is want to be.

Wasn't Spock the one who said that their mission would be the first five-year one?

(Scotty said he'd been gone for one day after getting back to the Enterprise, which could be hyperbolic.)

 

[fireproof78]

Sorry it's been awhile. Anyways:



Unless they're tying to change history. Given that this point is so tied into the real world reasons, I find it hard to discuss "in-universe," since I think under those circumstances, Spock Prime would be working to fix things, if he could.

It is difficult to discuss "in-universe" but I'm also not certain that Spock Prime would try to fix it. The Prime Time line still exists otherwise Spock Prime would be working to restore it.

Since I think the movies are changing the rules from how we've seen them work before, that's why I'd like an explanation.

And perhaps we still will.

I was thinking about how the extended versions of The Undiscovered Country seemed to indicate that traveling to Q'onoS was a bit of a trip. (Not to mention that "Day of the Dove" [TOS] said the planet was resource poor, which was part of the reason the Klingons were expansionists.

Possibly, but bear in mind that Sulu and Excelsior were able to creep towards Klingon Territory in "Flashback" so some facet of the Klingon Empire is accessible to the Federation via more subversive means. At least, Rura Penthe was accessible, since it was a rescue effort for Kirk and McCoy.
Also, I tend to think that this is a characteristic of the film making style itself rather than an implication that Klingon space is rearranged.

Weren't there catacombs in ENT's Vulcan trilogy ("The Forge," Awakening," and "Kir'Shara")? Also, T'Pol did say that Vulcan had a blue sky occasionally in "Strange New World" (ENT).

I would have to revisit those episodes to be certain. I honestly don't know.
I should say that I'm not surprised by the catacombs, but it strikes me as odd that the elders would go there.

Fair enough.

Hey, thanks.

Are you talking about the Kelvin timeline ones? Well, since tie-ins aren't canon in the first place, I don't mess with them much in discussions like this.

So, you don't mess with the comics, yet you cite them as examples of diversion within the timeline? O_o

Interesting.

It is. Not one of the best stories, as it becomes needlessly complicated in my view, but still interesting.

Since most of those were pre-existing parallel universes that branched off the old one, I didn't have a problem with that. Also, given that so many time travel stories seem to show that a change in the past can completely disrupt the present ("like "Past Tense, Parts I and II" [DS9], First Contact, etc.), it seems like there is no natural timeline healing, IMHO.

Healing? Perhaps not, but trends of certain individuals being drawn together (Mirror universe being prime example/offender) seem very common.

I guess we're getting into semantics now, huh?

We are having a discussion about the physics of the Star Trek universe alternate reality. Of course there are semantics involved
To be more serious, cryogenics is a very specific form of freezing people. It isn't just 'putting people on ice" but involves a specific process. So, while embryo freezing might not be technically cryogenics, it's different enough to be excluded from the comments in "The Neutral Zone."

Fair enough. Although, I didn't find the movies that entertaining and the loose interpretation didn't help, esp. as it was billed as being in the same fictional world, and not as a total reboot.

I suppose its kind of like the historical fiction, like Turtledove, writes about. There are times when technologies appear sooner or later within the timeline due societal pressure, need or influences.

I think some of those cases (like in "Relics" [TNG]) were honest accidents on the writer's parts. I guess the '09 movie could be one, too.

Certainly. Again, there was a real world writer's strike that prevented any rewrites during production. RW factors can be a major hindrance in terms of what they want to do and are able to do.

True, but Abramsverse Scotty's account basically sounds like they're not approving stuff that we know by this time was considered safe for routine use.

But, there is a supposition to be made here. The impression that I got is that transporter technology was not as heavily researched as weapons, ship design or engine design. This stands to reason as Starfleet would be concerned with another attack from Romulans whom they just finished a war with.

Scotty, not as concerned with war effort, would focus on more theoretical applications.

I suppose.

Well, Spock has been shown to improvise tech before so it stands to reason that he would at least be able to come up with something, especially if its technology he actually understands and doesn't have to reverse engineer.

I don't have a problem with Kirk doing it. But the later part of the movie made such a big deal that Spock didn't believe in exceptions to regulations under any circumstances. "You can't even break a rule. How can you be expected to break bone?" Khan asks him at one point. So, with that backdrop, it just seems odd that he would be willing to break a rule, despite us being told throughout the movie that this's out of character for him and he's willing to make the hard choices to follow this.

Again, it's Khan. I don't take everything he says at face value.

Also, I don't know if you ever been there, but I've seen it before where people decide to relax on the rules once and it goes so horribly bad that they refuse to do so ever again. I could see Spock being so annoyed by Kirk's flagrant disregard for the PD and contaminating the Nibiru natives to save his life that he would double down on his "by the book" nature.

No, I am!

Well, even GR would disagree with you to some point, at least according to the TOS writer's guide.

Okay.

Okay. (Did like that scene, either way.)

It was a well done scene.

I guess.

He will lie, manipulate and kill if it is in his best interest or furthers his advantage. If he is a sociopath then he is darn close.

Cumberbatch did sell those really well.

Which is why I really enjoyed his performance.

Yeah. I'm really glad Force Awakens was smoother in execution.

In some ways.

Oh? I thought TNG was generally consistent with TOS. The thing about the warp effect is that the previous ones looked like variations of the same idea, with TNG solidifying the "rubber band" zoom and flash/bang as the way that warp drive worked. Abrams' version looks so different (as if we was just assuming that warp drive worked like Star Wars hyperspace) that I have trouble believing that it's the same technology. (Cool comparison video, though!)

I think its just a matter of budgeting and effects. I mean, what does the flash/bang mean? Are they breaking the light speed barrier? Are they moving in to another dimension?

Wasn't Spock the one who said that their mission would be the first five-year one?

Spock refers to it as a new program and Kirk talks about deep space and uncharted territory.

(Scotty said he'd been gone for one day after getting back to the Enterprise, which could be hyperbolic.)

I would say it most likely is, but that's me.

 

[Commander Richard]

If JJ ruined Kirk, then Pegg and Lin saved him.

 

[WebLurker]

It is difficult to discuss "in-universe" but I'm also not certain that Spock Prime would try to fix it. The Prime Time line still exists otherwise Spock Prime would be working to restore it.

However, if it was indeed a time travel accident, the only thing to do would be to fix it. Unless it's proven to be a predestination paradox, time travel incidents are not part of the natural flow of history and need to be fixed. (The only exceptions seem to be if the crew is trying to change history on purpose or if there's no means to fix it.)

The question remains, if Spock would believe that his home reality still existed or not (which I question, since I'm not sure that the mechanics of the original time travel would create a parallel universe, the way the writers thing)? Also, even if the original timeline survived, would it still be ethical to allow the Kelvin timeline to continue, since this was not supposed to happen in the first place, and has cost the lives of countless people who were supposed to live?

And perhaps we still will.

Possibly. A rumor I heard about the next movie suggests that it's need some kind of reality warping to make it work. However, I think Pegg developed his version of the time travel accident mechanics not because they were relevant to Beyond, but just to explain any further changes made to the timeline.

Possibly, but bear in mind that Sulu and Excelsior were able to creep towards Klingon Territory in "Flashback" so some facet of the Klingon Empire is accessible to the Federation via more subversive means. At least, Rura Penthe was accessible, since it was a rescue effort for Kirk and McCoy.
Also, I tend to think that this is a characteristic of the film making style itself rather than an implication that Klingon space is rearranged.

Fair enough, although Into Darkness sure seemed to imply that the Enterprise had parked a block away. My problem was never with the idea of them sneaking into Klingon space in the first place, but with the distances they were implying.

I would have to revisit those episodes to be certain. I honestly don't know.
I should say that I'm not surprised by the catacombs, but it strikes me as odd that the elders would go there.

Actually, the intent was that that cave was a storage chamber for katric arks (the filmmakers flubbed by calling the room itself the katric ark, when the arks are actually the little jars the katras go into, not the room). The implication was that they were trying to rescue as many of the katras as they could (here's Memory Alpha's summary of it all: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Katric_ark).

Hey, thanks.

No prob.

So, you don't mess with the comics, yet you cite them as examples of diversion within the timeline? O_o

The examples I was citing were stuff that the filmmakers have said in interviews and stuff. I think you were the first person to bring up the comics.

Healing? Perhaps not, but trends of certain individuals being drawn together (Mirror universe being prime example/offender) seem very common.

It's implied that the mirror universe wasn't created by a time travel accident, so if the time line tried to heal itself during time travel, that trick wouldn't apply. Also, by DS9, we see that the mirror universe begins diverging from the prime one very drastically.

We are having a discussion about the physics of the Star Trek universe alternate reality. Of course there are semantics involved
To be more serious, cryogenics is a very specific form of freezing people. It isn't just 'putting people on ice" but involves a specific process. So, while embryo freezing might not be technically cryogenics, it's different enough to be excluded from the comments in "The Neutral Zone."

Okay.

I suppose its kind of like the historical fiction, like Turtledove, writes about. There are times when technologies appear sooner or later within the timeline due societal pressure, need or influences.

Sure, but I think the question that's raised is if the culture has the means to build the tech. You ever play any of the Civilization games? In there, you need to get specific prerequisite advancements before specific stuff can be developed. That's the question I'm asking, does the alt-Federation have the prerequisites to make the tech we see in these movies?

Certainly. Again, there was a real world writer's strike that prevented any rewrites during production. RW factors can be a major hindrance in terms of what they want to do and are able to do.

Yeah, it is what it is.

But, there is a supposition to be made here. The impression that I got is that transporter technology was not as heavily researched as weapons, ship design or engine design. This stands to reason as Starfleet would be concerned with another attack from Romulans whom they just finished a war with.

But we see transporters being routinely used from ship to planet during the movies. If that was safe, then heck yeah it would be safe to beam from one part of a planet to another.

Scotty, not as concerned with war effort, would focus on more theoretical applications.

Do we have any evidence that the original Narada incident sparked war prep with Starfleet/the Federation? (That did happen with the destruction of Vulcan, as we saw in Into Darkness.)

Well, Spock has been shown to improvise tech before so it stands to reason that he would at least be able to come up with something, especially if its technology he actually understands and doesn't have to reverse engineer.

I'll concede the point, although the new transporters seem to have a lot of differences in interface and function. For example, in the '09 movie, Amanda Grayson dies by falling out of the beam. If the transporter worked the same way as the ones from ENT to the prime universe's future did, she would be partially in the pattern buffer and so could not fall out. (I think this's actually a goof, but I'll allow that the alt-transporter could've evolved into a different form of teleportation device than the one from the prime universe.)

Again, it's Khan. I don't take everything he says at face value.

True, but how much did the writers intend to be the truth and how much lies?

Also, I don't know if you ever been there, but I've seen it before where people decide to relax on the rules once and it goes so horribly bad that they refuse to do so ever again. I could see Spock being so annoyed by Kirk's flagrant disregard for the PD and contaminating the Nibiru natives to save his life that he would double down on his "by the book" nature.

Well, even GR would disagree with you to some point, at least according to the TOS writer's guide.

Really?

He will lie, manipulate and kill if it is in his best interest or furthers his advantage. If he is a sociopath then he is darn close.

Okay.

Which is why I really enjoyed his performance.

Can't wait to see him in Doctor Strange.

In some ways.

Where do you think it could've used fine-tuning?

I think its just a matter of budgeting and effects. I mean, what does the flash/bang mean? Are they breaking the light speed barrier? Are they moving in to another dimension?

I'm not sure what the official technobabble is, but I do think that the Abramsverse version doesn't seem to work like it. Kirk's belief that the Vengeance couldn't fight them at warp is nonsensical, as he would know that it could. The energy tunnel effect was also a bad call, since that means slipstream or trasnwarp conduit in Star Trek's visual language, while streaking stars are the warp drive effect. (I think that Abrams just used Star Wars hyperdrive rules for Star Trek subspace, not realizing or caring that they are different things with their own rules of operation.)

Spock refers to it as a new program and Kirk talks about deep space and uncharted territory.

Okay.

I would say it most likely is, but that's me.

Well, he did always multiply his repair estimates by four...

 

[MakeshiftPython]

If JJ ruined Kirk, then Pegg and Lin saved him.

My sentiments. I don't like fratboy Kirk in the first two films, and this film does a very good job of fixing the character by taking advantage of it. I like that this film addresses that Kirk only joined on a dare and that he has to find his own genuine reasons for wanting to continue in Starfleet. This is the kind of Kirk that we only saw glimpses with Pine like in STID when Spock gladly offers his assistance after Kirk made the announcement of capturing HarriKhan.

 

[fireproof78]

However, if it was indeed a time travel accident, the only thing to do would be to fix it. Unless it's proven to be a predestination paradox, time travel incidents are not part of the natural flow of history and need to be fixed. (The only exceptions seem to be if the crew is trying to change history on purpose or if there's no means to fix it.)

Interestingly enough, @Christopher has a discussion point about this in another thread.
You're telling me that the TNG crew being a part of First Contact or Tasha Yar going back in time and allowing Sela to be born were not problems that needed to be fixed?

The question remains, if Spock would believe that his home reality still existed or not (which I question, since I'm not sure that the mechanics of the original time travel would create a parallel universe, the way the writers thing)? Also, even if the original timeline survived, would it still be ethical to allow the Kelvin timeline to continue, since this was not supposed to happen in the first place, and has cost the lives of countless people who were supposed to live?

First of all, there is no reason to believe that Spock's original reality ceased to exist. Again, things changed around in "City on the Edge of Forever" and yet the heroes were able to return to their timeline. So, the idea that Spock couldn't fix it is, to me, a cop out.

Possibly. A rumor I heard about the next movie suggests that it's need some kind of reality warping to make it work. However, I think Pegg developed his version of the time travel accident mechanics not because they were relevant to Beyond, but just to explain any further changes made to the timeline.

We'll have to see.

Fair enough, although Into Darkness sure seemed to imply that the Enterprise had parked a block away. My problem was never with the idea of them sneaking into Klingon space in the first place, but with the distances they were implying.

I blame that on the editing, because we get several time jumps that feel rather seamless.

Actually, the intent was that that cave was a storage chamber for katric arks (the filmmakers flubbed by calling the room itself the katric ark, when the arks are actually the little jars the katras go into, not the room). The implication was that they were trying to rescue as many of the katras as they could (here's Memory Alpha's summary of it all: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Katric_ark).

Yes, but it makes little to no sense to have it in a room that appears to be very unstable and not easily evacuated. I understand the purpose of the katric arks but the actual room itself makes little sense to me.

The examples I was citing were stuff that the filmmakers have said in interviews and stuff. I think you were the first person to bring up the comics.

Well, you mentioned something about the Orions being presented wrong. I apologize if I misread that.

It's implied that the mirror universe wasn't created by a time travel accident, so if the time line tried to heal itself during time travel, that trick wouldn't apply. Also, by DS9, we see that the mirror universe begins diverging from the prime one very drastically.

Which is what we also see within the Kelvin timeline. Regardless of how it came about, either as a branching or a quantum copy, there is divergence within the time line, making the Kelvin universe an alternate universe distinct in its own right.

Sure, but I think the question that's raised is if the culture has the means to build the tech. You ever play any of the Civilization games? In there, you need to get specific prerequisite advancements before specific stuff can be developed. That's the question I'm asking, does the alt-Federation have the prerequisites to make the tech we see in these movies?

It isn't just a matter of prerequisite tech but also application. As matter of example, how long has gun powder been around? Has the fundamentals of that explosive powder changed? Not really, but the application of its use have evolved over the many, many, years, with a wide variety of iterations.

I think that the Alt-Federation has the technology, but, due to the threat of the Narada's attack and apparently a new Romulan war machine, they would need to look at the tech a different way. My argument is that the alt-Starfleet put more and more emphasis on weapons technology, engine output, and starship size.

Yeah, it is what it is.

Yes, but there is always different angles to consider.

But we see transporters being routinely used from ship to planet during the movies. If that was safe, then heck yeah it would be safe to beam from one part of a planet to another.

Considering that in TOS era beaming from one part of the ship to another was considered hazardous, I'm not 100% about that. It seems to me that transporter technology relies heavily on ship based sensors to ensure safe beaming. Which, considering how wrong things go in ENT and in TOS that seems to be a legitimate concern. We see shuttles used a lot more to transport large groups of people,

Do we have any evidence that the original Narada incident sparked war prep with Starfleet/the Federation? (That did happen with the destruction of Vulcan, as we saw in Into Darkness.)

Specifically stated? No. But, the larger ship design, the different style of weapons, and the less emphasis on exploration seem to indicate to me that Starfleet was far more in a defensive posture.

Also, at least from my point of view, it makes sense that a government would grow more more worried about an attack from a power that they had only recently finished a war with. The Narada's attack would fuel concern that the Romulans were preparing for war again, and the Federation would rely upon Starfleet to be prepared to counters to the threat based upon what the Kelvin was able to do.

I'll concede the point, although the new transporters seem to have a lot of differences in interface and function. For example, in the '09 movie, Amanda Grayson dies by falling out of the beam. If the transporter worked the same way as the ones from ENT to the prime universe's future did, she would be partially in the pattern buffer and so could not fall out. (I think this's actually a goof, but I'll allow that the alt-transporter could've evolved into a different form of teleportation device than the one from the prime universe.)

I think they are a lot more safety conscious and certainly have some differences.

True, but how much did the writers intend to be the truth and how much lies?

You'll have to ask them

Really?

From the 1967 "Writer's Guide."
They list seven rules on page 5 (7 of the PDF in the link) that are to be used to create a show in the "Star Trek format." The first two are the ones that I thought of:
1. Build your episode on an action-adventure framework. We must reach out, hold, and entertain an audience of some 20, 000, 000 people or we simply don't stay on the air.
2. Tell your story about people, not about science and gadgetry. Joe Friday doesn't stop to explain the mechanics of his .38 before he uses it; Kildare never did a monologue about the theory of anesthetics; Matt Dillon never identifies and discusses the breed of his horse before he rides off on it.

As much as I enjoy technology and the different applications that Star Trek has put forward over the years, that isn't why I watch the show or the films. I enjoy the characters and their path, not just the trappings of their world. I can enjoy the trappings, but not to the point that it takes away from the characters. You can see my views on the Star Wars prequels to understand that.

Can't wait to see him in Doctor Strange.

Should be interesting.

Where do you think it could've used fine-tuning?

There are a few minor points that I don't enjoy about the film. The main one is Starkiller base. It feels very much like a retread of ANH and the Death Star Trench run. So, that wasn't the most original of moments, but, to be fair, the same complaint can be made about ROTJ. I just wish it hadn't been another galaxy destroying weapon.

Also, the initial plan to kill off Poe.

I'm not sure what the official technobabble is, but I do think that the Abramsverse version doesn't seem to work like it. Kirk's belief that the Vengeance couldn't fight them at warp is nonsensical, as he would know that it could. The energy tunnel effect was also a bad call, since that means slipstream or trasnwarp conduit in Star Trek's visual language, while streaking stars are the warp drive effect. (I think that Abrams just used Star Wars hyperdrive rules for Star Trek subspace, not realizing or caring that they are different things with their own rules of operation.)

Perhaps he was hoping that they could outrun it.

Now, I can't speak to Abrams' point of view, but here is my thoughts on the matter. First of all, I don't agree that he is using Star Wars rules for subspace. The concept of a warp drive is that it creates a bubble of subspace around the ship and that allows for FTL travel. Now, interestingly enough, we have seen a similar "tunnel" effect with the formation of a warp bubble. So, visually, we might be seeing the ships moving within their own warp bubble.

Also of interest is that the Vengeance's attack would work within Star Trek rules, because the larger ship would project a larger warp field and be able to merge its field with the Enterprise's warp bubble and fire its weapons without concern of relativistic adjustment. Also, it means that when the Enterprise falls out of warp, the Veneance effectively collapsed the warp bubble causing the ship to come back in to real space.

So, does it visually match up with what we have seen before? Not exactly, no. However, I think it lends a new visual look to a concept that is well established in Trek tech.

Well, he did always multiply his repair estimates by four...

How else can he keep that reputation...

 

[HaventGotALife]

Ok, my kind of thread. A discussion of multiple characters, exposing our values of the Trek universe, keeping it respectful, and people DO respond to you. I have to jump in here!

William Shatner's portrayal of James T. Kirk was as the youngest Captain in Starfleet, at 32. Every port, in the first season, seemed to have a friend, someone he worked with, or respected. There wasn't much fleshed out about Kirk in the original Bible from the show, from what I saw in special features or read on the internet. We see in "The Naked Time," the burden of command. We see in "The Enemy Within," that Kirk's dark side, perhaps mankind's dark side, the ID, is what makes him a capable Captain. He was able to lecture other races on the merits of their actions, like in "The Apple" or "Taste of Armageddon." He would avoid a battle at all costs--he was measured. For instance, in "The Corbomite Maneuver," his navigator wants to blast the cube into pieces, Kirk has to pull him up short twice to stop him from doing exactly that.

Chris Pine's portrayal of James T. Kirk is as a child lost--a rebel without a cause--needing Starfleet to give him a cause. He is the kid, going for a joyride against authority--the police, his parents--being destructive on the side of the cliff, barely escaping, as the car crashes down below. That's how they envision this character. He is a man of destiny (or flimsy plotting, depending on your definition). He is always looking for a thrill, the excitement, in his life. This is exhibited by his disregard for the rules (the thrill of doing something wrong, more than doing what is morally right), his sleeping with women (the thrill of bedding as many as he possibly can, always on the lookout for a new conquest), and being Captain of the Enterprise (the thrill of saving the world, the accomplishment of doing it). He is going 100 miles an hour, looking for a thrill. There's no reason for him to study, to catalog gaseous anomalies, because he isn't getting a thrill from it. He's an adrenaline junkie. So, the central question has yet to be answered: what is he compensating for? Will he be tempered when he figures out what he's running from? Why is he an adrenaline junkie?

So, that's my take on the two characters. They are not the same.

 

[WebLurker]

Interestingly enough, @Christopher has a discussion point about this in another thread.
You're telling me that the TNG crew being a part of First Contact or Tasha Yar going back in time and allowing Sela to be born were not problems that needed to be fixed?

I think that the First Contact example is implied in-universe to be a predestination paradox; the fallout of the Borg's time travel leads to "Regeneration" (ENT), where they send the Collective the coordinates of Earth (we know from "The Neutral Zone" [TNG] and "The Gift" [VOY] that the Borg were aware of humanity and operating around the Alpha and Beta Quadrants -- a long way from their home space -- years before the official first contact). We also get this little gem from "Relativity" (VOY):

Ducane [a time cop quizzing Seven of Nine on temporal mechanics]: "[Define] The Pogo Paradox."
Seven: "A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event." Ducane: "Excellent. Can you give me an example?"
Seven: "The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete."
Ducane: "So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg."
Seven: "You're welcome."

I haven't seen any of the original Sela episodes, but it's my understanding that the crew didn't really believe Sela's story. In this case, I could see the argument that it "should've" been fixed, but how would they do that, given that they weren't aware of the problem in the first place? (It also seems to be a "close enough" thing anyways.)

First of all, there is no reason to believe that Spock's original reality ceased to exist. Again, things changed around in "City on the Edge of Forever" and yet the heroes were able to return to their timeline. So, the idea that Spock couldn't fix it is, to me, a cop out.

Well, here's the thing. When the Guardian first starts showing them the places they can travel with his(?) abilities, he says: "Behold. A gateway to your own past, if you wish." Meaning, he's showing them the past of their timeline, the one they're in right now. But, when McCoy runs through the portal:

Kirk: Where is [McCoy]?
Guardian: "He has passed into... what was."
Uhura: "Captain, I've lost contact with the ship. I was talking to them. Suddenly, it went dead. No static, just nothing."
Kirk: "Kirk to Enterprise. Scotty?"
Scotty: "Nothing wrong with the communicator, sir."
Guardian: "Your vessel, your beginning, all that you knew is gone."
Kirk: "McCoy has somehow changed history."
Scotty: "You mean we're stranded down here?"
Spock: "With no past, no future."

Kirk then sums up the plot of the episode:

Captain's log, no stardate. For us, time does not exist. McCoy, back somewhere in the past, has effected a change in the course of time. All Earth history has been changed. There is no starship Enterprise. We have only one chance. We have asked the Guardian to show us Earth's history again. Spock and I will go back into time ourselves and attempt to set right what ever it was that McCoy changed.

Then, after fixing things, the crew come back and the Guardian says: "Time has resumed its shape. All is as it was before." So, I think there's evidence that this instance is where the timeline changed around the characters and they need to reset it, not them being shuffled off into a parallel universe, the way the Kelvin timeline supposedly works.

I blame that on the editing, because we get several time jumps that feel rather seamless.

Fair enough.

Yes, but it makes little to no sense to have it in a room that appears to be very unstable and not easily evacuated. I understand the purpose of the katric arks but the actual room itself makes little sense to me.

I'm pretty sure that the storage room wasn't designed with the destruction of the planet in mind. I also got the impression that the Vulcans weren't going there for safety, but to rescue stuff, then get away from there.

Well, you mentioned something about the Orions being presented wrong. I apologize if I misread that.

No prob, don't worry about it.

Which is what we also see within the Kelvin timeline. Regardless of how it came about, either as a branching or a quantum copy, there is divergence within the time line, making the Kelvin universe an alternate universe distinct in its own right.

Yeah, I'll buy that. The thing is, is that in the past, most time travel incidents that change history overwrite the original timeline, and on a surface examination, there's nothing to suggest that this wouldn't be the case here. So, that's where I feel the question lies; can we justify the exception? And different people see differently on that count.

It isn't just a matter of prerequisite tech but also application. As matter of example, how long has gun powder been around? Has the fundamentals of that explosive powder changed? Not really, but the application of its use have evolved over the many, many, years, with a wide variety of iterations.

Okay.

I think that the Alt-Federation has the technology, but, due to the threat of the Narada's attack and apparently a new Romulan war machine, they would need to look at the tech a different way. My argument is that the alt-Starfleet put more and more emphasis on weapons technology, engine output, and starship size.

But the larger ship sizes were seen with the Kelvin, which predated the time travel accident. So, Starfleet was clearly experimenting with larger ships before.

Yes, but there is always different angles to consider.

Okay.

Considering that in TOS era beaming from one part of the ship to another was considered hazardous, I'm not 100% about that. It seems to me that transporter technology relies heavily on ship based sensors to ensure safe beaming. Which, considering how wrong things go in ENT and in TOS that seems to be a legitimate concern. We see shuttles used a lot more to transport large groups of people,

I suppose. I have to admit that I'm not recalling a specific evidence for or against, now that I think about it.

Specifically stated? No. But, the larger ship design, the different style of weapons, and the less emphasis on exploration seem to indicate to me that Starfleet was far more in a defensive posture.

Okay.

Also, at least from my point of view, it makes sense that a government would grow more more worried about an attack from a power that they had only recently finished a war with. The Narada's attack would fuel concern that the Romulans were preparing for war again, and the Federation would rely upon Starfleet to be prepared to counters to the threat based upon what the Kelvin was able to do.

Okay.

I think they are a lot more safety conscious and certainly have some differences.

Maybe, although that scene still doesn't make that much sense to me.

You'll have to ask them

Guess so.

From the 1967 "Writer's Guide."

They list seven rules on page 5 (7 of the PDF in the link) that are to be used to create a show in the "Star Trek format." The first two are the ones that I thought of:
1. Build your episode on an action-adventure framework. We must reach out, hold, and entertain an audience of some 20, 000, 000 people or we simply don't stay on the air.
2. Tell your story about people, not about science and gadgetry. Joe Friday doesn't stop to explain the mechanics of his .38 before he uses it; Kildare never did a monologue about the theory of anesthetics; Matt Dillon never identifies and discusses the breed of his horse before he rides off on it.

Interesting.

As much as I enjoy technology and the different applications that Star Trek has put forward over the years, that isn't why I watch the show or the films. I enjoy the characters and their path, not just the trappings of their world. I can enjoy the trappings, but not to the point that it takes away from the characters. You can see my views on the Star Wars prequels to understand that.

Fair enough. I happen to like both the characters and the trappings, so that's why I don't like them monkeying around with it (the fact that the characters feel a lot different then they did in the original stories doesn't help). I don't recall what you said about the Star Wars prequels. (I happen to like them, personally.)

There are a few minor points that I don't enjoy about the film. The main one is Starkiller base. It feels very much like a retread of ANH and the Death Star Trench run. So, that wasn't the most original of moments, but, to be fair, the same complaint can be made about ROTJ. I just wish it hadn't been another galaxy destroying weapon.

Fair enough. I kind of liked Starkiller Base, more for the stuff that happened on it (Rey and Finn's reunion, Han confronting Kylo Ren, and the lightsaber duel) than the idea of it being another spherical space gun, I will concede. Also, given the First Order's worship of the Empire, I could understand that they might copy them a bit. And on top of that, the Star Wars movies have always paralleld each other with recurring ideas, homages, references, running jokes, meta humor, etc., so it didn't seem that out of place. So, between that, the fact that felt more like a backdrop to the main stories with the characters being sent on their life trajectories into the future, and the fact that there were differences, I wasn't bothered, but I can understand why others would be.

Also, the initial plan to kill off Poe.

I'm confused. You're annoyed that he wasn't killed off or that they were considering it?

Perhaps he was hoping that they could outrun it.

Maybe, but that wasn't the impression I got.

Now, I can't speak to Abrams' point of view, but here is my thoughts on the matter. First of all, I don't agree that he is using Star Wars rules for subspace. The concept of a warp drive is that it creates a bubble of subspace around the ship and that allows for FTL travel. Now, interestingly enough, we have seen a similar "tunnel" effect with the formation of a warp bubble. So, visually, we might be seeing the ships moving within their own warp bubble.

Where was that tunnel effect? I don't recall it.

Also of interest is that the Vengeance's attack would work within Star Trek rules, because the larger ship would project a larger warp field and be able to merge its field with the Enterprise's warp bubble and fire its weapons without concern of relativistic adjustment. Also, it means that when the Enterprise falls out of warp, the Veneance effectively collapsed the warp bubble causing the ship to come back in to real space.

I don't have a problem with the fight itself, just the visuals.

So, does it visually match up with what we have seen before? Not exactly, no. However, I think it lends a new visual look to a concept that is well established in Trek tech.

Fair enough, if you like it.

How else can he keep that reputation...

Multiplying by fives?