Did JJ ruin Kirk?

[Kor]

But Khan would still need to learn everything from scratch.

Prime Khan learned the ins and outs of starships pretty well by reading tech manuals in the Enterprise sick bay.

Also, how does savagery help with designing ships and ship's weapons? The point is, Khan is a man out of time, and even if he could be taught the stuff, it'd be more efficient to have modern inventors working on the new tech.

No doubt, Khan would be the "ideas" man who could be the project manager and conceptualize more destructive and savage weapons, as he was a warlord through and through. Individuals with more specific skills could deal with the minutiae of implementation.

I get the analogy, but if some one but sauce and cheese on a bagel and put it the toaster over, could be considered pizza? It may taste good, but is it truly pizza. That's kind of my thing. They changed enough things that it doesn't feel like a pizza anymore, but a bagel.

I love bagels. New York style or Montreal style?

I did like the uniforms, but the ship, while cool, looked too much like the altered timeline ships. I would've liked them to remove things like the window with all the graphics and just use a real viewscreen, have more ENT-style designs outside, made it a lot smaller than it was, etc.

We don't need to be told everything, but some stuff just doesn't make sense. Suddenly, warp drives are so much faster, Q'onoS is on the edge of the Klingon Neutral Zone. It feels like they wanted a total reboot, but left the time travel tie as if to claim legitimacy to the original franchise, even when the two models are at odds with each other.

It's a "broad strokes" depiction of Trek. I try not to over-analyze the minutiae.

Kor

 

[Ovation]

Montreal style, without question.

 

[fireproof78]

I suppose.

This isn't just my supposition. Shatner and Nimoy document GR's attempts to get around censors in their books.

Fair enough..

Thanks.

But Khan would still need to learn everything from scratch. Also, how does savagery help with designing ships and ship's weapons? The point is, Khan is a man out of time, and even if he could be taught the stuff, it'd be more efficient to have modern inventors working on the new tech. Also, if Marcus had to use Khan, make him a field agent (maybe with an explosive charge implanted in his head for insurance.

Possibly, but there is something to be said for a savage mind coming up with uses for technology. Also, this isn't the first time in science fiction that the trope of a "less advanced" civilization providing insight in to more violent ways to use technology.

I actually haven't seen this movie. Sorry.

Well, that kills that example. You should watch that movie though. Seriously.

Thanks.

No problem

This article has some insight into what the people making the reboot movies had in mind (since Trek '09 itself doesn't really explain much, or even confirm that the original continuity survived). This fan website has an interesting collection of time travel essays, including one that examines different models of time travel in relation to the franchise (plus the authors commentary series by series of the way time travel has been used in Star Trek). Finally (while not canon), novelist Christopher L. Bennett created a time travel model that tried to reconcile everything in his novel Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but it is a well-thought out theory. I like this article's summary of the theory. Here Bennett himself posted some annotations to the novel, including some of his reasoning behind the sci-fi science of his model.

I will have to give it a read through, and I have enjoyed Christopher's write ups on the BBS about time travels, so that sounds interesting.
Since the 09 authors cite "Parallels" as an inspiration, and nuSpock calls it an "alternate reality" it can be inferred that the Prime continuity survives.

Also, as a point of frustration, Abrams' Trek feels like the only time travel story that demands and explanation. The Mirror universe doesn't get one (all the TOS crew do is beam during an ion storm); "Parallels" gets a basic explanation, why Tasha Yar in "Yesterday's Enterprise" still exists after fixing the timeline isn't explained, among several examples.

I don't need time travel explained to me by the film itself. The crew treats it as an alternate reality and move on. Not sure why we need the physics of it or why Abrams' Trek has this litmus test demanded of it. It's very confusing and frustrating.

The new Klingons look like Orcs that got lost from filming Lord of the Rings. It smacked of trying to change something for no good reason. Also, the TOS movie and TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT Klingon designs all looked like they could be part of the same species. This one looked like it could be a different one.

As opposed to the Klingons from TOS to TMP to SFS? They all felt the same?

Also, Orcs? I'm sorry, but no way I'm buying in to that. I did a quick review of the Klingon that we actually see in ST ID, and he looks more like General Chang's style of make-up, with less prominent rigdes, with the unique piercings along them. As a quick way of comparing, this article discusses different Klingon make-up from TOS to ST ID.

I guess that, despite the movies trying to make Uhura the third most important character in the movies (replacing Dr. McCoy), she still isn't that interesting. She's got some nerve and she's Spock's girlfriend, but that seems to be about it.

She also is a talented linguist and can be a voice of reason in a crisis. I think she olds her own just fine among the ensemble.

But how many details are still relevant? TOS Chekov wasn't a prodigy like the new one is, TOS Kirk got credit for the Kobayashi Maru scenario, the new one almost got expelled over it (the details of the test are inconsistent between the movies, too), TOS Spock is very different in personality traits.

Chekov-in TOS, he was closer to a prodigy that he is often given credit for. He often serves as the stand in for Spock if Spock was on mission, as well as unique insight in to a problem. He also would serve as some comedic relief at times. He isn't the more bumbling comedy relief until the TOS films.
Kirk-nuKirk is more brazen. He doesn't care about the rules, while Prime Kirk would find other ways around the rules. As for the details of the test, I'm sure they update the test from time to time. I highly doubt military academies keep the exact same testing parameters every year.
Spock-this Spock has lost his entire world. I can safely assume that my personality would be different too.

Do you mean the behind the scenes book David Gerrold wrote or the "Trials and Tribble-lations" novelization, which included 99% of the original Tribbles episode, too?

Novelization. Quite fun

See above for my thoughts on this.

Sorry, I still don't see the objection. I don't feel like these are entirely new characters. I think the base traits are there, but that they are being put through circumstances that revealing other traits, or lack of development in areas. It's still interesting, regardless.

Okay. That's probably one reason I think the new TV show looks more interesting.

Based on what? That's it's going to be new? We have no information on it.

See above.

Mileage may vary point.

I get the analogy, but if some one but sauce and cheese on a bagel and put it the toaster over, could be considered pizza? It may taste good, but is it truly pizza. That's kind of my thing. They changed enough things that it doesn't feel like a pizza anymore, but a bagel.

Agree to disagree. I think they used a different crust and some different toppings but it's still pizza and worth discussing on the level as other pizza.

I did like the uniforms, but the ship, while cool, looked too much like the altered timeline ships. I would've liked them to remove things like the window with all the graphics and just use a real viewscreen, have more ENT-style designs outside, made it a lot smaller than it was, etc.

Smaller would have been nice, but it also came on the heals of the Romulan War so there is some flex there, for me. I think the Kelvin bridged NX class to TOS classes just fine.

We don't need to be told everything, but some stuff just doesn't make sense. Suddenly, warp drives are so much faster, Q'onoS is on the edge of the Klingon Neutral Zone. It feels like they wanted a total reboot, but left the time travel tie as if to claim legitimacy to the original franchise, even when the two models are at odds with each other.

And Warp 10 used to be no big deal. The warp scale changed several times in each series. I attribute the distances simply being a movie making pacing issue than anything else. Irritating but not a deal breaker.

Apple stores tend to have a plain, white motif to them. The Enterprise bridge is very white with lots of flashing displays. I don't like that bridge very much. The outside is okay, but the more rounded and soft-lined warp nacelles are bad fit with the more angular and straight-edged parts of the rest of the ship. (In a deleted scene for Into Darkness, they actually showed a wonderful hologram of an authentic TOS TV-era Constitution-class ship. In all honesty, I wish they had done that.

Sorry, definitely a mileage will vary moment. I love the new bridge, how much information is presented via the displays, and the fact that it feels functional. The angles of the new ship are good, except for the nacelles, which feel a little too big. But, that's a minor quibble, as overall I like the design.

 

[WebLurker]

This isn't just my supposition. Shatner and Nimoy document GR's attempts to get around censors in their books.

Sure. I just wasn't sure if Uhura flirting with Spock was intended to be something to put past the censors or just people reading too much into a single scene.

Possibly, but there is something to be said for a savage mind coming up with uses for technology. Also, this isn't the first time in science fiction that the trope of a "less advanced" civilization providing insight in to more violent ways to use technology.

"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people – as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..." - Quark, "The Siege of AR-558 (DS9)

While Khan could've been a useful agent, future humans haven't become completely docile.

Recruiting Khan just seems "fanfction-ey" to me. While he could've caught up and learned some stuff, it just seems bizarre.

I will have to give it a read through, and I have enjoyed Christopher's write ups on the BBS about time travels, so that sounds interesting.
Since the 09 authors cite "Parallels" as an inspiration, and nuSpock calls it an "alternate reality" it can be inferred that the Prime continuity survives.

Bennett's novel is a little dense (he uses a lot of real and fictional science melded together), but it's interesting, esp. with all the references to other time travel stories in the franchise.

The definition of quantum realities was given by Data in "Parallels": "For any event, there is an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcomes will follow. But there is a theory in quantum physics that all possibilities that can happen, do happen in alternate quantum realities." They have nothing to do with time travel. While "alternate reality" can refer to a parallel universe ("In a Mirror Darkly, Part I" [ENT]), it's a pretty generic term.

Also, as a point of frustration, Abrams' Trek feels like the only time travel story that demands and explanation. The Mirror universe doesn't get one (all the TOS crew do is beam during an ion storm); "Parallels" gets a basic explanation, why Tasha Yar in "Yesterday's Enterprise" still exists after fixing the timeline isn't explained, among several examples.

The mirror universe episodes are not time travel stories (except the mirror ENT's quest to steal a starship from the future of an alternate reality in "In a Mirror Darkly, Parts I and II" [ENT], and even that had the time-traveling part finished by the time the story picked up and explained how it worked).

The alternate Tasha Yar's survival makes sense, as it's a common element of Trek time travel that time travelers are completely protected from changes to history, even ones that eliminate their home timelines (e.g. Archer in "Shockwave, Part I" [ENT], Picard partially in "Time Squared" [TNG], Sisko in "The Visitor" [DS9], O'Brien in "Visionary" [DS9], Sisko expected this would happen in "Trials and Tribble-lations" [DS9], Janeway in "Endgame" [VGR], etc.). So, it's explained by being shown that it's how time travel works in this franchise.

I

don't need time travel explained to me by the film itself. The crew treats it as an alternate reality and move on. Not sure why we need the physics of it or why Abrams' Trek has this litmus test demanded of it. It's very confusing and frustrating.

People demand the explanation because the official one really doesn't work with the rules of Star Trek time travel (and yes, there have been differences over the years, but the generalities remain the same and the few differences can be fudged with factors like the kind of time machine used, the question of it's a predestination paradox or not, etc.). Of course the catch is that without the official explanation, the old continuity gets erased (in fact, just watching the movie by itself, that's what seems to happen). So, it's a catch-22.

As opposed to the Klingons from TOS to TMP to SFS? They all felt the same?

Similar enough.

Also, Orcs? I'm sorry, but no way I'm buying in to that. I did a quick review of the Klingon that we actually see in ST ID, and he looks more like General Chang's style of make-up, with less prominent rigdes, with the unique piercings along them. As a quick way of comparing, this article discusses different Klingon make-up from TOS to ST ID.

Klingons don't have pointed ears for one thing and the ridges go too far back behind the ears. The Orc comment is my subjective opinion. There have been differences in the makeup over the years, but this one just looks wrong in my opinion, like someone was trying to create a Klingon-like alien, instead of a Klingon.

She also is a talented linguist and can be a voice of reason in a crisis. I think she olds her own just fine among the ensemble.

Okay. Still not a fan, though.

Chekov-in TOS, he was closer to a prodigy that he is often given credit for. He often serves as the stand in for Spock if Spock was on mission, as well as unique insight in to a problem. He also would serve as some comedic relief at times. He isn't the more bumbling comedy relief until the TOS films.
Kirk-nuKirk is more brazen. He doesn't care about the rules, while Prime Kirk would find other ways around the rules. As for the details of the test, I'm sure they update the test from time to time. I highly doubt military academies keep the exact same testing parameters every year.
Spock-this Spock has lost his entire world. I can safely assume that my personality would be different too.

The fact that new Chekov looked nothing like the old one didn't help. I got the impression that the old one was smart, but not a child genius like he suddenly is now. The fact that they're born several years apart strongly suggests that they're genetically different people who had the same parents (like how in the Spider-Man franchise, Peter and Mary Jane Parker often raise a family, but the specific children they have depend on what universe you're in; Spider-Girl, Secret Wars/Renew Your Vows, etc.), which would resolve a lot of problems.

The point of the TWOK Kobayashi Maru is a character test. The point of the Abramsverse one is to force the cadet to experience fear (how that would work when they know it's a test I'm not sure, but the story needed Kirk to have no excuse to stand on). That's not much in common. Spock was acting differently even before Vulcan was destroyed.

Novelization. Quite fun

I think I have it too. Love the extra stuff, where the TOS characters start to wonder about the DS9 ones, but then dismiss it as unimportant.

Sorry, I still don't see the objection. I don't feel like these are entirely new characters. I think the base traits are there, but that they are being put through circumstances that revealing other traits, or lack of development in areas. It's still interesting, regardless.

I guess. But I still can't reconcile a lot of these characters with the ones from the TV show.

Based on what? That's it's going to be new? We have no information on it.

I know I don't like the Abrams movies series. I don't know if I'll like or dislike the new TV show, so I'm willing to stay optimistic until it comes and I can see it for myself.

Agree to disagree. I think they used a different crust and some different toppings but it's still pizza and worth discussing on the level as other pizza.

But at what point is there so much change that it ceases to be pizza?

Smaller would have been nice, but it also came on the heals of the Romulan War so there is some flex there, for me. I think the Kelvin bridged NX class to TOS classes just fine.

It just looked like a more primitive version of the alt-TOS ships we saw later. It didn't feel like this design would lead into the TOS TV show era, to me.

And Warp 10 used to be no big deal. The warp scale changed several times in each series. I attribute the distances simply being a movie making pacing issue than anything else. Irritating but not a deal breaker.

Suggesting that the entire hunt Khan mission in Into Darkness was claimed to be with a day was pretty messed up.

Sorry, definitely a mileage will vary moment. I love the new bridge, how much information is presented via the displays, and the fact that it feels functional. The angles of the new ship are good, except for the nacelles, which feel a little too big. But, that's a minor quibble, as overall I like the design.

Fair enough, but, as generally nice as the exterior looks, I will admit I think I'm going to enjoy seeing it destroyed in Beyond.[/QUOTE]

 

[fireproof78]

Sure. I just wasn't sure if Uhura flirting with Spock was intended to be something to put past the censors or just people reading too much into a single scene.

I'm rereading Nimoy's "I Am Spock" so I'll see what I can find

While Khan could've been a useful agent, future humans haven't become completely docile.

Recruiting Khan just seems "fanfction-ey" to me. While he could've caught up and learned some stuff, it just seems bizarre.

No, future humans haven't become completely docile, but that doesn't mean that they have the "outside the box" thinking to utilize their weapons in a way that facing Klingons might demand. Bearing in mind that Marcus' strikes me as being borderline paranoid, meaning that his reaction to the slightest provocation will be far more severe than warranted.

Bennett's novel is a little dense (he uses a lot of real and fictional science melded together), but it's interesting, esp. with all the references to other time travel stories in the franchise.

u/Christopher strikes me as very detail oriented and does his research.

The definition of quantum realities was given by Data in "Parallels": "For any event, there is an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcomes will follow. But there is a theory in quantum physics that all possibilities that can happen, do happen in alternate quantum realities." They have nothing to do with time travel. While "alternate reality" can refer to a parallel universe ("In a Mirror Darkly, Part I" [ENT]), it's a pretty generic term.

Exactly, it's a generic term. That doesn't mean that the Prime Continuity is destroyed because the Abrams' universe exists. It is a rather ridiculous conclusion to draw given the various time travel methods used in Star Trek.

Also, as a note, "In a Mirror Darkly," the interphase experienced by the Defiant techinically travels between alternate and realities and time.

The mirror universe episodes are not time travel stories (except the mirror ENT's quest to steal a starship from the future of an alternate reality in "In a Mirror Darkly, Parts I and II" [ENT], and even that had the time-traveling part finished by the time the story picked up and explained how it worked).

Explained how what worked? The interphase? It still is time travel and reality hopping.

The alternate Tasha Yar's survival makes sense, as it's a common element of Trek time travel that time travelers are completely protected from changes to history, even ones that eliminate their home timelines (e.g. Archer in "Shockwave, Part I" [ENT], Picard partially in "Time Squared" [TNG], Sisko in "The Visitor" [DS9], O'Brien in "Visionary" [DS9], Sisko expected this would happen in "Trials and Tribble-lations" [DS9], Janeway in "Endgame" [VGR], etc.). So, it's explained by being shown that it's how time travel works in this franchise.

By virtue of that argument, it only solidifies Spock Prime's experience, without having to worry about quantum.

People demand the explanation because the official one really doesn't work with the rules of Star Trek time travel (and yes, there have been differences over the years, but the generalities remain the same and the few differences can be fudged with factors like the kind of time machine used, the question of it's a predestination paradox or not, etc.). Of course the catch is that without the official explanation, the old continuity gets erased (in fact, just watching the movie by itself, that's what seems to happen). So, it's a catch-22.

There is no implication that the old continuity was erased. If that were the case, Spock Prime would have spent the movie trying to undo his mistake.

Similar enough.

Sorry, the transition from the TOS to TMP still feels jarring. The Klingon from ST ID and General Chang at least feel like the right transition from TOS to the films.

Klingons don't have pointed ears for one thing and the ridges go too far back behind the ears. The Orc comment is my subjective opinion. There have been differences in the makeup over the years, but this one just looks wrong in my opinion, like someone was trying to create a Klingon-like alien, instead of a Klingon.

Klingons can have pointed ears if they have a Romulan parent. But, this might be subjective too.

Okay. Still not a fan, though.

And that's fair.

The fact that new Chekov looked nothing like the old one didn't help. I got the impression that the old one was smart, but not a child genius like he suddenly is now. The fact that they're born several years apart strongly suggests that they're genetically different people who had the same parents (like how in the Spider-Man franchise, Peter and Mary Jane Parker often raise a family, but the specific children they have depend on what universe you're in; Spider-Girl, Secret Wars/Renew Your Vows, etc.), which would resolve a lot of problems.

This might be so, but they are not as different as often portrayed.

The point of the TWOK Kobayashi Maru is a character test. The point of the Abramsverse one is to force the cadet to experience fear (how that would work when they know it's a test I'm not sure, but the story needed Kirk to have no excuse to stand on). That's not much in common. Spock was acting differently even before Vulcan was destroyed.

You don't think that experiencing fear and maintaining control is not a character test? The general parameters of the test were the same, and the idea that Starfleet Academy would leave it completely unchanged over the years is ridiculous, since even contemporary colleges change their tests from time to time.

As for Spock, I don't think he is acting differently. The only difference, to me, is his relationship with Uhura. Beyond that, his interactions his parents, the interview with the Vulcan Science Academy and his exchange with Pike are all consistent with Spock's portrayal in early TOS, and then the transition due to the death cries of most of the Vulcan race. That has precedence in "The Immunity Syndrome" with Spock hearing the death cries of 400 Vulcans.

I think I have it too. Love the extra stuff, where the TOS characters start to wonder about the DS9 ones, but then dismiss it as unimportant.

Despite Gerrold's some times odd posts on Twitter, he is a good writer. The novelization, and the episode are quite good.

The rest of your responses were, unfortunately, tied up in a quote that I couldn't quite see (my browser has been very difficult lately).

 

[WebLurker]

The rest of your responses were, unfortunately, tied up in a quote that I couldn't quite see (my browser has been very difficult lately).

Sorry, I think I screwed up the tagging. Here's what you missed (I'll give you a chance to catch up before responding to that last post.

fireproof78 said: ↑
Sorry, I still don't see the objection. I don't feel like these are entirely new characters. I think the base traits are there, but that they are being put through circumstances that revealing other traits, or lack of development in areas. It's still interesting, regardless.[/quotes]

Me: I guess. But I still can't reconcile a lot of these characters with the ones from the TV show.

↑
Based on what? That's it's going to be new? We have no information on it.

Me: I know I don't like the Abrams movies series. I don't know if I'll like or dislike the new TV show, so I'm willing to stay optimistic until it comes and I can see it for myself.


↑
Agree to disagree. I think they used a different crust and some different toppings but it's still pizza and worth discussing on the level as other pizza.

Me: But at what point is there so much change that it ceases to be pizza?

↑
Smaller would have been nice, but it also came on the heals of the Romulan War so there is some flex there, for me. I think the Kelvin bridged NX class to TOS classes just fine.

Me: It just looked like a more primitive version of the alt-TOS ships we saw later. It didn't feel like this design would lead into the TOS TV show era, to me.

↑
And Warp 10 used to be no big deal. The warp scale changed several times in each series. I attribute the distances simply being a movie making pacing issue than anything else. Irritating but not a deal breaker.

Me: Suggesting that the entire hunt Khan mission in Into Darkness was claimed to be with a day was pretty messed up.

↑
Sorry, definitely a mileage will vary moment. I love the new bridge, how much information is presented via the displays, and the fact that it feels functional. The angles of the new ship are good, except for the nacelles, which feel a little too big. But, that's a minor quibble, as overall I like the design.

Me: Fair enough, but, as generally nice as the exterior looks, I will admit I think I'm going to enjoy seeing it destroyed in Beyond.

 

[M'Sharak]

<snip>

The rest of your responses were, unfortunately, tied up in a quote that I couldn't quite see (my browser has been very difficult lately).

Sorry, I think I screwed up the tagging. Here's what you missed (I'll give you a chance to catch up before responding to that last post. <snip>

I've fixed one tag which had an extra character in it, and that seems to have cleared up a lot. Let me know if there's anything else which still isn't right.

 

[WebLurker]

I've fixed one tag which had an extra character in it, and that seems to have cleared up a lot. Let me know if there's anything else which still isn't right.

Thank you.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess. But I still can't reconcile a lot of these characters with the ones from the TV show.

That's fair.

I know I don't like the Abrams movies series. I don't know if I'll like or dislike the new TV show, so I'm willing to stay optimistic until it comes and I can see it for myself.

I'm willing to be optimistic too, but there is nothing to compare it too. I just find it odd.

But at what point is there so much change that it ceases to be pizza?

When you order it from a Chinese restaurant
In all seriousness, I'm not sure. To me, Abrams' movies capture the spirit of TOS by being an action/adventure series with social commentary. Now, I'll completely fair in that it doesn't feel exactly like TOS, and takes a different tone than what TOS did. This is something that I think is for a more contemporary style for contemporary film audience. Which, as odd as it sounds, falls in line with something that GR acknowledged in TOS was their first job was to entertain.

Now, obviously, mileage will vary in terms of accepting this new tone and pacing. It certainly is different and takes the Star Trek world down a different path. And, as this discussion illustrates, not everyone likes it.

It just looked like a more primitive version of the alt-TOS ships we saw later. It didn't feel like this design would lead into the TOS TV show era, to me.

Fair enough. I disagree, primarily because Star Trek has shown rather different changes to starships, uniforms, and technology in even relatively short periods of time. TMP is only 20 years after TOS, yet the uniforms, ship design and overall tech have a different feel. If we didn't have the TOS crew as a through line then it would be difficult to reconcile the two.

Suggesting that the entire hunt Khan mission in Into Darkness was claimed to be with a day was pretty messed up.

Yeah, one of the downsides of the new films is definitely the pacing.

Fair enough, but, as generally nice as the exterior looks, I will admit I think I'm going to enjoy seeing it destroyed in Beyond.

To each their own I guess
Regardless of my personal feelings towards a ship design I would not find its destruction especially enjoyable.

I've fixed one tag which had an extra character in it, and that seems to have cleared up a lot. Let me know if there's anything else which still isn't right.

Thank you.

 

[Ovation]

I can't remember exactly where I came across it but the "one day, one bloody day" bit was acknowledged by Orci, I think, as a humorous moment that he later wished had been modified to "week" instead of "day". I choose to view it as a typical Scotty-like exaggeration ("we've come millions of miles" in TVH).

 

[apollo1984]

How can you ruin kirk? if you mean that he is nothing like the Kirk we knew from TOS and the movies thats fair, but equally I would expect it.

I mean JJ's Kirk grew up without his father, where as I think Prime Kirk did, this can alter someones personality more than you might think. For argument sake maybe prime Kirk was slightly less brash at the academy he may not have 'incurred' the same wrath from Spock over the kobiashi Maru incident or Kirk simply entered Starfleet at a much different time so other stuff does not happen, when it comes to this even the smallest snowball can turn into a avalanche.

 

[WebLurker]

No, future humans haven't become completely docile, but that doesn't mean that they have the "outside the box" thinking to utilize their weapons in a way that facing Klingons might demand. Bearing in mind that Marcus' strikes me as being borderline paranoid, meaning that his reaction to the slightest provocation will be far more severe than warranted.

But the Federation has had more experience with Klingons than Khan has and have held their own against them in combat before ("Trouble With Tribbles" [TOS]). I can get that Marcus is paranoid and is probably not thinking rationally, but I can't see anything that Khan offers that would outweigh the risks of using him, esp. since what he can do, others can do.

u/Christopher strikes me as very detail oriented and does his research.

Yeah, I don't agree with every single conclusion he reaches, but his plots and story-telling decisions are well-thought out, so I would consider him one of the better Trek novelists in recent times.

Exactly, it's a generic term. That doesn't mean that the Prime Continuity is destroyed because the Abrams' universe exists. It is a rather ridiculous conclusion to draw given the various time travel methods used in Star Trek.

Well, none of the other time travel methods have even involved the act of going back in time sending the travelers to a newly-created parallel universe. We consistently see that the original timeline is changed w(e.g. "Yesterday's Enterprise" [TNG], "Past Prologue, Parts I and II" [DS9], "Before and After" [VGR], "Year of Hell, Parts I and II" [VGR], Star Trek: First Contact, et al).

Now, there are ways to fudge it (I think the quantum reality rule where different outcomes of events, including time travel, create new quantum realities is the simplest), but .

Also, as a note, "In a Mirror Darkly," the interphase experienced by the Defiant techinically travels between alternate and realities and time.

Explained how what worked? The interphase? It still is time travel and reality hopping.

But of a different stripe than the '09 movie's suggestion. The Defiant was sent back in time to an earlier era of a preexisting parallel universe. The '09 movie suggests that the Narada got set back in time to an earlier era of it's own universe (the prime universe) and that created a branched off reality. That's not how the Force works (to quote Han Solo), as 99.99% of every single other Star Trek time travel story has depicted.

By virtue of that argument, it only solidifies Spock Prime's experience, without having to worry about quantum.

I have no problem with Spock Prime's continued existence in the Abramsverse, as that is consistent with the Star Trek time travel model.

There is no implication that the old continuity was erased. If that were the case, Spock Prime would have spent the movie trying to undo his mistake.

Oh, I think they implied it, all right:

NuSpock: "Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party."

NuUhura: "An alternate reality?"

NuSpock: "Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed."

It sure sounds like they're talking about one timeline getting altered, rather than a new one branching off an old one.

The real reason that Spock Prime did nothing is that it's a franchise reboot. In-universe, I got the impression that Spock Prime lacked the resources to repair the timeline himself, so was settling for trying to get things close (like getting his old crew together). (I think the real question is why the time cops from VGR and ENT didn't do anything.)

However, I do believe that the old continuity survived the whole incident; I just disagree with the time travel model the filmmakers claim is used.

Sorry, the transition from the TOS to TMP still feels jarring. The Klingon from ST ID and General Chang at least feel like the right transition from TOS to the films.

Fair enough.

Klingons can have pointed ears if they have a Romulan parent. But, this might be subjective too.

While Star Trek has modified it's alien makeup over time, it's usually close enough that it can be chalked up to genetic variations (like how humans in real life have different skin tones, eye structures, types of hair, etc.). To me, the new Klingon didn't quite fit in a movie that I already have a very hard time believing is the same world as the original franchise. Had the Abramsverse been a clean reboot, I would've thought the new Klingon was a clever redesign, but the didn't, so I don't.

This might be so, but they are not as different as often portrayed.

I'm not so sure, but I feel really bad criticizing the new Chekov, given actor Anton Yelchin's unexpected passing.

You don't think that experiencing fear and maintaining control is not a character test? The general parameters of the test were the same, and the idea that Starfleet Academy would leave it completely unchanged over the years is ridiculous, since even contemporary colleges change their tests from time to time.

With this scene, I really feel like the filmmakers were taking an element of the franchise that had name recognition among fans and threw it into the movie without thinking about how it was used. Kind of like knowing the notes, but not the music.

As for Spock, I don't think he is acting differently. The only difference, to me, is his relationship with Uhura. Beyond that, his interactions his parents, the interview with the Vulcan Science Academy and his exchange with Pike are all consistent with Spock's portrayal in early TOS, and then the transition due to the death cries of most of the Vulcan race. That has precedence in "The Immunity Syndrome" with Spock hearing the death cries of 400 Vulcans.

Well, here's the thing. In "The Naked Time" (TOS), where the Spock character really became defined, he has this line: "I respected my father, our customs. I was ashamed of my Earth blood. Jim, when I feel friendship for you, I'm ashamed."

Also, McCoy gives this assessment of Spock in "Bread and Circuses" (TOS): "Do you know why you're not afraid to die, Spock? You're more afraid of living. Each day you stay alive is just one more day you might slip and let your human half peek out. That's it, isn't it?"

It's debatable whether the destruction of Vulcan would be enough to change NuSpock to the extent he is in the movies (I would buy that), but even prior, this is not the same character from the old TV show.

I don't really follow the argument you're making with "The Immunity Syndrome," though. Spock does react, but keeps his composure, regardless of how he's actually feeling at the moment.[/quote]

I'm willing to be optimistic too, but there is nothing to compare it too. I just find it odd.

Well, I haven't liked the Abrams movies, but I still like Star Trek, so I do have higher hopes for that over a new Abrams movie.

When you order it from a Chinese restaurant
In all seriousness, I'm not sure. To me, Abrams' movies capture the spirit of TOS by being an action/adventure series with social commentary. Now, I'll completely fair in that it doesn't feel exactly like TOS, and takes a different tone than what TOS did. This is something that I think is for a more contemporary style for contemporary film audience. Which, as odd as it sounds, falls in line with something that GR acknowledged in TOS was their first job was to entertain.

Now, obviously, mileage will vary in terms of accepting this new tone and pacing. It certainly is different and takes the Star Trek world down a different path. And, as this discussion illustrates, not everyone likes it.

Yeah, that's the sticker.

Fair enough. I disagree, primarily because Star Trek has shown rather different changes to starships, uniforms, and technology in even relatively short periods of time. TMP is only 20 years after TOS, yet the uniforms, ship design and overall tech have a different feel. If we didn't have the TOS crew as a through line then it would be difficult to reconcile the two.

Fair enough. However, there has been extensive overlap and foreshadowing (ENT reused the TOS uniform colors, TNG/DS9/VGR often used TOS movie ship models, etc.) So, it feels more unified, where the Kelvin scenes have very little that suggests either ENT or pre-TOS era designs.

To each their own I guess
Regardless of my personal feelings towards a ship design I would not find its destruction especially enjoyable.

Well, I was being a little facetious there. I do find it hard to have any attachment to this Enterprise, since to me it's more like a brand-new ship I don't like the design of rather than an alternate version of the TOS ship, so if it was replaced with a model more in line with the TV Enterprise (or at least rebuilt to look more like it), I would be very happy.

Also, regardless of what I think of the series, a story idea with the crew stranded on a hostile planet and their ship destroyed is an intriguing story idea. Of the three movies, Beyond does sound the most interesting to me on paper.

 

[fireproof78]

But the Federation has had more experience with Klingons than Khan has and have held their own against them in combat before ("Trouble With Tribbles" [TOS]). I can get that Marcus is paranoid and is probably not thinking rationally, but I can't see anything that Khan offers that would outweigh the risks of using him, esp. since what he can do, others can do.

Let me see if I can draw a real world example to help with my thoughts. I have worked in a retail environment for 10 years now. Now, generally speaking, the company work for hires on consultants to their board to advise on business. However, there are times when the company wants an outside perspective and brings on someone who isn't familiar with the business to address the problem from a wholly different perspective.

I think that Marcus would have continued on his path to manufacturing war with the Klingons without Khan or the Vengeance if the Narada hadn't attacked. I think the savageness of the attack, and the loss of Vulcan, as well as the Narada's size, may have prompted him to find something that the Klingons wouldn't expect.

Yeah, I don't agree with every single conclusion he reaches, but his plots and story-telling decisions are well-thought out, so I would consider him one of the better Trek novelists in recent times.

I have yet to find a person who likes Star Trek (or any franchise) that I agree with everything on.

Well, none of the other time travel methods have even involved the act of going back in time sending the travelers to a newly-created parallel universe. We consistently see that the original timeline is changed w(e.g. "Yesterday's Enterprise" [TNG], "Past Prologue, Parts I and II" [DS9], "Before and After" [VGR], "Year of Hell, Parts I and II" [VGR], Star Trek: First Contact, et al).

.

Now, there are ways to fudge it (I think the quantum reality rule where different outcomes of events, including time travel, create new quantum realities is the simplest), but .[/QUOTE]
I think "Parallels" establishes the creation of parallel realities within specific moments and that they continue on, even if unobserved. So, I don't see it as problematic. It's simply time travel that's a different twist on things we have seen before.

But of a different stripe than the '09 movie's suggestion. The Defiant was sent back in time to an earlier era of a preexisting parallel universe. The '09 movie suggests that the Narada got set back in time to an earlier era of it's own universe (the prime universe) and that created a branched off reality. That's not how the Force works (to quote Han Solo), as 99.99% of every single other Star Trek time travel story has depicted.

I disagree. I think that quantum parallel realities provide a simple explanation for how the Narada's time travel also resulted in a quantum divergence, probably due to the red matter.

I have no problem with Spock Prime's continued existence in the Abramsverse, as that is consistent with the Star Trek time travel model.

I do, based upon your assertions, if I accept it as standard time travel.

Oh, I think they implied it, all right:



It sure sounds like they're talking about one timeline getting altered, rather than a new one branching off an old one.

The emphasis should be on Uhura's "An alternate reality?" question. Taken with authorial intent and the attack on the Kelvin can be viewed as the branch from the Prime continuity, a new quantum reality created in that moment.

The real reason that Spock Prime did nothing is that it's a franchise reboot. In-universe, I got the impression that Spock Prime lacked the resources to repair the timeline himself, so was settling for trying to get things close (like getting his old crew together). (I think the real question is why the time cops from VGR and ENT didn't do anything.)

The moment that he told nu-Kirk that he needed to stop Nero, he could have thrown in "Hey, get that red matter stuff so I can go home."

However, I do believe that the old continuity survived the whole incident; I just disagree with the time travel model the filmmakers claim is used.

I don't see any issues with their model, at least, as far as within the realm of Star Trek lore.

Fair enough.

While Star Trek has modified it's alien makeup over time, it's usually close enough that it can be chalked up to genetic variations (like how humans in real life have different skin tones, eye structures, types of hair, etc.). To me, the new Klingon didn't quite fit in a movie that I already have a very hard time believing is the same world as the original franchise. Had the Abramsverse been a clean reboot, I would've thought the new Klingon was a clever redesign, but the didn't, so I don't.

I agree that a clean reboot would have been better, but I don't see a problem with the Klingon design either. Again, mileage may vary.

I'm not so sure, but I feel really bad criticizing the new Chekov, given actor Anton Yelchin's unexpected passing.

Fair point.

With this scene, I really feel like the filmmakers were taking an element of the franchise that had name recognition among fans and threw it into the movie without thinking about how it was used. Kind of like knowing the notes, but not the music.

I don't see that at all. I think it shows different iterations of the test, and the emphasis that has come about with Starfleet's emphasis.

Well, here's the thing. In "The Naked Time" (TOS), where the Spock character really became defined, he has this line: "I respected my father, our customs. I was ashamed of my Earth blood. Jim, when I feel friendship for you, I'm ashamed."

Also, McCoy gives this assessment of Spock in "Bread and Circuses" (TOS): "Do you know why you're not afraid to die, Spock? You're more afraid of living. Each day you stay alive is just one more day you might slip and let your human half peek out. That's it, isn't it?"

It's debatable whether the destruction of Vulcan would be enough to change NuSpock to the extent he is in the movies (I would buy that), but even prior, this is not the same character from
the old TV show.

I don't really follow the argument you're making with "The Immunity Syndrome," though. Spock does react, but keeps his composure, regardless of how he's actually feeling at the moment.

I wonder why it's debatable? The through line of Spock is that he remains composed, but that there is an underlying tension of emotion in him that is kept away from the surface. This is showcased in the episodes you listed as "The Naked Time" is also one where Spock breaks down because he never told his mother how much he loved her. The idea that Spock is ashamed of his humanity is also interesting, given the fact that he and his father eventually reconcile on a deeper level after Sarek recognizes Kirk's loyalty to him.

My larger point of "Immunity Syndrome" is that, if 400 Vulcans was enough to trouble him, then the loss of 6 billion (give or take) would be enough to push it past his composure. Again, the film takes hints from TOS and builds upon them to show us potential impact upon the characters.

Now, for your argument that Spock is much different in the films than TOS, I will concede that point that this Spock is on a different journey, and I think that the films are taking the characters are on the path less traveled, as it were. In so doing, the film exposes what is important to their Prime Counterparts.

I don't see them as entirely different people, but the basic characters being taken in a different direction. I don't know if that is articulated well, but that's my overall feel.

Well, I haven't liked the Abrams movies, but I still like Star Trek, so I do have higher hopes for that over a new Abrams movie.

I don't like TWOK or TMP or ENT, but I still like Star Trek. The idea that something must be liked in order to be counted as Star Trek is the idea that I will fight against.

Yeah, that's the sticker.

Not sure I follow, but hey, my pizza analogy went overlong too.

Fair enough. However, there has been extensive overlap and foreshadowing (ENT reused the TOS uniform colors, TNG/DS9/VGR often used TOS movie ship models, etc.) So, it feels more unified, where the Kelvin scenes have very little that suggests either ENT or pre-TOS era designs.

Here's my feel on it, but I get your position. I feel that the Kelvin was a little more smoothed out lines from the NX series. The uniforms still had the tighter feel of the jumpsuits, with the coloring of the command staff being a blue tone of the NX jumpsuits as well, so it flowed for me, but also see the evolution to the pants and shirt combo in TOS. A little different colors, which actually feel a little more like the subdued like the pilot uniforms.

Well, I was being a little facetious there. I do find it hard to have any attachment to this Enterprise, since to me it's more like a brand-new ship I don't like the design of rather than an alternate version of the TOS ship, so if it was replaced with a model more in line with the TV Enterprise (or at least rebuilt to look more like it), I would be very happy.
The ship that have the most attachment to is the TOS Enterprise, hands down. No other Starfleet vessel has impressed me the way that ship has. I would be happy if the next Enterprise looks a little bit closer to the TOS ship, but if it doesn't, I'm ok with it.

Also, I'm always ok with at least seeing a new ship design.

Also, regardless of what I think of the series, a story idea with the crew stranded on a hostile planet and their ship destroyed is an intriguing story idea. Of the three movies, Beyond does sound the most interesting to me on paper.

Hopefully the film is enjoyable for you too.

 

[WebLurker]

Let me see if I can draw a real world example to help with my thoughts. I have worked in a retail environment for 10 years now. Now, generally speaking, the company work for hires on consultants to their board to advise on business. However, there are times when the company wants an outside perspective and brings on someone who isn't familiar with the business to address the problem from a wholly different perspective.

I think that Marcus would have continued on his path to manufacturing war with the Klingons without Khan or the Vengeance if the Narada hadn't attacked. I think the savageness of the attack, and the loss of Vulcan, as well as the Narada's size, may have prompted him to find something that the Klingons wouldn't expect.

Okay, I think I understand where you're coming from better, esp. with the possibility that Marcus could've had access to the records of the Augment incidents from ENT and known that Augments have proven to easily TKO Klingons. (One think I will say for Abramsverse Khan, they did represent his physical abilities -- aside from that magic blood stuff -- exactly in line with the ENT Augments, a situation original Khan never found himself in.)

However, I'm still not sure Khan was the best choice. Granted, he is an Augment, but wouldn't a Zakdorn be a better choice for a tactical advisor? Or Bynars for technical work? To get Khan usable, they'd have to catch him up on all the advancements he missed out on (which he could do, but it would take time) and they had to hold a gun to his head to keep him from turning on them.

Even if Marcus wanted the best possible weapon, there seem to be simpler ways to get the same result with far less risk.

I have yet to find a person who likes Star Trek (or any franchise) that I agree with everything on.

Agreed.

I think "Parallels" establishes the creation of parallel realities within specific moments and that they continue on, even if unobserved. So, I don't see it as problematic. It's simply time travel that's a different twist on things we have seen before.

I agree with that definition of how parallel quantum realities are formed (the fact that Worf could travel to them proved that they were real places that existed). However, the creation of parallel universes as an exact part of time travel has never been established before, and in my opinion, contradicts several previous time travel stories.

I disagree. I think that quantum parallel realities provide a simple explanation for how the Narada's time travel also resulted in a quantum divergence, probably due to the red matter.

We don't know for a fact that the Abramsverse is a quantum reality. I like that explanation, since it means that the creation of a new universe was not a part of the time travel itself, but given that the red matter was only designed to create black holes, who can say?

I do, based upon your assertions, if I accept it as standard time travel.

Even the episodes that follow my model of time travel always show the time traveler not personally being affected by the changes, even if he or she accidentally erased themselves from existence, so I don't see what the problem it.

The emphasis should be on Uhura's "An alternate reality?" question. Taken with authorial intent and the attack on the Kelvin can be viewed as the branch from the Prime continuity, a new quantum reality created in that moment.

Could be, but "alternate reality" is a very generic term that means different things depending on the context. Also, the emphasis is on Spock explaining that the future has changed (he's arguing that Kirk's belief that they can use the original future as an accurate guide is wrong). Also, the movie would work exactly the same way regardless of whether the alternate reality was a coexisting parallel universe or the end result of the prime universe being overwritten.

The moment that he told nu-Kirk that he needed to stop Nero, he could have thrown in "Hey, get that red matter stuff so I can go home."

How could Spock use the red matter to get home? The time travel was an accident and not only uncertain if it could be repeated, but also with no control over the destination. Using the slingshot effect would be more sure. But how could he do that? If he went to the future, he'd only get the future of the alternate reality.

The only ways I see he could get home would be to either find a way to travel across parallel universes (beyond 23rd century science) or go back in time and somehow get Nero away before he attacks the Kelvin (arguably the right thing to do, but equally unlikely with his resources and the odds that anyone who could help him wouldn't believe his claims). So, I think he was stuck, hence why he seemed most interested in trying to get some version of the TOS crew together.

I don't see any issues with their model, at least, as far as within the realm of Star Trek lore.

Fair enough. I have tried to explain why I disagree.

I agree that a clean reboot would have been better, but I don't see a problem with the Klingon design either. Again, mileage may vary.

Fair enough.

I don't see that at all. I think it shows different iterations of the test, and the emphasis that has come about with Starfleet's emphasis.

I don't agree, but fair enough.

I wonder why it's debatable? The through line of Spock is that he remains composed, but that there is an underlying tension of emotion in him that is kept away from the surface. This is showcased in the episodes you listed as "The Naked Time" is also one where Spock breaks down because he never told his mother how much he loved her. The idea that Spock is ashamed of his humanity is also interesting, given the fact that he and his father eventually reconcile on a deeper level after Sarek recognizes Kirk's loyalty to him.

My larger point of "Immunity Syndrome" is that, if 400 Vulcans was enough to trouble him, then the loss of 6 billion (give or take) would be enough to push it past his composure. Again, the film takes hints from TOS and builds upon them to show us potential impact upon the characters.

I'm not disagreeing that his immediate reaction isn't too out of character, but the difference to me is that old Spock was trying hard to be the Vulcan's Vulcan in spite of it, while new Spock seems to be trying to incorporate the human element in it.

Now, for your argument that Spock is much different in the films than TOS, I will concede that point that this Spock is on a different journey, and I think that the films are taking the characters are on the path less traveled, as it were. In so doing, the film exposes what is important to their Prime Counterparts.

I think the problem is that the new movie's didn't really justify the change in character that much, to me. I do understand that his loss in the first movie would have a profound impact on him, but the missing link between the all Vulcan Spock and the balanced Spock wasn't there (IMHO), the way it was in the old movies.

I don't see them as entirely different people, but the basic characters being taken in a different direction. I don't know if that is articulated well, but that's my overall feel.

I don't agree at all, but I understand what you're saying.

I don't like TWOK or TMP or ENT, but I still like Star Trek. The idea that something must be liked in order to be counted as Star Trek is the idea that I will fight against.

Very fair. I think my opinions on the TV show have gotten a little muddled with the question of the accuracy of the Abrams movies. The point is, I like the idea of the TV show and am looking forward to it so far. I have not enjoyed the Abrams movies so far, and am so not looking forward to the new one that much.

Here's my feel on it, but I get your position. I feel that the Kelvin was a little more smoothed out lines from the NX series. The uniforms still had the tighter feel of the jumpsuits, with the coloring of the command staff being a blue tone of the NX jumpsuits as well, so it flowed for me, but also see the evolution to the pants and shirt combo in TOS. A little different colors, which actually feel a little more like the subdued like the pilot uniforms.

Okay.

 

[fireproof78]

Okay, I think I understand where you're coming from better, esp. with the possibility that Marcus could've had access to the records of the Augment incidents from ENT and known that Augments have proven to easily TKO Klingons. (One think I will say for Abramsverse Khan, they did represent his physical abilities -- aside from that magic blood stuff -- exactly in line with the ENT Augments, a situation original Khan never found himself in.)

However, I'm still not sure Khan was the best choice. Granted, he is an Augment, but wouldn't a Zakdorn be a better choice for a tactical advisor? Or Bynars for technical work? To get Khan usable, they'd have to catch him up on all the advancements he missed out on (which he could do, but it would take time) and they had to hold a gun to his head to keep him from turning on them.

Even if Marcus wanted the best possible weapon, there seem to be simpler ways to get the same result with far less risk.

Certainly, but that doesn't mean that his idea is entirely out of order. He's trying to take an unconventional tactic to outwit a threat that he feels the Federation is unprepared for, especially after the Narada's attack. How many ships were lost in attack on Vulcan and Earth? If the Klingons see the Federation as weakened by the attack, what's to stop them from building up their war machine?

Agreed.

Hey, thanks

I agree with that definition of how parallel quantum realities are formed (the fact that Worf could travel to them proved that they were real places that existed). However, the creation of parallel universes as an exact part of time travel has never been established before, and in my opinion, contradicts several previous time travel stories.

Just because it's never been established prior doesn't mean it can't be added in to the lore.

We don't know for a fact that the Abramsverse is a quantum reality. I like that explanation, since it means that the creation of a new universe was not a part of the time travel itself, but given that the red matter was only designed to create black holes, who can say?

Well, we have authorial intent, given that Orci and Kurtzman cite "Parallels" as their inspiration.

Even the episodes that follow my model of time travel always show the time traveler not personally being affected by the changes, even if he or she accidentally erased themselves from existence, so I don't see what the problem it.

Pretty sure that "Yesterday's Enterprise" has an incident where only one person is really aware of the changes to the time line.

Could be, but "alternate reality" is a very generic term that means different things depending on the context. Also, the emphasis is on Spock explaining that the future has changed (he's arguing that Kirk's belief that they can use the original future as an accurate guide is wrong). Also, the movie would work exactly the same way regardless of whether the alternate reality was a coexisting parallel universe or the end result of the prime universe being overwritten.

Sure, it could work exactly the same, but why does it have to be so?

How could Spock use the red matter to get home? The time travel was an accident and not only uncertain if it could be repeated, but also with no control over the destination. Using the slingshot effect would be more sure. But how could he do that? If he went to the future, he'd only get the future of the alternate reality.

The only ways I see he could get home would be to either find a way to travel across parallel universes (beyond 23rd century science) or go back in time and somehow get Nero away before he attacks the Kelvin (arguably the right thing to do, but equally unlikely with his resources and the odds that anyone who could help him wouldn't believe his claims). So, I think he was stuck, hence why he seemed most interested in trying to get some version of the TOS crew together.

You really don't think Spock, with 200 years of knowledge, can't determine a way to utilize red matter to calculate a way back to his own reality, or, as you suggest, back to stop Nero's incursion?
There are so many different ways of time travel and reality jumping known, especially to Spock, that he could probably figure something out. Also, in most time travel stories, the person aware of the change would usually go back and undo the change.

Fair enough. I have tried to explain why I disagree.

Fair enough. I understand that there are different arguments about time travel, but I think Star Trek is diverse enough to allow an introduction of a new variable.

Fair enough.

Thank you.

I don't agree, but fair enough.

Again, thank you.

I'm not disagreeing that his immediate reaction isn't too out of character, but the difference to me is that old Spock was trying hard to be the Vulcan's Vulcan in spite of it, while new Spock seems to be trying to incorporate the human element in it.

That seems to fall in line, given his relationship with his mother and her loss on Vulcan.

I think the problem is that the new movie's didn't really justify the change in character that much, to me. I do understand that his loss in the first movie would have a profound impact on him, but the missing link between the all Vulcan Spock and the balanced Spock wasn't there (IMHO), the way it was in the old movies.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think the loss of Vulcan and the loss of his mother, the pain is both immense and personal. The idea that it won't impact Spock in a profound way that he would need to process through strikes me as more unrealistic. I personally can appreciate the fact that the films are willing to explore some more complex problems that are not completely resolved by the end of the film.

I don't agree at all, but I understand what you're saying.

Well, good, because I was afraid I was being unclear.

Very fair. I think my opinions on the TV show have gotten a little muddled with the question of the accuracy of the Abrams movies. The point is, I like the idea of the TV show and am looking forward to it so far. I have not enjoyed the Abrams movies so far, and am so not looking forward to the new one that much.

I like the idea of the TV show too. I'm hoping it explores a whole different facet of Trek or reboots it entirely. I just enjoy the films too, so that is where the difference lies, I think.

Okay.

I'll say that I think the Kelvin could have stood to be smaller, and perhaps called back to the NX series a little more. I've always already gripped that there was a huge missed opportunity for laser pistols.

 

[WebLurker]

Certainly, but that doesn't mean that his idea is entirely out of order. He's trying to take an unconventional tactic to outwit a threat that he feels the Federation is unprepared for, especially after the Narada's attack. How many ships were lost in attack on Vulcan and Earth? If the Klingons see the Federation as weakened by the attack, what's to stop them from building up their war machine?

Maybe. It's just a plot point that feels like it was made for the sake of being cool more than anything else, and I guess it just didn't work for me. The fact that I'm not very fond of this version of Khan doesn't help.

Just because it's never been established prior doesn't mean it can't be added in to the lore.

That's a fair observation and new additions like this have happened before. I will explain later why I have trouble with this addition, though.

Well, we have authorial intent, given that Orci and Kurtzman cite "Parallels" as their inspiration.

True, but I'd be more inclined to accept their explanation as is if it meshed with the onscreen information. On the other hand, all explanations I come up with try to balance the spirit of their intent (that the movies are a parallel universe to the rest of the franchise) with mechanics that fit the other shows and movies.

Pretty sure that "Yesterday's Enterprise" has an incident where only one person is really aware of the changes to the time line.

That was Guinen, who is implied to have some memory or at least deja vu of the war timeline. The interesting thing is that she was affected by the change, too. In the war timeline, Yar at one point comments that Guinen was acting normally before encountering the Enterprise-C. The only way this is addressed is with the war timeline Data theorizing that the El-Aurians may have senses that other species do not.

Sure, it could work exactly the same, but why does it have to be so?

It doesn't, but when watching the movie, I feel like I'm being told: "The prime universe from ENT onwards has been erased and replaced with this." That was my assumption for a long time. It wasn't until after the fact that I heard that the filmmakers intended the two to coexist in the same multiverse.

Had they indicated in the movie itself that the old continuity survived, I may have been more forgiving, since it would feel a lot less like a replacement. (Yeah, I'm getting into subjectivity here, but I have a hard time getting past the suspicion that the parallel universe explanation was invented only to reassure us old school fans.)

You really don't think Spock, with 200 years of knowledge, can't determine a way to utilize red matter to calculate a way back to his own reality, or, as you suggest, back to stop Nero's incursion?
There are so many different ways of time travel and reality jumping known, especially to Spock, that he could probably figure something out. Also, in most time travel stories, the person aware of the change would usually go back and undo the change.

Well, he was able to build a computer out of "stone knives and bear skins," so I suppose. I just question if he would have the technology and resources to carry out any plan. I mean, how would he stop the incursion in the first place.

Fair enough. I understand that there are different arguments about time travel, but I think Star Trek is diverse enough to allow an introduction of a new variable.

There have been variations, but the idea that time travel affects the original timeline is such a common element that suddenly using a different model seems out of place to me. Kind of a "if this was possible, we would've seen it before" kind of thing, esp. since so many Star Trek time travel stories depend on no parallel universes to work.

Thank you.

Again, thank you.

You're welcome.

That seems to fall in line, given his relationship with his mother and her loss on Vulcan.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think the loss of Vulcan and the loss of his mother, the pain is both immense and personal. The idea that it won't impact Spock in a profound way that he would need to process through strikes me as more unrealistic. I personally can appreciate the fact that the films are willing to explore some more complex problems that are not completely resolved by the end of the film.

Okay, that's a very fair point. I guess I wish that the character was written closer to the TOS version in his soul searching. The "having him find a balance between his two backgrounds" arc was more interesting (IMHO), after the backstory of him trying to be only one, rather than using it as his first story arc. (And for what it's worth, I think all my problems are with the writing, because Zachary Quinto was a good casting choice; he looks and sounds a lot the TOS Spock, and his gives a good performance with what he's given.)

Well, good, because I was afraid I was being unclear.

I think you doing a generally good job of explaining your position.

I like the idea of the TV show too. I'm hoping it explores a whole different facet of Trek or reboots it entirely. I just enjoy the films too, so that is where the difference lies, I think.

Fair enough.

I'll say that I think the Kelvin could have stood to be smaller, and perhaps called back to the NX series a little more. I've always already gripped that there was a huge missed opportunity for laser pistols.

I actually didn't mind the phaser pistols in this movie that much.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe. It's just a plot point that feels like it was made for the sake of being cool more than anything else, and I guess it just didn't work for me. The fact that I'm not very fond of this version of Khan doesn't help.

I think Benedict would have been better as just John Harrison. But, for what we got, I have no problems with him as Khan, which is probably the difference.

That's a fair observation and new additions like this have happened before. I will explain later why I have trouble with this addition, though.

Fair enough.

True, but I'd be more inclined to accept their explanation as is if it meshed with the onscreen information. On the other hand, all explanations I come up with try to balance the spirit of their intent (that the movies are a parallel universe to the rest of the franchise) with mechanics that fit the other shows and movies.

Also true, but the on screen circumstances also involve a variable that had not been seen before in Trek lore in the red matter. Which, as many different aspects of time travel and alternate dimensions have been introduced in Star Trek, one more variable being explored really shouldn't be that shocking.

That was Guinen, who is implied to have some memory or at least deja vu of the war timeline. The interesting thing is that she was affected by the change, too. In the war timeline, Yar at one point comments that Guinen was acting normally before encountering the Enterprise-C. The only way this is addressed is with the war timeline Data theorizing that the El-Aurians may have senses that other species do not.

Which means the change happened the moment of the Ent-C's incursion?

It doesn't, but when watching the movie, I feel like I'm being told: "The prime universe from ENT onwards has been erased and replaced with this." That was my assumption for a long time. It wasn't until after the fact that I heard that the filmmakers intended the two to coexist in the same multiverse.


Had they indicated in the movie itself that the old continuity survived, I may have been more forgiving, since it would feel a lot less like a replacement. (Yeah, I'm getting into subjectivity here, but I have a hard time getting past the suspicion that the parallel universe explanation was invented only to reassure us old school fans.)

I'm sorry you thought that. I never had that impression, and always took it as a "Parallels" or "Mirror Universe" alternate reality story.

Well, he was able to build a computer out of "stone knives and bear skins," so I suppose. I just question if he would have the technology and resources to carry out any plan. I mean, how would he stop the incursion in the first place.

Simple. He would scour Starfleet archives, determine the change and work to resolve it. I mean, that's what they did in "City on the Edge of Forever" when time changed around them and the Enterprise ceased to exist. Heck, Spock Prime could just go to the Guardian planet and hash it out with the Giant Stone Ring.

The idea that Spock has no resources makes zero sense to me.

There have been variations, but the idea that time travel affects the original timeline is such a common element that suddenly using a different model seems out of place to me. Kind of a "if this was possible, we would've seen it before" kind of thing, esp. since so many Star Trek time travel stories depend on no parallel universes to work.

By that argument, then we shouldn't have seen alternate universes, quantum realities or quatum copies but we have.

Also, "In a Mirror, Darkly," as I previously alluded, shows alternate reality travel and time travel via interphase distortion. Parallels (again) shows multiple branches off of choices.

I think red matter introduces that variable in a different way. Not good, not bad, just different.

You're welcome.

Okay, that's a very fair point. I guess I wish that the character was written closer to the TOS version in his soul searching. The "having him find a balance between his two backgrounds" arc was more interesting (IMHO), after the backstory of him trying to be only one, rather than using it as his first story arc. (And for what it's worth, I think all my problems are with the writing, because Zachary Quinto was a good casting choice; he looks and sounds a lot the TOS Spock, and his gives a good performance with what he's given.)

I think the loss of Vulcan sent him on a different path.

I think you doing a generally good job of explaining your position.

Hey, thanks.

Fair enough.

I actually didn't mind the phaser pistols in this movie that much.

I didn't mind it so much as I saw it as a missed opportunity. But, I love the entire Kelvin scene so it's a minor quibble.

 

[WebLurker]

I think Benedict would have been better as just John Harrison. But, for what we got, I have no problems with him as Khan, which is probably the difference.

Yeah, I wish Cumberbatch was cast as an original villain, too and I didn't care for the portrayal as Khan. However, I think all the problems were on the writing end, since I think Cumberbatch's performance in and of itself was good.

Also true, but the on screen circumstances also involve a variable that had not been seen before in Trek lore in the red matter. Which, as many different aspects of time travel and alternate dimensions have been introduced in Star Trek, one more variable being explored really shouldn't be that shocking.

I think the question here is if the red matter is enough to explain the time travel scenario we're presented with and I don't really think it is. First of all, red matter's only intended purpose is to create black holes (the time travel was an unexpected side effect of being sucked into it). Secondly, the weight of evidence still suggests that Star Trek time travel does not inherently create parallel universes. (The quantum realities could still form parallel universes as the different possible outcomes from the adventure unfold, but that is automatic and happened regardless of time travel or not).

Which means the change happened the moment of the Ent-C's incursion?

Pretty much. It's a lot like the '09 movie's incident, except that the portal leading to the time traveler's home time is open, allowing them to go home and it clearly changes the original timeline, not creating a new one.

I'm sorry you thought that. I never had that impression, and always took it as a "Parallels" or "Mirror Universe" alternate reality story.

Parallels and the Mirror Universe episodes were not time travel stories, since in all cases, the travelers were merely shifting dimensions. A little like rooms in a house. You can go from the kitchen to the living room, but the clock's time doesn't change and time passes at the same rate. Because of that, I didn't see a connection between the '09 movie and those episodes.

Simple. He would scour Starfleet archives, determine the change and work to resolve it. I mean, that's what they did in "City on the Edge of Forever" when time changed around them and the Enterprise ceased to exist. Heck, Spock Prime could just go to the Guardian planet and hash it out with the Giant Stone Ring.

The idea that Spock has no resources makes zero sense to me.

Forgot about the Guardian. Very good point.

However, I think the only way to fix things, once stuck in the alternate reality, to stop Nero, would be to go back to 2233 and somehow divert the Kelvin from the portal and get rid of the Narada somehow before it could do anything. Given that he'd only have access to records from the altered timeline (up to the 23rd century) and would probably be hunted as a criminal if the authorities figured out what he had in mind (a la "Timeless" [VGR]), I'm not sure what the odds of success would be.

By that argument, then we shouldn't have seen alternate universes, quantum realities or quatum copies but we have.

But those have nothing to do with time travel. My question is, does time travel form parallel universes, like the filmmakers wanted it to, and I think, based on the evidence from previous TV shows, the answer is no. Both because of the weight of evidence and the fact that this point is handled consistently throughout the franchise (not counting predestination paradox stories, which aren't a factor here).

Also, "In a Mirror, Darkly," as I previously alluded, shows alternate reality travel and time travel via interphase distortion. Parallels (again) shows multiple branches off of choices.

I think the Defiant scenario was more akin to a portal being opened across time and space, not a time travel scenario where going to your own past (of your home dimension) sends you to a branch off timeline that exists in a separate dimension. As I mentioned before, "Parallels" and its quantum realities have nothing to do with time travel. Worf did not time travel to find them, they would be still created if time travel had never been invented, etc.

I think red matter introduces that variable in a different way. Not good, not bad, just different.

Okay. As I stated before, I don't think its enough, but it is a better theory than others.

I think the loss of Vulcan sent him on a different path.

Oh, sure. I agree that was the intent. But, I still wish that they had written the character closer in line with the TV show. The reason I watch this stuff is because I like those characters from that show, and when they get changes too much for my liking, then I have no stake in it.

I didn't mind it so much as I saw it as a missed opportunity. But, I love the entire Kelvin scene so it's a minor quibble.

I liked that scene, too. It was my favorite from the movie.

 

[Jeyl]

It's certainly more awkward now that an entire universe of Star Trek is officially named after JJ Abrams' Grandpa.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, I wish Cumberbatch was cast as an original villain, too and I didn't care for the portrayal as Khan. However, I think all the problems were on the writing end, since I think Cumberbatch's performance in and of itself was good.

I didn't mind the writing at all. Some things could have clearer, but that's true of most films.

I think the question here is if the red matter is enough to explain the time travel scenario we're presented with and I don't really think it is. First of all, red matter's only intended purpose is to create black holes (the time travel was an unexpected side effect of being sucked into it). Secondly, the weight of evidence still suggests that Star Trek time travel does not inherently create parallel universes. (The quantum realities could still form parallel universes as the different possible outcomes from the adventure unfold, but that is automatic and happened regardless of time travel or not).

While I agree that it certainly was different than prior adventures, that still doesn't preclude the possibility, which is what I'm arguing for. To me, arguing that because something has never been done before doesn't mean it can't ever happen.

Red matter is an unknown. It creates artificial singularities, things that have been shown to cause disruptions in space-time before (TNG-Timescape, DS9-Visonary) and the gravitational effects could also be cited as having an impact upon moving between dimensions and time.

Pretty much. It's a lot like the '09 movie's incident, except that the portal leading to the time traveler's home time is open, allowing them to go home and it clearly changes the original timeline, not creating a new one.

Which is why, if Prime Spock was in the original time line, his lack of attempting to fix it is more egregious.

Parallels and the Mirror Universe episodes were not time travel stories, since in all cases, the travelers were merely shifting dimensions. A little like rooms in a house. You can go from the kitchen to the living room, but the clock's time doesn't change and time passes at the same rate. Because of that, I didn't see a connection between the '09 movie and those episodes.

Then you might want to have a chat with the writers since they cite "Parallels" as an inspiration.

Forgot about the Guardian. Very good point.

However, I think the only way to fix things, once stuck in the alternate reality, to stop Nero, would be to go back to 2233 and somehow divert the Kelvin from the portal and get rid of the Narada somehow before it could do anything. Given that he'd only have access to records from the altered timeline (up to the 23rd century) and would probably be hunted as a criminal if the authorities figured out what he had in mind (a la "Timeless" [VGR]), I'm not sure what the odds of success would be.

So, because the odds are not good, it's not worth trying? Since when has that stopped the heroes?

But those have nothing to do with time travel. My question is, does time travel form parallel universes, like the filmmakers wanted it to, and I think, based on the evidence from previous TV shows, the answer is no. Both because of the weight of evidence and the fact that this point is handled consistently throughout the franchise (not counting predestination paradox stories, which aren't a factor here).

Save for the method of action, which includes artificial singularities, alien devices, Iotian gateways, and slingshoting around the sun, among others.

Also, lots of tech in Star Trek works because of the speed of the plot. This is not unique to Abrams' Trek and shouldn't be a condemnation here.

I think the Defiant scenario was more akin to a portal being opened across time and space, not a time travel scenario where going to your own past (of your home dimension) sends you to a branch off timeline that exists in a separate dimension. As I mentioned before, "Parallels" and its quantum realities have nothing to do with time travel. Worf did not time travel to find them, they would be still created if time travel had never been invented, etc.

It's a portal in space and time, where it traveled in to the past of an alternate dimension.
Parallels simply means that new quantum realities can exist. It has nothing to do with time travel, but it does present us with the probability of a new quantum reality forming.
The only mechanism we don't know is how. Red Matter introduces that potential "how."

Okay. As I stated before, I don't think its enough, but it is a better theory than others.

The pieces are there for it to work. It's just never been done before.

Oh, sure. I agree that was the intent. But, I still wish that they had written the character closer in line with the TV show. The reason I watch this stuff is because I like those characters from that show, and when they get changes too much for my liking, then I have no stake in it.

I sympathize with that, but I can't share the sentiment. I have as much stake in nu-Spock as Prime Spock.

I liked that scene, too. It was my favorite from the movie.

Needs to be a whole series about the Kelvin.

It's certainly more awkward now that an entire universe of Star Trek is officially named after JJ Abrams' Grandpa.

Why?