Did JJ ruin Kirk?
- Thread starter RAMA
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He made 25-year old Kirk a womanizer. People grow up.
Precisely. It's a matter of maturity and nuKirk was not mature. The whole point of nuTrek is to show that maturing process, not the finished product.
I'm glad that other people get this. I thought I was alone in noticing that this was Kirk at the START of his career...not the seasoned Kirk we got in TOS.
You're not alone. I've pointed this out numerous times to people who complain about the new Kirk's choices vs old Kirk. Not to mention the entirely different upbringing.
You are definitely not alone. Also, the lack of a father figure for Kirk was also a theme that undercarries his entire arc, and is even showing up in Beyond. It's a fascinating influence that shows how important Kirk Sr. was to James Kirk's development as the man we saw in TOS.
Also, to quote a friend of mine, "becoming is more interesting than being." Contemporary film making is all about groups coming together and forming new beginnings, rather than just starting off with the group assembled (Avengers, Justice League, Enterprise crew, etc). We are getting a lot of depth to Kirk that TOS did not show.
I don't think they "ruined" Kirk necessarily because I think BEYOND has a chance to redeem it. I know what they were going for in the first two films with fratboy Kirk, but I don't really give a shit about that take because that's not the Kirk I want to watch. BEYOND, if the second trailer indicates, seem to have Kirk be more introspective and serious. I hope so, because I think Pine can really knock it out of the park when given the right material. I want to see Kirk back in his prime.
This is exactly where I'm at with it. I think Chris Pine totally has it in him. Hopefully the script gives him the chance to move beyond what you so perfectly called his "frat boy" days. I'm hopeful because I like the cast, but Justin Lin makes me nervous.
I agree to an extent, kirk was a ladies man, a young drunk kirk flirting with uhura in a bar is understandable but the three way thing in STID was too much for me.
What if that alien species has it as a requirement to have "relations" in pairs? "Come, come, Mr. [Dales]. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant."
I agree with this. I also think BEYOND has a chance to actually redeem PineKirk as well. And yes, I also think Pine can do pretty well with good material.
Indeed.What if that alien species has it as a requirement to have "relations" in pairs? "Come, come, Mr. [Dales]. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant."
Why does he need redeeming?
Good question. If talking about Pine, I think he's done a kick ass job of bringing a young fresh Kirk without copying Shatner, but at the same time he occasionally places these Kirkisms from TOS that just bring to my mind Shatners Kirk. It is the perfect balance. As for Kirk, he redeemed himself in STID. That was the whole point of that movie.
Good question. If talking about Pine, I think he's done a kick ass job of bringing a young fresh Kirk without copying Shatner, but at the same time he occasionally places these Kirkisms from TOS that just bring to my mind Shatners Kirk. It is the perfect balance. As for Kirk, he redeemed himself in STID. That was the whole point of that movie.
From what I've seen of Pine's Kirk, it's a parody of the pop culture cliche version of the character that bears little resemblance to the real deal (Pine has stated that his Kirk is partially inspired by Han Solo, so there is proof that they're not trying to have him play Kirk, but a different character of the same name).
STID had Kirk redeem himself after making a worse mess that he managed to extract himself out of (but still resulted in countless deaths that he could've averted). He gets rewarded for breaking the rules, putting himself above the law, etc. The guy's a loose cannon and shows no sign of changing. The only reasons he was still in the fleet was because of Pike's influence and Marcus's wanting to use him.
On top of that, even if we grant him all that, we've had the same learning maturity story twice. At best, it's getting old, at worse, it proves that he's not going to change and that Starfleet made a mistake not expelling him after his first screwup.
Hadn't heard that one. Link?
Kirk's complex. He's Han Solo, James Bond and Horatio Hornblower rolled into one.
What are you referring to here? He was used by Marcus, but managed to see through Marcus' manipulations and do the right thing.
I supposed if he killed Khan some deaths might have been averted. OTOH, the Federation would be at war with the Klingons, resulting in a higher death toll.
Kirk never showed any repentance for his lying about the Nibiru incident. Freeing Khan from the brig was a major mistake. Khan didn't have anything useful enough to contribute to make it worth the risk and if they had left him in the brig, they would've been able to stop Marcus's plot without any more losses of life. The latter alone would be enough to get him court-martialed and shipped off to New Zeland. (Remember of prime universe Kirk got court-martialed and at risk of losing his command over one accidental death that was far less reckless in "Court Martial" [TOS]? Why should alternate reality Kirk be given special treatment, esp. when he doesn't have that Kirk's reputation as a good captain?)
I used to think so before I realized what they were doing with the character. You have to look deeper than surface level and ask the question why is Kirk this way now. It didn't help that they cut the scene with abusive stepdad in 09. And to me 09 and ID were not rehashes, they each were a progression of his character. To me 09 was his progression from genius level repeat offender to Star Fleet cadet to his discovering he did have what it took to be a Captain. Yes he got rewarded for breaking rules, so did the TOS Kirk, except with Nu-Kirk they come back and show you why that is a bad idea in ID. Then ID is about Kirk learning to be a Captain with all the responsibilities that holds. It knocked him off his high horse and taught him humility.
You know TOS Kirk cheated on the Kobiashi Maru (sp) test as well and he got a commendation for original thinking. I doubt they would throw him out after that, if that is the first screw up you are speaking of. They did make him a Captain too early, and that is what ID is about.
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