Did JJ ruin Kirk?

[Pauln6]

True Spock's plan to follow Pike's last order was dreadful but you can't give Kirk major credit for saving Earth. His plan was equally terrible. But of course I'm judging the characters based in the assumption that future humans are smart. If federation humans are dumber than us or at least very different in outlook then the events of the movie make more sense. Stupid humans might indeed hold up Kirk as a paragon, akin to Luke Wilson in Idiocracy or Sylvester Stallone in Demolition Man. Pike tells Kirk as much. It may look dumb to us but not to the federation brass.

 

[CorporalClegg]

#No.

 

[JKM]

I'm not sure how Kirk's plan was terrible when it was the only plan that had even a slight chance of saving earth. They knew that is where Nero was headed and after kidnapping Pike and destroying Vulcan they knew he wasn't visiting Earth for afternoon tea. Kirk's choice was not to quit but to go down trying. Which was why Pike recruited him in the first place. TOS Kirk would also take chances, educated guesses or a gut feeling, take your pick but in my opinion that is what made him such a great Captain. Nu-Kirk is the same way, he just needed to temper his recklessness which he learned in ID.

 

[Pauln6]

It's terrible for so many reasons. Warning Earth and other federation planets has a slight chance of saving Earth. Anybody can hide and beam onto Nero's ship from a shuttle or form a plan to destroy the drill. Maybe some of those Section 31 agents in that secret base? Pike knows the defence codes. Not warning Earth decreases Nero's chances of not getting there or being slowed down. Kirk's ship can only go at warp 3. Nero's ship has travelled from Qu'onos to Vulcan in a day so it can travel much faster. Enterprise will arrive several days late unless Nero pootles there at less than warp 3 but that's REALLY slow so why would he?

Now I realise that the movie required our heroes to save the day but the writers are in control of events and can ensure that with less silly convolution. Only ship in the quadrant nonsense is equally silly!

 

[JKM]

It's terrible for so many reasons. Warning Earth and other federation planets has a slight chance of saving Earth. Anybody can hide and beam onto Nero's ship from a shuttle or form a plan to destroy the drill. Maybe some of those Section 31 agents in that secret base? Pike knows the defence codes. Not warning Earth decreases Nero's chances of not getting there or being slowed down. Kirk's ship can only go at warp 3. Nero's ship has travelled from Qu'onos to Vulcan in a day so it can travel much faster. Enterprise will arrive several days late unless Nero pootles there at less than warp 3 but that's REALLY slow so why would he?

Now I realise that the movie required our heroes to save the day but the writers are in control of events and can ensure that with less silly convolution. Only ship in the quadrant nonsense is equally silly!

Anyone else would have failed unless they also hid behind Saturn which would mean they couldn't be anywhere near Earth to start with. Otherwise Nero would have seen them coming, raised his shields and blasted the hell out of them with his superior weapons system. Nero would also be watching the communications Earth was getting, i.e. when he was at Vulcan 'Captain Nero, seven Federation Ships are on their way.' The whole point of hiding the Enterprise behind Saturn's moon Titan was to hide their presence so Nero wouldn't be alerted they were anywhere near, otherwise game over.

And even if it isn't stated, I'm sure they sent some kind of communication to the ships in the Laurentian system but they were too far away to help. Also it is an assumption you are making about Nero's ship making the trip in a day. Unlikely, for several reasons. One, Uhura heard the report the night before Kirk takes the test. Two, as far as I remember, there is no stated time length between the test and when he gets pulled up in front of the board for cheating. That was probably a few days after the test because Spock had to figure out how he did it first before accusing him. I doubt all of that happened in a 24 hour period. Finally who is to say they didn't warn other Federation planets? Just because it wasn't on film doesn't mean it wasn't done. If they put in every single detail movies would be hours long. Also I doubt they would have warned Earth because as stated above then Nero would know they were possibly coming to help.

Edit: They were the only ship left because Nero blasted the other seven in the quadrant.

 

[fireproof78]

Unfortunately, the way the film presents it is that Uhura heard the distress signal, Kirk took the test, and the hearing was convened within the same day, since Chekov reports that at 2200 hours the anomaly was detected.

It is one of my main criticisms of the film is the fact that it insists on such a quick pace for the events.

But, that doesn't change my agreement on the fact that Earth would have had little warning or time to prepare if the Enterprise didn't move to intercept Nero.

 

[Pauln6]

Some of that tracks, some doesn't. If Nero, a romulan miner could monitor Starfleet comms, why couldn't S31 in STID?

If Starfleet knows Nero is coming they can plan to be in the right place at the right time. Nero isn't cloaked.

And they had more time than you think when you account for the time it takes Kirk to get to the base including his campfire interlude. What's odd is why Scott didn't pick up the pod's distress signal. He had no idea who Kirk was. If Kirk had waited as instructions Earth would be destroyed. It's why I don't rate Scotty as an officer much. He's not very professional or observant.

Kirk's plan isn't very clever as it relies on Nero dropping his shields before activating the drill and having very lax internal security. It pays off because Kirk but it's not very well thought out especially as Spock volunteers last minute. It's an even worse plan before that!

It's expressly stated that the fleet is off comms but other ships capable of more than warp 3 could have got to them much faster than enterprise so yeah Spock is also being dense. What we needed was a brainstorming session with senior officers in the ready room!

My jab about being the only ship in the quadrant was aimed at prior trek. Nutrek is the first movie where that is actually plausible.!

 

[JKM]

Unfortunately, the way the film presents it is that Uhura heard the distress signal, Kirk took the test, and the hearing was convened within the same day, since Chekov reports that at 2200 hours the anomaly was detected.

It is one of my main criticisms of the film is the fact that it insists on such a quick pace for the events.

But, that doesn't change my agreement on the fact that Earth would have had little warning or time to prepare if the Enterprise didn't move to intercept Nero.

It was my understanding the anomaly was about Vulcan, Chekov isn't speaking of what Uhura knew because they didn't know that at that point. Hence the whole mad rush to the bridge to alert Pike.

Edit: Never mind, your right, it is a day, I just watched the report to Pike scene. Yeah that was unnecessarily rushed. This may show my lack of knowledge of Trek lore but how far is the neutral zone/anomaly from Klingon space?

 

[JKM]

Some of that tracks, some doesn't. If Nero, a romulan miner could monitor Starfleet comms, why couldn't S31 in STID?

If Starfleet knows Nero is coming they can plan to be in the right place at the right time. Nero isn't cloaked.

And they had more time than you think when you account for the time it takes Kirk to get to the base including his campfire interlude. What's odd is why Scott didn't pick up the pod's distress signal. He had no idea who Kirk was. If Kirk had waited as instructions Earth would be destroyed. It's why I don't rate Scotty as an officer much. He's not very professional or observant.

Kirk's plan isn't very clever as it relies on Nero dropping his shields before activating the drill and having very lax internal security. It pays off because Kirk but it's not very well thought out especially as Spock volunteers last minute. It's an even worse plan before that!

It's expressly stated that the fleet is off comms but other ships capable of more than warp 3 could have got to them much faster than enterprise so yeah Spock is also being dense. What we needed was a brainstorming session with senior officers in the ready room!

My jab about being the only ship in the quadrant was aimed at prior trek. Nutrek is the first movie where that is actually plausible.!

Sorry for the double post, but this popped in while I was writing my other answer. In answer to first question, it's possibly because Nero is from the future where all the Starfleet codes from Nu-Kirk's time would be considered ancient and easily crackable. Our tech is obsolete after five years, imagine if over a hundred.

Starfleet could know they're coming but they don't have spaceships left to move in place. Even if Enterprise did get them a message. That's assuming the Enterprise Comms weren't damaged in any way at Vulcan and then later fixed before arrival. A shuttle doesn't have beaming capabilities. At least none of them I have seen in TOS ever have.

Nero may not have had shields. Don't forget it was originally a mining vessel. They could have picked that info up during their first meeting with him. Or he may need to drop shields to run the drill. That would make more sense.

 

[BillJ]

It's expressly stated that the fleet is off comms but other ships capable of more than warp 3 could have got to them much faster than enterprise so yeah Spock is also being dense. What we needed was a brainstorming session with senior officers in the ready room!

Communications were down. So the Enterprise had to go all the way to the Laurentian system. They follow Spock's plan to meet up with the fleet and Earth is toast.

No matter how good or bad one thinks Kirk's idea is, it is the only shot to save Earth.

 

[Pauln6]

Sorry for the double post, but this popped in while I was writing my other answer. In answer to first question, it's possibly because Nero is from the future where all the Starfleet codes from Nu-Kirk's time would be considered ancient and easily crackable. Our tech is obsolete after five years, imagine if over a hundred.

Starfleet could know they're coming but they don't have spaceships left to move in place. Even if Enterprise did get them a message. That's assuming the Enterprise Comms weren't damaged in any way at Vulcan and then later fixed before arrival. A shuttle doesn't have beaming capabilities. At least none of them I have seen in TOS ever have.

Nero may not have had shields. Don't forget it was originally a mining vessel. They could have picked that info up during their first meeting with him. Or he may need to drop shields to run the drill. That would make more sense.

Plausible but the feds don't know he's from the far future plus it's silly to suggest S31 can't cracking their own codes on standard communicators.

If Nero hadn't shields then transwarp beaming a shed load of security onto his ship would probably have been better.

He's from the future but they assume that his sensors won't detect them transporting aboard just like their own sensors did in the previous scene.

I think I might have credited them with a bit more nouse if they had transported two teams - one as a distraction and one to sneak in and take out the internal security systems. Then their plan looks a bit smarter. I would have liked to McCoy (to treat Pike) , Uhura (to speak fluent romulan), and a security team (as the distraction). I understand why they went for the cheesy TOS buddy system but it took some of the fun out of the final scenes.

 

[BillJ]

He's from the future but they assume that his sensors won't detect them transporting aboard just like their own sensors did in the previous scene.

They don't assume his sensors won't detect them. They just hope to have time to materialize in an unoccupied part of the ship.

 

[Pauln6]

Communications were down. So the Enterprise had to go all the way to the Laurentian system. They follow Spock's plan to meet up with the fleet and Earth is toast.

No matter how good or bad one thinks Kirk's idea is, it is the only shot to save Earth.

It makes a bit more sense if ships comms are down but not much. Why not use Scotty's comms? Or fly to nearby Andor to use theirs? In STID Kirk talks to Scotty on earth from klingon space using only a hand communicator.

 

[Pauln6]

They don't assume his sensors won't detect them. They just hope to have time to materialize in an unoccupied part of the ship.

But that makes little sense either since in Nero's time site to site transport is trivial and Kirk uses the same tactic in TOS. That's why I say sending in a team to a different location first would have been a cool and clever distraction.

 

[JKM]

Plausible but the feds don't know he's from the far future plus it's silly to suggest S31 can't cracking their own codes on standard communicators.

If Nero hadn't shields then transwarp beaming a shed load of security onto his ship would probably have been better.

He's from the future but they assume that his sensors won't detect them transporting aboard just like their own sensors did in the previous scene.

I think I might have credited them with a bit more nouse if they had transported two teams - one as a distraction and one to sneak in and take out the internal security systems. Then their plan looks a bit smarter. I would have liked to McCoy (to treat Pike) , Uhura (to speak fluent romulan), and a security team (as the distraction). I understand why they went for the cheesy TOS buddy system but it took some of the fun out of the final scenes.

I'm not debating ID here, just ST09 so honestly I'm not sure what S31 has to do with that. I was just speaking of why it would be easy for Nero to break Comms. Of course I doubt it was encrypted at the time anyway because at that point Star Fleet thought it was a natural disaster of some sort. They probably just signaled Vulcan they had ships on the way.

The Enterprise sensors did not pick up Scotty and Kirk beaming on board. It picked up the unauthorized opening of the water turbine. In other words, Kirk hacked it to keep Scotty from drowning.

Yes it would have been more realistic maybe to send two teams, but this is just a movie. It's all about what makes a good story. I know from experience if you start picking apart movies based on realism you'll never enjoy the story told.

 

[BillJ]

In STID Kirk talks to Scotty on earth from klingon space using only a hand communicator.

I imagine both the Enterprise and Earth communication satellites made that link up possible. And, no, I don't need to be told that's what was happening.

But that makes little sense either since in Nero's time site to site transport is trivial and Kirk uses the same tactic in TOS. That's why I say sending in a team to a different location first would have been a cool and clever distraction.

It really wasn't suppose to be cool or clever, it was a frontal assault on Nero's ship.

 

[BillJ]

I know from experience if you start picking apart movies based on realism you'll never enjoy the story told.

Winner! And the above is doubly true where Star Trek is involved!

 

[Amaris]

Unfortunately, the way the film presents it is that Uhura heard the distress signal, Kirk took the test, and the hearing was convened within the same day, since Chekov reports that at 2200 hours the anomaly was detected.

It is one of my main criticisms of the film is the fact that it insists on such a quick pace for the events.

But, that doesn't change my agreement on the fact that Earth would have had little warning or time to prepare if the Enterprise didn't move to intercept Nero.

Yeah, that's a criticism I can fully understand. A few quick title bars like "3 Days Later" or "Six Months Later" or something to let us know the passage of time in more explicit detail would have helped in some places.

 

[Pauln6]

I'm not debating ID here, just ST09 so honestly I'm not sure what S31 has to do with that. I was just speaking of why it would be easy for Nero to break Comms. Of course I doubt it was encrypted at the time anyway because at that point Star Fleet thought it was a natural disaster of some sort. They probably just signaled Vulcan they had ships on the way. The Enterprise sensors did not pick up Scotty and Kirk beaming on board. It picked up the unauthorized opening of the water turbine. In other words, Kirk hacked it to keep Scotty from drowning. Yes it would have been more realistic maybe to send two teams, but this is just a movie. It's all about what makes a good story. I know from experience if you start picking apart movies based on realism you'll never enjoy the story told.

Ha ha. Yeah I tend to enjoy the movie first watch unless it's terrible. Only the Khaaaaan scene in stid and the entire concept of federation transwarp beaming have done this to me. Most of it is good fun even if you roll your eyes at its silliness and the outrageous absence of Yeoman Rand. ;-p

 

[JKM]

Maybe she'll show up in Beyond