It's the thought that counts.
Did JJ ruin Kirk?
- Thread starter RAMA
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Amaris
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Amen. I bet Star Treks III - VI would have been far better if Spock had been alive.
The comparison to Troi's bungled command test is spot on for me. But there is disconnect between what makes sense and what the movie going masses love. I think kirk's character arc is great. And if Alice eve had been in this one, they would have started to undermine his shallowness no doubt. What annoys me is that he receives so much kudos for his half-assed plans that he pulls off in spite of his stupidity because his enemies are that bit dumber.
Of course Scott should have fixed the ship. It was a terrible command decision. Why? Because the masses don't think delegation is heroic. Sigh. But there was so much silly stuff before that too. The spiderman franchise is likely getting rebooted after two movies because too many people only went to see the last one once. The assumption is that, despite it being an iconic part of the character's history, the masses wanted to see the flawed hero succeed. Parents don't want to depress their children.
Of course Scott should have fixed the ship. It was a terrible command decision. Why? Because the masses don't think delegation is heroic. Sigh. But there was so much silly stuff before that too. The spiderman franchise is likely getting rebooted after two movies because too many people only went to see the last one once. The assumption is that, despite it being an iconic part of the character's history, the masses wanted to see the flawed hero succeed. Parents don't want to depress their children.
Depends on the person. The fact is, Kirk made the decision with no expectation of surviving. The lesson of the sacrifice was learned.
Honestly, I have no problem with him coming back. That's as Star Trek as transporters and phasers.
When Spock sacrificed himself in TWOK, Khan had already been neutralized. The greater danger to the Federation was over and only the Enterprise and its crew needed saving.
My point is really that in ST:ID when Kirk sacrificed himself, the Enterprise, San Francisco/Starfleet Academy and the Federation was still in danger from the Vengence and Khan. As captain of the only starship who knew what was happening, it was a foolish decision to sacrifice himself at that point. Taking the Captain out of the picture at that point may have saved the Enterprise, bravo. However, he also completely ignored the Khan's continuing threat to the Federation and left Spock to handle it all alone. To me, that's very irresponsible.
My point is really that in ST:ID when Kirk sacrificed himself, the Enterprise, San Francisco/Starfleet Academy and the Federation was still in danger from the Vengence and Khan. As captain of the only starship who knew what was happening, it was a foolish decision to sacrifice himself at that point. Taking the Captain out of the picture at that point may have saved the Enterprise, bravo. However, he also completely ignored the Khan's continuing threat to the Federation and left Spock to handle it all alone. To me, that's very irresponsible.
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Amaris
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He trusts his officers to do their best. Sounds like what a good captain does to me.
But, he wasn't the only one who knew what was going on, so that nullifies that. He also wasn't about to order someone to their death for his mistake.
Also, if the ship crashes, Khan survives, and nobody knows then that's an even bigger problem.
He trusts his officers to do their best. Sounds like what a good captain does to me.
But he didn't trust Scotty to fix the ship. The decision in that scene was done for the audience. Kirk isn't an engineer so it was quite likely that he would lack the skills, manpower, and equipment to fix the engines. I mean seriously, he KICKED the ship better. A lot of options were not considered for the sake of setting up an ill-judged homage to TWoK IMO.
"The ship's out of danger Captain, Chekov and the engineering crew re-routed emergency power to the impulse engines in time to steer the ship. What were ye thinking laddie? We're in the Earth's atmosphere. Why would we need the warp engines online to steer? Leave fixing warp engines to the professionals. Oh... I guess I probably should have sugar-coated that a bit more considerin' it's the last thing you'll ever hear."
"KHAAAAAAAAAN!!!"
How often does a secondary character save the day in an action film while the lead sits on his hands? Lead characters usually get the "fun stuff". Even in TOS, there were times when they had Spock save the day by doing something Scotty should done or come with.
It was described as being out of alignment in the film. I can't believe the captain of the ship wouldn't understand what that meant and how to correct it. Captain Spock didn't trust his engineers to get the mains back online in TWOK, yet they were far better equipped to handle the scenario.
I think that's true but I also think that it is the responsibility of the writers to ensure that the heroes' actions make sense. If you want him/her to save the day engineer the plot to make that happen. A good example might be Alien, while a bad example might be in 2012, where [spoilers] the ship's engines are bunged up or something. So, on a ship that has who knows how many dozens of engineers at the site of the problem, our hero, a layman, runs all the way from the bridge to the engine room to save the day. It's insulting story-telling.
In fact Spock did trust his engineers but he understood their limitations. Firstly, most of those engineers were inexperienced trainees. Secondly, the chief engineer had just collapsed. Thirdly, the radiation levels meant that the humans would not survive long enough to complete the necessary work. The story was engineered so that Spock's sacrifice was logical. That's good story-telling.
You had a ton of people that are in radiation gear in engineering. How is it good storytelling that you only had one qualified person assigned to the ship?
Lol - no, Scotty knows how to improvise in both universes and, in fact, this version is even worse at risk-taking and rule-breaking that Scott-Prime!
Writers are an irresponsible lot. The needs of the lead out weigh the needs of making sense.
Alien? Trying to remember what Ripley's job was.
Kirk also wasn't willing to risk anyone else's life for his mistake. Kirk was determined to make it right.
Also, if we want to talk about realistic and such, it makes 0 sense for the senior most officer to also go on the most dangerous of missions.
Also, if we want to talk about realistic and such, it makes 0 sense for the senior most officer to also go on the most dangerous of missions.
Lol - yeah - anybody trying to claim that TOS was always sensible is onto a loser. The pointlessness of radiation suits that were never even used in TOS is definitely an oddity.
TWoK is never clear on how many qualified crew they have on board or how many of them are fit for duty after the first and second attacks. I think the suggestion is more that they are all human and the radiation would affect them, no matter how good, before repairs could be effected.
Ripley was second officer I think. She also survived because the Captain (the lead) did a Kirk early on in the movie and came a cropper.
TWoK is never clear on how many qualified crew they have on board or how many of them are fit for duty after the first and second attacks. I think the suggestion is more that they are all human and the radiation would affect them, no matter how good, before repairs could be effected.
Ripley was second officer I think. She also survived because the Captain (the lead) did a Kirk early on in the movie and came a cropper.
Which Alien Isolation was nice enough to remind you was a plan screwed from the beginning as Ash was the one in charge of spacing the Alien if they got it into the airlock.
For me, one of the appealing aspects of the TOS characters was that they were always front and center. Kirk and Spock didn't pass the danger onto lesser subordinates.
One of the big things I've used as a parent over the years, I'm not going to ask my kids to do anything I'm not willing to do myself.
One of the big things I've used as a parent over the years, I'm not going to ask my kids to do anything I'm not willing to do myself.
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