Deep Space 9 Defenses

[Tomalak]

The Phaser bank shouldn't have had the swirly effect. It didn't fire a Phaser beam. It fired something else (some sort of pulse).

I recall in the dialogue, O'Brien manages to push some power through the phaser bank, effectively creating a phaser blast. Presumably he burnt out the phaser bank doing so, as he could only get one, though later said he might be able to get another. Obviously it was to all intents and purposes a phaser blast, as Jassad was supposed to think the station was armed. It looked like a phaser, sounded like a phaser, and the Cardassians read it as a phaser, so it was indeed a phaser.

Half of Starfleet probably hoped that Bajor would fall back in Cardassian hands, so that this useless backwater surrounded by hostiles would not cause further problems for the UFP.

More like the Bajoran provisional government would have fallen, and the new power-brokers would share Kira's views and send Starfleet on their way.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I recall in the dialogue, O'Brien manages to push some power through the phaser bank, effectively creating a phaser blast. Presumably he burnt out the phaser bank doing so, as he could only get one, though later said he might be able to get another. Obviously it was to all intents and purposes a phaser blast, as Jassad was supposed to think the station was armed. It looked like a phaser, sounded like a phaser, and the Cardassians read it as a phaser, so it was indeed a phaser.

When I was bored as a kid, I would cut up pieces of eraser and shoot them out of my bb gun. Essentially O'Brien did the same thing: pushed energy through a special type of energy emitter in a way that neither was intended.

 

[Tomalak]

When I was bored as a kid, I would cut up pieces of eraser and shoot them out of my bb gun. Essentially O'Brien did the same thing: pushed energy through a special type of energy emitter in a way that neither was intended.

Good analogy!

 

[PhaserLightShow]

Why has this gotten to 5 pages. I was hoping for only 1 or 2 or 3.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

When I was bored as a kid, I would cut up pieces of eraser and shoot them out of my bb gun. Essentially O'Brien did the same thing: pushed energy through a special type of energy emitter in a way that neither was intended.

He should have fired a normal beam. Why couldn't he?

@PhaserLightShow
(I live in a land of "phantasy")

 

[Timo]

The swirly and sickly-green blast came from exactly where the weapons sails have their phaser emitters. Its creation involved the following dialogue:

I could run a pulse compression wave through the phaser banks. Put out a blast that'll make them think twice.

So the shot did come from a phaser bank. Or several; the jury is still out on whether "bank" and "emitter" are the same thing, and whether there are multiple banks per beam (much as some TOS dialogue would already suggest). Not a case of perverting a navigational deflector or a communications array, but of just abusing an existing weapon.

The DS9 Tech Manual in turn (ab)uses the visuals, introducing a weapon called "spiral-wave disruptor" for the Cardassians; it's pretty descriptive of all the beams seen in "Emissary", both from the station and the Galors.

VOY of course gives us "compression phasers", also described in the DS9 Tech Manual; their relationship to O'Brien's trick is unknown, but the terminology is suggestive...

As for why O'Brien did what he did, the latter part of his dialogue suggests he wanted to create something scary-looking (i.e. more powerful or at least more powerful-looking than anticipated) in place of a standard beam. But it's not explicit; perhaps forcing a pulse compression wave through the system was the only way to make the sabotaged phaser fire at all, creating the illusion of a destructive beam and making the Cardassians think their sabotage had failed. Akin to soldiers today finding a cannon with its breech completely jammed by the retreating enemy, but cleverly pushing some C4 in through the barrel, pouring gasoline on it, and detonating all that to create the illusion of a shot (while probably ruining the gun even further).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[PhaserLightShow]

The swirly and sickly-green blast came from exactly where the weapons sails have their phaser emitters. Its creation involved the following dialogue:



So the shot did come from a phaser bank. Or several; the jury is still out on whether "bank" and "emitter" are the same thing, and whether there are multiple banks per beam (much as some TOS dialogue would already suggest). Not a case of perverting a navigational deflector or a communications array, but of just abusing an existing weapon.

The DS9 Tech Manual in turn (ab)uses the visuals, introducing a weapon called "spiral-wave disruptor" for the Cardassians; it's pretty descriptive of all the beams seen in "Emissary", both from the station and the Galors.

VOY of course gives us "compression phasers", also described in the DS9 Tech Manual; their relationship to O'Brien's trick is unknown, but the terminology is suggestive...

Timo Saloniemi

An phaser bank is two emitters (in "The Doomsday Machine", it is one).

@PhaserLightShow
(Posted on Stardate 2016.330, at 3:53 PM)

 

[Timo]

Or then it's something else altogether, as Kirk in TOS frequently calls for "phaser banks" or even "all phaser banks" yet just two beams emerge. That is, sometimes there must be several banks per beam, rather than vice versa.

For all we know, a phaser bank is a bank because it's like the place where one puts one's money: it's a capacitor that accumulates destructive power until it gets released through one of those unnamed and never-described things that let out the actual death rays.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

He should have fired a normal beam. Why couldn't he?

@PhaserLightShow
(I live in a land of "phantasy")

The necessary wave-power converters could not be replicated.

(Yes, I will make up shit from now on.)

 

[PhaserLightShow]

The necessary wave-power converters could not be replicated.

(Yes, I will make up s**t from now on.)

Unless, you have proof for that, will you tell me something not made up? Something real, please (within the context of Star Trek, of course).

@PhaserLightShow

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Unless, you have proof for that, will you tell me something not made up? Something real, please (within the context of Star Trek, of course).

@PhaserLightShow

Yes, Cardassian technology is difficult to replicate. See "Empok Nor" and "Pale Moonlight."

 

[Tomalak]

Unless, you have proof for that, will you tell me something not made up? Something real, please (within the context of Star Trek, of course).

@PhaserLightShow

I think it's been established that there isn't enough to go on from the episodes. There's been plenty of good discussion, but you don't seem very happy with any of it! Have you got any thoughts yourself?

 

[PhaserLightShow]

I think it's been established that there isn't enough to go on from the episodes. There's been plenty of good discussion, but you don't seem very happy with any of it! Have you got any thoughts yourself?

Now I do. Because of this discussion. To summarize the parts I agree with...
The Cardassians beat the crap out of Deep Space 9 (even though DS9 supposedly has 5000 Photon Torpedoes, and integrated Phaser banks on every level) because Starfleet was smart enough to load in some rudimentary defenses but those defenses were few and/or malfunctioning. Half shields, drained phasers, 6 photons were the best Starfleet would dedicate to the effort they didn't really care about.

I am happy with the good discussion. Except for the parts I disagreed with (which I indicated).

@PhaserLightShow

 

[Bad Thoughts]

... the best Starfleet would dedicate to the effort they didn't really care about....@PhaserLightShow

I think this might be the most relevant thing that you've written: it shows the agenda that is at the root of your question.

 

[MacLeod]

Now I do. Because of this discussion. To summarize the parts I agree with...
The Cardassians beat the crap out of Deep Space 9 (even though DS9 supposedly has 5000 Photon Torpedoes, and integrated Phaser banks on every level) because Starfleet was smart enough to load in some rudimentary defenses but those defenses were few and/or malfunctioning. Half shields, drained phasers, 6 photons were the best Starfleet would dedicate to the effort they didn't really care about.

I am happy with the good discussion. Except for the parts I disagreed with (which I indicated).

@PhaserLightShow

But it had only been a matter of a fortnight or so since the Cardassians had trashed the station, when exactly was Starfleet supposed to have repaired weapons, esp as they was no percieved immediate threat at the time the Federation took over administration of the station. I think they had bigger concerns i.e planetary relief efforts for Bajor.

 

[Timo]

A related issue is whether the station even in its Cardassian heyday would have been combat-capable. There are those six weapon sails, yes, but how much weaponry did they originally have? Torpedo launchers aren't part of the known Cardassian arsenal, so perhaps each sail only had that one death ray originally? And from TNG we know that Cardassian death rays are more like headache rays.

Building something out of nothing ought to take time, and lots of all-new resources, even if O'Brien could reroute massive excess power from now-defunct ore processing systems or whatnot...

Terok Nor seems to have served in at least a dual role originally: as a refinery and port for Bajoran exports, nicely protected from sabotage by orbital height, and as a base of intimidation operations. Yet neither role would call for much in the way of armaments. Bajor during the Occupation sat right next door to Cardassia and was unlikely to be invaded by outside forces, and Bajoran resistance probably only operated those tiny fightercraft of "The Siege" fame, easily stopped by shields and headache rays. And the intimidation would only require one working headache ray, given the inability of the Bajorans to retaliate much.

We do know that space stations and other fixed fortifications in Trek can be decisively powerful and easily repel whole fleets of starships, of course. Cardassians probably did have tech like that during the old war and the Occupation, too, or else they would have been complete pushovers. But a single space station, no matter how invincible, can't defend anything except itself (and perhaps some tiny point target half a mile to the side). If Cardassia fortified Bajor, it probably didn't involve Terok Nor in that scheme - and the fortifications (say, a thousand headache ray satellites) would have been a priority in the overnight scuttling project, and therefore no doubt totally gone by the morning, with Terok Nor getting but a love pat on its replicators and whatnot.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Indeed, the main threat to Terok Nor was terrorism from within, not attack from space. They'd probably have those three (or six?) phasers/headache rays just for redundancy, but we never see Cardassian ships using photon torpedoes. Or do we?

 

[Timo]

Depends. In "Ensign Ro", the purple beams of the Galors are rather short bolts, instead of the long rays we saw in "The Wounded" - but they do emerge from the traditional spot in the middle of the deflector array, and dialogue stays mum on their exact nature. In "Tribunal", the Cardassian patrol ship threateningly achieves a "photon lock" with the runabout of the O'Briens, according to the computer of the craft, but this need not refer to the use of photon torpedoes at all. And that's about it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

We do know that space stations and other fixed fortifications in Trek can be decisively powerful and easily repel whole fleets of starships, of course. Cardassians probably did have tech like that during the old war and the Occupation, too, or else they would have been complete pushovers. But a single space station, no matter how invincible, can't defend anything except itself (and perhaps some tiny point target half a mile to the side). If Cardassia fortified Bajor, it probably didn't involve Terok Nor in that scheme - and the fortifications (say, a thousand headache ray satellites) would have been a priority in the overnight scuttling project, and therefore no doubt totally gone by the morning, with Terok Nor getting but a love pat on its replicators and whatnot.

Timo Saloniemi

A platform that can target anything tens of thousands of miles in its range can do more than just protect itself. No, it would not on its own stop an invasion, but in coordination with other such platforms and ships it would present a strong defense of the planet it circled. Positioned correctly, it could coordinate with ground forces to eliminate invading or rebelling armies. I doubt that the Central Command would have considered Bajor threatened by outside powers. However, its weapons may have been better attuned to bombarding the planet, making if difficult for Bajoran resistance groups to gather en masse.

 

[Timo]

...One wonders how the resistance could survive at all, given that Cardassian sensors are never indicated to be grossly inferior to everybody else's. Perhaps the very minerals that lured Cardassia to the planet in the first place were the salvation of the bush fighters, helping hide the small groups and their light weapons? Or perhaps Cardassians loved having the resistance around, as it posed no threat to their operations but provided a splendid excuse for the occasional atrocity?

"Hmm, there's a group of sixteen at Upper Millipok, right next to where Glinn Asek has his condo. Small arms, and seems that they have Shakaar, Lokon, Kira and that old fool Nilaar there (a bit under the weather, him). How about we let them past Asek's perimeter fence this time? Serves him right, not paying his Dabo debts in time."

One also wonders whether Terok Nor was "positioned". Its original orbit didn't look geostationary; was it circling the planet so that it overflew most of its surface, or was it hovering? (If the latter, I'd trust it would be in the process of falling in "Emissary", what with just four thrusters working - or was the hovering system separate from the thrusters?)

Timo Saloniemi