Yes, good points.
The process of earning command of a starship in ST09 seemed more like getting your own fighter jet in Top Gun.
Kor
For people who don't like the reboots
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Yes, good points.
The process of earning command of a starship in ST09 seemed more like getting your own fighter jet in Top Gun.
Kor
Given that the ranking system is based on the navy I don't think it would be unheard of for newly qualified crew to achieve the rank of lieutenant. I think trained doctors might start at that rank which explains why many science personnel we see are also that rank. But the issue is not just one of rank, it's one of having maturity, wisdom, and proportionality. Kirk is better suited to Riker's role at this stage in his development. He needs someone with a higher rank to reign him in or he does dumb stuff like single-handedly kicking the ship better.
The Top Gun analogy is good. Kirk makes a great action hero but does he have the admin skills, the patience, and the diplomacy skills? It's one thing to risk your own life but another to risk your crewmen that are actually qualified to do the job.
The Top Gun analogy is good. Kirk makes a great action hero but does he have the admin skills, the patience, and the diplomacy skills? It's one thing to risk your own life but another to risk your crewmen that are actually qualified to do the job.
I think the mistake was raising Kirk to the rank of captain. The writers didn't seem to understand that it's possible to be a captain without holding the rank of captain. He should have been a commander at the end of the film. Spock an Lt.C (like he was in the show) Scotty, Bones, and Sulu Lts. Uhura a JG, and Chekov an ensign.
They could have even gone a bit further and made Kirk an LtC and adjusted everyone else accordingly. While I don't think it's common for LtCs. to be captain now (At least in the US. I don't know about Brits/Canada/France/etc.), it wasn't that unheard of even as late at Vietnam. And seeing as how Starfleet just saw a massive loss in personnel, it wouldn't have been that big of a stretch at all to have a guy who was one of the top command graduates in the history of SFA and had just literally saved humanity to be promoted to Lieutenant Commander and given his own ship.
They could have even gone a bit further and made Kirk an LtC and adjusted everyone else accordingly. While I don't think it's common for LtCs. to be captain now (At least in the US. I don't know about Brits/Canada/France/etc.), it wasn't that unheard of even as late at Vietnam. And seeing as how Starfleet just saw a massive loss in personnel, it wouldn't have been that big of a stretch at all to have a guy who was one of the top command graduates in the history of SFA and had just literally saved humanity to be promoted to Lieutenant Commander and given his own ship.
But in the Starfleet system as depicted on Trek, it seems like starship captains always have the rank of Captain or above. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head of ship captains who had the rank of Commander or Lieutenant Commander.
In BOBW, Riker was promoted to Captain when he had command of the Enterprise, then he went back to the rank of Commander afterward.
Kor
By "writers" I was including all of them, not just Orci/Kurtzman.
This is something that's long annoyed me about Trek. I mean, like I said, I don't have any specific numbers, but I would guess the total captains in the USN that are "full bird" is significantly less than 100%.
This is something that's long annoyed me about Trek. I mean, like I said, I don't have any specific numbers, but I would guess the total captains in the USN that are "full bird" is significantly less than 100%.
It doesn't make much sense.
But only a little less sense than Kirk getting a new ship at the end of TVH (semi-retired training officer who broke protocol and got his ship crippled by the Reliant; then stole the same starship (would that be piracy or mutiny?), breached a forbidden zone, destroyed his ship and commandeered a Klingon ship, thus inciting a diplomatic incident.).
Face it - both Kirks got a free ride.
(In the movies at least.)
It doesn't make much sense.
But only a little less sense than Kirk getting a new ship at the end of TVH (semi-retired training officer who broke protocol and got his ship crippled by the Reliant; then stole the same starship (would that be piracy or mutiny?), breached a forbidden zone, destroyed his ship and commandeered a Klingon ship, thus inciting a diplomatic incident.).
Face it - both Kirks got a free ride.
(In the movies at least.)
Agreed.
You'll never catch me saying military nonsense is exclusive to the Abrams films. It runs rampant across the franchise. Sisko poisoned a planet because some dude pissed him off and he didn't even receive a slap on the wrist.
The look on the judges faces in TVH had a look of 'We will get you, Kirk, one day, we will get you.' Kirk and Stern from Heavy Metal aren't so far apart so far as skipping justice is concerned.
But in the Starfleet system as depicted on Trek, it seems like starship captains always have the rank of Captain or above. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head of ship captains who had the rank of Commander or Lieutenant Commander.
In BOBW, Riker was promoted to Captain when he had command of the Enterprise, then he went back to the rank of Commander afterward.
Kor
I'm not inclined to defend the nonsensical decision to up Riker's rank and then demote him again, but my 'head canon' excuse always was that it was something like a field promotion, and that (obviously) there would need to be more paperwork/a ceremony somewhere to make it official, but that never happened before Picard came back, and Riker, when given the option to ratify the promotion to 'full status', once again said "Nah, but thanks anyway".
It ain't an elegant solution, though.
But in the Starfleet system as depicted on Trek, it seems like starship captains always have the rank of Captain or above. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head of ship captains who had the rank of Commander or Lieutenant Commander.
In BOBW, Riker was promoted to Captain when he had command of the Enterprise, then he went back to the rank of Commander afterward.
Kor
Wasn't Picard a Commander when he captained the Stargazer?
And then there's data captaining the Sutherland and whotnot.
Captain of a ship is a captain. Heck. Neelix was a captain. Okona was a captain. Granted neither was starfleet, apart from Neelix possibly.
I think the whole riker thing is as described. He would have been logical, especially under the circumstances, to assume command of the Enterprise, but didn't finish the promotion process by choice after getting Picard back.
The only real question is did the same thing happen in Gambit part 1 and 2. In which, Data is again captain, owing to being captain of said ship due to the 'death' and 'desertion/capture' of his predecessors.
Was sisko promoted atbthe same time as being given the defiant? And Worf and Dax both served as de facto captain of that ship, though it's a slightly special case.
My biggest gripe with ST09 was Kirk's far too rapid promotion to the rank of Captain. Even if he had ended up in command of the Enterprise after a disaster, he should only have been an acting captain at that time, possibly promoted from Ensign to Lieutenant when he got the ship home more or less in one piece.
My biggest gripe with STID was making Harrison into Khan. He could just as easily have been simply another Augment that was found alive after years in stasis.
My biggest gripe with STID was making Harrison into Khan. He could just as easily have been simply another Augment that was found alive after years in stasis.
He was supposedly a Lieutenant Commander when his captain and first officer were killed. Though I think he rose to the rank of captain when he took permanent command. Though I may be confusing episodes with books.
Sometimes it all just melts together.
Who says he didn't just see an opportunity to strike fear, and lied about his name?
"My name ... is KHAN!"
"Whut?"
"Khan! You know, Sikh badass, mentally and physically superior, ruler of nations?"
"Nah, not seeing it."
"Ok, call me Johnny."
"Now that's a name. Hey, Johnny!"
I wish!
"Starfleet could use you."
That line suggests to me Officer material was hard to come by. Pike saw the potential in Kirk so, so long as he kept his nose clean, he intended to get Kirk into the chair. And I doubt it was easy.
Just as we saw Pike pulling strings to keep him in it, there probably was more string pulling to get him there that we didn't see, but is inferred. I imagine most of Pike's peers all had a stake in the running bet over success or failure in this bid to make a man out of Kirk but in the end Pike's faith in him is vindicated.
I wonder what side of the betting pool Marcus had been on?
That line suggests to me Officer material was hard to come by. Pike saw the potential in Kirk so, so long as he kept his nose clean, he intended to get Kirk into the chair. And I doubt it was easy.
Just as we saw Pike pulling strings to keep him in it, there probably was more string pulling to get him there that we didn't see, but is inferred. I imagine most of Pike's peers all had a stake in the running bet over success or failure in this bid to make a man out of Kirk but in the end Pike's faith in him is vindicated.
I wonder what side of the betting pool Marcus had been on?
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After the USS Kelvin was destroyed by mysterious looking Vulcans, recruitment to Starfleet Academy dropped like a stone. They were so desperate for officers they took in former juvenile delinquents. Or the caliber of officers had such a stick up their butts, Pike decided they needed more rebels in the fleet. Or they were extremely low on their 'good looking white boy' quota.
Could be. Section 31 couldn't sweep this incident under the rug because Civilians were involved, they couldn't be ordered quiet.
With high enough aptitude scores, sure, why not. Worth a try, at least.
"Starfleet could use you."
That line suggests to me Officer material was hard to come by. Pike saw the potential in Kirk so, so long as he kept his nose clean, he intended to get Kirk into the chair. And I doubt it was easy.
Just as we saw Pike pulling strings to keep him in it, there probably was more string pulling to get him there that we didn't see, but is inferred. I imagine most of Pike's peers all had a stake in the running bet over success or failure in this bid to make a man out of Kirk but in the end Pike's faith in him is vindicated.
I wonder what side of the betting pool Marcus had been on?
Given what we know of Marcus, I would say that Marcus admired Kirk's spirit, but might have been more of a stickler for keeping Kirk's nose clean. I think Marcus bet on Kirk, but as a bit of a grudging bet. Picture the captain and the XO from "Down Periscope" with their bet at the end of the film, except with Pike and Marcus if both had lived.
Want to bet it was the last one?
Pike might have simply wanted someone who was willing to think outside the box, and be creative in their thinking, rather than toeing the line that Marcus wanted them to follow. It was just my impression, but Starfleet seemed a bit more militaristic and Marcus seemed to expect conformity.
Kirk might have been more rebellious and narcissistic than Pike expected and that required some finishing, but there is still raw material that could produce a good officer.
I wish we could have a Captain PIke series.
I agree almost completely.... the recasting bothers me much less then the absolute rewriting of all the characters. They could have kept the same basic ship and bridge layouts as TOS and yet completely updated them to look sleek and modern, like they did with the uniforms. There was no reason to change nearly as much as they did.
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