All you've both said is 'I want it updated my way' which is all well and good but ultimately its a critique that is just fatuous and self-serving.
For people who don't like the reboots
- Thread starter indycar
- Start date
Thanks for your fatuous and self serving opinions. 
Yeah, it's a consession to the "origin" story they wanted to tell needing to fulfill audience expectations and end with everybody where they were in TOS. Remember at the time, Trek was mostly dead, so if the movie bombed, that was it. They didn't have the luxury of "he'll be promoted to the captain in the next movie."
What I would have done is have Kirk simply get commendated for original thinking at the end of the Academy scene following the Kobayshi Maru. Then the movie should have jumped forward about five years as Kirk is assigned to an Enterprise with Pike commanding and Spock as exec. You could then pretty much go from there as is, with Spock harboring resentment for Kirk cheating his test, and perhaps having heard of some other Kirk exploits of which he disproved.
If there's only one thing about the 2009 movie that I do regret, it's that they weren't able to go through with their original plan to open the movie with the TOS pilot Enterprise, under the command of Robert April, being the one which comes a cropper from Nero's incursion. I gather the original idea was to offer this as an explanation why the 'new' 1701 bears no immediate resemblance to the TOS design, as it wasn't actually literally meant to be the same ship at all, but unfortunately Paramount baulked at the idea of destroying the iconic TOS Enterprise on screen. So they rewrote it as the USS Kelvin instead (whose finished design basically just matches the rest of the Abrams-verse anyway).
Maybe they could've achieved the same effect if they'd done the Kelvin in "retro" style?
Maybe they could've achieved the same effect if they'd done the Kelvin in "retro" style?
I have often thought that as well. I liked the Kelvin and think Robau and his crew are quite interesting but I think there could have been some more nods to pre-TOS. At least they could have had laser pistols
As for the ship, I can agree at the destroying the TOS Enterprise. I think the style of the Kelvin actually worked as a good bridge between the NX-01 and the TOS era. There is the possibility of having something a little closer to TOS style, but I wouldn't want to use the Constitution class.
^ Yeah, I think I read somewhere that Paramount's objection was that "under no circumstances will the original Enterprise be destroyed in this movie", or words to that effect, which necessitated one early rewrite of the story.
I kinda regret that decision though, as I think seeing the TOS-era Enterprise being blown apart at the beginning would've had a lot of emotional impact for the fans, as well as explaining why certain things about the nu-verse may have diverged so radically.
But I can also see why Paramount didn't want to touch that idea, as it may have looked like they were symbolically 'blowing away' TOS to replace it with the new guys, and that isn't what they wanted to do at all.
I kinda regret that decision though, as I think seeing the TOS-era Enterprise being blown apart at the beginning would've had a lot of emotional impact for the fans, as well as explaining why certain things about the nu-verse may have diverged so radically.
But I can also see why Paramount didn't want to touch that idea, as it may have looked like they were symbolically 'blowing away' TOS to replace it with the new guys, and that isn't what they wanted to do at all.
Hmm. I thought they were cynically re-designing the ship to sell more toys. I don't mind them re-designing the interior, although I fail to see how the brewery was an improvement, but I would really have liked to see the TOS or TMP Enterprise dusted off for some more glory. I might have been angrier seeing her fly out of the ocean or performing handbrake turns though I guess.
Given the fact that the TOS models continue to be among the top sellers for merchandising it could have gone either way in the opening sequence, which is why I would have preferred more of an NX-01 evolution bridge towards TOS, but then the attack skewed design and emphasis.
Regardless, as I said, I think that there could have been a few more TOS nods than were actually done in the Kelvin era. But, as it stands, the Kelvin sequence is one of my favorites so it is a minor quibble.
Regardless, as I said, I think that there could have been a few more TOS nods than were actually done in the Kelvin era. But, as it stands, the Kelvin sequence is one of my favorites so it is a minor quibble.
There's mention in the JJ-verse timeline that Bob April's Enterprise was either destroyed or decommissioned, so the Enterprise we knew in the Prime Universe was destroyed in the JJ-verse much earlier. And that led to what I think is a pretty awesome redesign. YMMV, of course.
Also, the JJ-verse Kirk was 25 when he took command, which is three years earlier than his Prime counterpart. However, JJ-verse Kirk didn't enter the Academy at 18.
I love the reboot myself. But that's me.
Also, the JJ-verse Kirk was 25 when he took command, which is three years earlier than his Prime counterpart. However, JJ-verse Kirk didn't enter the Academy at 18.
I love the reboot myself. But that's me.
The First Time I watched ST (09) I thought (this isn't true to Trek at all) but after a couple more watches... Nah I did give it the benefit of the doubt and I do accept it as a Star Trek film, it's a good flick.
Into Darkness though is a whole nother story.
While I don't dislike Into Darkness, objectively it's a good film, it's very forgettable, unlike 09, I never found myself wanting to watch Into Darkness again.
Into Darkness though is a whole nother story.
While I don't dislike Into Darkness, objectively it's a good film, it's very forgettable, unlike 09, I never found myself wanting to watch Into Darkness again.
I would say the exact opposite, actually. The rank jump is weird and jarring, but ultimately a rank is just a title. Sisko commanded a whole station as a commander. Kira was given a starfleet rank of col. just so the Cardassians would take her seriously. Captains and even commodores have, at times, seemed to inhabit functions where they were basically glorified secretaries. Giving Kirk a technical promotion as a reward might have been stretching it a bit, but just that on its own would've been fine.
The thing that makes the whole story completely unbelievable is not the title, it's the responsibility. He isn't just given a promotion out of gratitude or respect - he's given complete responsibility over hundreds of crew and one of the newest, most advanced ships in existence. And he's given that despite barely demonstrating even the most basic aptitude for command - he doesn't come anywhere near the kind of incredible wunderkind performance that would be required to justify giving him such a huge increase in responsibility.
It doesn't make much sense.
But only a little less sense than Kirk getting a new ship at the end of TVH (semi-retired training officer who broke protocol and got his ship crippled by the Reliant; then stole the same starship (would that be piracy or mutiny?), breached a forbidden zone, destroyed his ship and commandeered a Klingon ship, thus inciting a diplomatic incident.).
Face it - both Kirks got a free ride.
(In the movies at least.)
Eh... That Kirk at least had a long and exemplary record, was proven right in his objections to SF about not rescuing Spock (which would mean zero in the real world, but Starfleet is idealistic that way), happened to simultaneously - and despite being severely disadvantaged - uncover and stop an already underway Klingon plot to attack Federation scientists, steal Genesis and use it as a weapon (which would've been a much larger diplomatic incident than what actually happened - probably a war), and save lives in the process, and then also saved the entire Earth for good measure (true, he wasn't alone, but he had much more of a hand in STIV's resolution than he did in ST09's, and the reward at the end of STIV was as much for the whole crew as it was for Kirk).
The only real problem I have with that from a plausibility standpoint is the fact that they did all start out semi-retired, running training missions and then sort of randomly transitioned back to active duty for no apparent reason. But that's a problem with the entire film series - with its constant waffling about whether or not its time for them to settle down and let the young people get on with it - not just the one decision to give them a new Enterprise.
Not to mention, there's a big difference between a plot hole that is never really explained by the movie, but which is at least conceivable (like Starfleet deciding that putting Kirk out to pasture was premature, or maybe just having a temporary shortage of experienced command crew) and a plot hole that just does not make any sense whatsoever (like taking a guy who's never even commanded a dinghy and putting him in charge of a warship).
The way I see it, some decision was made to make ST09 an origin story, and some further decision was made that it would be more of a superhero-type origin: In the course of one film adventure, the protagonist ends up in the hero position just because he's so great, has such innate powers and is basically destined to be there. The rules that would govern mere mortals' careers don't apply.
Personally, that kind of story doesn't interest me much and never has. I think perfectly good stories could be told about young Kirk learning the ropes, making mistakes and paying dues at lower levels. I'm thinking of how Forester wrote seven or eight novels about Captain and Admiral Hornblower before visiting the formative experiences and adventures of Midshipman and Lieutenant and Commander Hornblower. And the stories of the green midshipman supervising a dozen sailors were no less engaging for the smaller scale.
Of course all the other characters would not be in their "traditional" positions, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that; there could be other perfectly good characters.
Now the question is: Could that kind of a story be made into a big-budget movie "reboot" of an established franchise? I think probably not. But, so what? It's no matter to me; I don't have to watch the movie again or see any new ones, and my lack of support will not make one bit of difference to their success.
Personally, that kind of story doesn't interest me much and never has. I think perfectly good stories could be told about young Kirk learning the ropes, making mistakes and paying dues at lower levels. I'm thinking of how Forester wrote seven or eight novels about Captain and Admiral Hornblower before visiting the formative experiences and adventures of Midshipman and Lieutenant and Commander Hornblower. And the stories of the green midshipman supervising a dozen sailors were no less engaging for the smaller scale.
Of course all the other characters would not be in their "traditional" positions, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that; there could be other perfectly good characters.
Now the question is: Could that kind of a story be made into a big-budget movie "reboot" of an established franchise? I think probably not. But, so what? It's no matter to me; I don't have to watch the movie again or see any new ones, and my lack of support will not make one bit of difference to their success.
Exactly. They should have promoted the inanimate carbon rod! Or maybe give Number One the command she deserved and let Kirk be her first officer. Except I guess they screwed that pooch by promoting Spock to be a 26-year old full commander and first officer. Spock has nowhere else to go, despite doing more than Kirk to save the day.
Not exactly. If they had followed Spock, Earth would be a black hole.
Yeah but if they'd followed Kirk, same outcome. It was actually Spock Prime who saved the day.
Spock Prime put things in motion, but hung everything on Kirk's leadership ability.
You are both wrong. Without Cupcake, no one would have survived.
True but if Kirk's leadership ability was the only factor, he would have gone off half-cocked without the information or technology he needed to save the Earth. He wasn't even the final protagonist necessary - that was NuSpock. I suppose if you only pick one link in the chain, you can just as easily say Gailla saved the day, because if she wasn't easy, Kirk would never have overheard Uhura.
As it is, Kirk's plan was still pretty half-assed and should not have worked. Logically, the Narada should have reached Earth weeks before the Enterprise, who was limited to less than warp 4, her shields should have been up until she had to deploy the drill thus giving only a brief window of transport while in Earth orbit, and her own internal sensors should have beamed the intruders back out into space almost as soon as they arrived. Kirk's plan succeeded because of a series of plot holes that he had no way of predicting unless he just believed Spock Prime that the universe wanted him to succeed... ;-)
Forcing in the "original characters" was the biggest flaw of the movie, and the promotion was a side effect of that.
I've always been intrigued by The Cage and Where No man Has Gone Before. I've always speculated, what if the 2nd pilot is actually the end of the first year of the 5 year mission... (making what we see, year 2-4).... How impactful would that episode have been, if we had been following Lee Kelso and Mitchell that entire SEASON? How dramatic, and how huge would those deaths have been...
They could have combined characters and elements from Pike/Cage and the early Kirk years, used Spock to get, maybe, Kirk and McCoy onto the early Enterprise, and started out the crew with some combination of Pike, Number One, Mitchell, Kelso, (Boyce/ Piper) and the blonde (u can say Dehner, or use Carol.) None of the characters have much of a history, so they would have been wide open for re interpretation, and could be used in any story direction, with the rest of the "regular" crew showing up in background scenes and easter eggs, where they could be set into place by the 2nd or 3rd movie if the plot demanded it.
Yeah, I know, not the kind of Trek movie or audience they were looking for...
And Mitchell would have been a great way to do the "superhero" type Trek movie.
I've always been intrigued by The Cage and Where No man Has Gone Before. I've always speculated, what if the 2nd pilot is actually the end of the first year of the 5 year mission... (making what we see, year 2-4).... How impactful would that episode have been, if we had been following Lee Kelso and Mitchell that entire SEASON? How dramatic, and how huge would those deaths have been...
They could have combined characters and elements from Pike/Cage and the early Kirk years, used Spock to get, maybe, Kirk and McCoy onto the early Enterprise, and started out the crew with some combination of Pike, Number One, Mitchell, Kelso, (Boyce/ Piper) and the blonde (u can say Dehner, or use Carol.) None of the characters have much of a history, so they would have been wide open for re interpretation, and could be used in any story direction, with the rest of the "regular" crew showing up in background scenes and easter eggs, where they could be set into place by the 2nd or 3rd movie if the plot demanded it.
Yeah, I know, not the kind of Trek movie or audience they were looking for...
And Mitchell would have been a great way to do the "superhero" type Trek movie.
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Why are they limited to Warp 4?
Why is Gaila easy?
We don't know if the Narada's shields operate with the dill working. It's not a military vessel in the traditional sense.
Yes, Kirk's plan is pretty "half assed" but that's the whole point. He learns, a little bit, to rely on others to help him form a plan, and everyone gets to show their strengths.
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