For people who don't like the reboots

[Grendelsbayne]

Why are they limited to Warp 4?

Why is Gaila easy?

We don't know if the Narada's shields operate with the dill working. It's not a military vessel in the traditional sense.

Yes, Kirk's plan is pretty "half assed" but that's the whole point. He learns, a little bit, to rely on others to help him form a plan, and everyone gets to show their strengths.

Right. But the fact that that is the whole point is exactly why the result makes no sense. He doesn't display exemplary leadership. He is forced by circumstances to sort of stumble into learning one of the most basic leadership principles there is. He didn't come up with the plan, he didn't inspire the plan, he didn't refine the plan, he didn't implement the plan. Once the point is passed that Spock is convinced they have to act alone and not wait for help, he contributes basically nothing to the final outcome, except rescuing Pike (which has nothing to do with command).

 

[fireproof78]

Ok. I'm now going to suppose the point is that Kirk demonstrates no leadership qualities and that he shouldn't have been given command of the Enterprise at the end of the film-is that correct.
If so, you'll get no argument from me and is one of the facets of STID that I enjoy.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Ok. I'm now going to suppose the point is that Kirk demonstrates no leadership qualities and that he shouldn't have been given command of the Enterprise at the end of the film-is that correct.
If so, you'll get no argument from me and is one of the facets of STID that I enjoy.

That is indeed the point.

 

[BillJ]

Yes, Kirk's plan is pretty "half assed" but that's the whole point. He learns, a little bit, to rely on others to help him form a plan, and everyone gets to show their strengths.

Bingo.

 

[Pauln6]

Ok. I'm now going to suppose the point is that Kirk demonstrates no leadership qualities and that he shouldn't have been given command of the Enterprise at the end of the film-is that correct.
If so, you'll get no argument from me and is one of the facets of STID that I enjoy.

Yes, they certainly pulled it back a bit in the second movie but could easily have run the same arc with him as Pike's (or Number One's) first officer in occasional command. But of course even though STiD covers the fact that he isn't really ready for command, that doesn't change the fact that this should have been blatantly obvious. Further, after some more dubious decision-making, we're still supposed to think he's grown enough to be ready by the end.

I also think he would have showed greater leadership quality if he'd ordered (or at least inspired) Chekov to his death. Kirk's plan to save the ship is as half-assed as his plan in ST09. He isn't an engineer, he doesn't know exactly what's causing the problem, and he literally kicks the ship better. If Chekov had been alongside him sharing his fate, it would have at least changed the death scene to be less TWoKy.

 

[fireproof78]

That is indeed the point.

Ok.

Bingo.

Thank you

Yes, they certainly pulled it back a bit in the second movie but could easily have run the same arc with him as Pike's (or Number One's) first officer in occasional command. But of course even though STiD covers the fact that he isn't really ready for command, that doesn't change the fact that this should have been blatantly obvious. Further, after some more dubious decision-making, we're still supposed to think he's grown enough to be ready by the end.

I also think he would have showed greater leadership quality if he'd ordered (or at least inspired) Chekov to his death. Kirk's plan to save the ship is as half-assed as his plan in ST09. He isn't an engineer, he doesn't know exactly what's causing the problem, and he literally kicks the ship better. If Chekov had been alongside him sharing his fate, it would have at least changed the death scene to be less TWoKy.

Having recently rewatched that scene I still don't get that TWOK feel, save for the lines between Kirk and Spock. Yes, it feels "half assed" for Kirk to do what he did but that doesn't diminish his decision or the lesson he learned. And, personally, I don't think Chekov dying would have matured Kirk in the same way. I think he would have become resentful, and gone AWOL from Starfleet. The lesson would have been different, and I think he would have rebelled against it, rather than learned from it.

As for Kirk's rapid promotion it's a minor annoyance, but hardly ruins the film for me. I think Kirk does a lot of maturing between Nibiru and the engine room scene, and his seasoning under fire certainly adds a lot more to his growth.

Obviously, this is a YMMV moment, but the issues that come up with Abrams Trek are minor, in comparison to my enjoyment of the overall character arcs.

 

[Pauln6]

And, personally, I don't think Chekov dying would have matured Kirk in the same way. I think he would have become resentful, and gone AWOL from Starfleet. The lesson would have been different, and I think he would have rebelled against it, rather than learned from it.

Maybe that's the point we're trying to make about Kirk's readiness to lead. If you think he'd falter the first time he had to sacrifice one of his crew because it was necessary for the greater good then what you are saying is that he isn't ready to be a leader. Remember Troi's (rather silly) command test? Kirk would fail.

Spock's act of self-sacrifice in TWoK is moving BUT it's also logical. He's qualified to effect repairs (more qualified than the trainees for sure) and his Vulcan physiology will allow him to last long enough to get the job done. I struggle to see the logic of Kirk's decision. The fact that there are no engineers even in the right part of the ship to kick the engines better could be argued to be a failure of Kirk's leadership ability in promoting an inexperienced 18-year old ensign, one year post-graduation, to be his chief engineer. And the decision to leave Scotty behind, well see Troi's command test above. ;-P

In the Kobayashi Maru test in TWoK, the captain survives and everybody else dies. THAT is the importance of the test although we know that both Kirks balk at accepting that as a necessary evil.

But of course there is a lot to love in the movies too. Plus it's not as if Kirk Prime doesn't make howlingly poor decisions on more than one occasion. Some of the plot lines and character arc work reasonably well. I just wish they were a bit more nuanced.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe that's the point we're trying to make about Kirk's readiness to lead. If you think he'd falter the first time he had to sacrifice one of his crew because it was necessary for the greater good then what you are saying is that he isn't ready to be a leader. Remember Troi's (rather silly) command test? Kirk would fail.

Pretty sure I already acknowledged that I didn't think Kirk was ready for command. I'm pretty confident in that. As for sacrificing a crew member, my larger point is that Kirk needed to understand sacrifice-period. Something that his father did with question, that Robau did, and even Pike (to a certain degree). Kirk doesn't understand sacrifice. He will fight and fight and fight to keep a person from dying (Sulu, Spock, Pike) but he doesn't recognize why someone would sacrifice himself-there could be potential deeper psychological meaning there, but I'll leave that analysis for later.

Spock's act of self-sacrifice in TWoK is moving BUT it's also logical. He's qualified to effect repairs (more qualified than the trainees for sure) and his Vulcan physiology will allow him to last long enough to get the job done. I struggle to see the logic of Kirk's decision. The fact that there are no engineers even in the right part of the ship to kick the engines better could be argued to be a failure of Kirk's leadership ability in promoting an inexperienced 18-year old ensign, one year post-graduation, to be his chief engineer. And the decision to leave Scotty behind, well see Troi's command test above. ;-P

I don't see the logic in Kirk's decision beyond the fact that Kirk feels responsible. The damage to the Enterprise, the fact that so many of his crew have died because of his bad decisions, it is very much a movie moment of accepting responsibility and moving to make penance, or recompense, or whatever you would like to call it.

As for Chekov, I have my own theory about that, but it has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the film, so I'll leave that argument alone.

In the Kobayashi Maru test in TWoK, the captain survives and everybody else dies. THAT is the importance of the test although we know that both Kirks balk at accepting that as a necessary evil.

But of course there is a lot to love in the movies too. Plus it's not as if Kirk Prime doesn't make howlingly poor decisions on more than one occasion. Some of the plot lines and character arc work reasonably well. I just wish they were a bit more nuanced.

Forgive me, but I'm confused. I thought the point of the Kobayashi Maru was to face death by both the captain and crew? It isn't like captain is supposed to survive either, since they are faced with overwhelming odds and their ship is likely going to be destroyed as a result.

But, I do agree with your larger point that both Kirks don't like such a scenario. NuKirk simply faces the situation sooner than his Prime counterpart.

 

[Pauln6]

As for Chekov, I have my own theory about that, but it has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the film, so I'll leave that argument alone.

Yeah, I think Chekov was sleeping his way to the top as well. He was after Spock's job though, that's why he looked so nervous when transferred into a red shirt. Kirk was more interested in Carol by that point.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, I think Chekov was sleeping his way to the top as well. He was after Spock's job though, that's why he looked so nervous when transferred into a red shirt. Kirk was more interested in Carol by that point.

Well, that's more interesting than my theory

 

[Pauln6]

Well, that's more interesting than my theory

It's all in the subtext... why else would he leave a 17-year old ensign in charge of the bridge?

 

[fireproof78]

It's all in the subtext... why else would he leave a 17-year old ensign in charge of the bridge?

I thought it was because the center chair was poisoned and nobody actually wanted to sit in it. Just watch how quickly they move in and out of the command chair. That's why they installed the seat belts for their next mission.

 

[Pauln6]

Could be space herpes?

 

[eyeresist]

Yes, they certainly pulled it back a bit in the second movie but could easily have run the same arc with him as Pike's (or Number One's) first officer in occasional command. But of course even though STiD covers the fact that he isn't really ready for command, that doesn't change the fact that this should have been blatantly obvious.

It's a shame, as they so easily could have covered themselves with a line explaining that Kirk captaining the Niribu mission was a standard training exercise for those in the command stream, and in case of Serious Business the ship would be commanded by someone more senior. (The Kronos mission was of course Marcus's prerogative, with Kirk as figurehead and dupe.) Just those two words, "training exercise", would have covered a multitude of sins.

 

[Pauln6]

It's a shame, as they so easily could have covered themselves with a line explaining that Kirk captaining the Niribu mission was a standard training exercise for those in the command stream, and in case of Serious Business the ship would be commanded by someone more senior. (The Kronos mission was of course Marcus's prerogative, with Kirk as figurehead and dupe.) Just those two words, "training exercise", would have covered a multitude of sins.

This is how I feel about the reboots generally. The core of the stories and characterisations are very good (apart from Scotty IMO) but they just needed to tweak a few things to remove the silliness and cheesiness. The dopey special effects like building the ship in Iowa instead of Kirk cruising past it in spacedock, the submariniprise and handbraketurniprise 'cos it looks cool'. Big and trashy and 'cool' to a twelve year old is not often better overall.

If you want to insta-promote Kirk and Spock, then don't tell an origin story starting at the academy, or if you do, allow the passage of some time. It would not have really changed the pacing in any way (and they even did it in the second movie!!).

Maybe all it will take for me to love Trek 09 and STiD is for someone to replace the scene in Iowa with the flyby from TMP, put a "Two years later" subtitle at the end of the movie, and dub any mention of Khan with Garth?

Nah - I'd still want Chapel, Rand, T'Pau, and Number One and I'd still prefer to replace the new Enterprise with the TMP one. Then I could truly relax and enjoy :-)

 

[fireproof78]

It's a shame, as they so easily could have covered themselves with a line explaining that Kirk captaining the Niribu mission was a standard training exercise for those in the command stream, and in case of Serious Business the ship would be commanded by someone more senior. (The Kronos mission was of course Marcus's prerogative, with Kirk as figurehead and dupe.) Just those two words, "training exercise", would have covered a multitude of sins.

I like that as well. There are several minor dialog tweaks I would make in both films that would take them up a notch.

I certainly still enjoy the films, bad and odd lines and effects and all, but there is always room for improvement.

 

[Phoenix219]

Maybe all it will take for me to love Trek 09 and STiD is for someone to replace the scene in Iowa with the flyby from TMP, put a "Two years later" subtitle at the end of the movie, and dub any mention of Khan with Garth?

Nah - I'd still want Chapel, Rand, T'Pau, and Number One and I'd still prefer to replace the new Enterprise with the TMP one. Then I could truly relax and enjoy :-)

Hopefully there is or will be some nice fan edits out there, to "fix" these types of problems with the movies. Some of the work done touching up certain other movies and series has been fantastic. Some of the more fantastical and contradictory elements could definitely be trimmed or removed on a project like that.

The "movie" era Enterprise is the most timeless, graceful, gorgeous version of the ship ever made. There was honestly no reason to redesign it for the new movies in any way. If someone (maybe Tobias or one of the other FX guys) ever did some alternate work for the space scenes from the reboot movies and replaced the JJprise with the classic Refit ship, with some trimming of nonsensical plot points, the movies could be improved greatly.

Replace the name Khan and allow it to be any of the random supermen and that movie becomes much more watchable already.

 

[Pauln6]

Replace the name Khan and allow it to be any of the random supermen and that movie becomes much more watchable already.

I can't remember how much dialogue refers to Khan, Botany Bay, or genetic supermen. Let's start a kickstarter to pay Benedict Cumberbatch to re-dub his lines.

 

[Pauln6]

Scratched an itch. I wondered how I could tweak the story to remove the silliness of NuSpock wasting a valuable escape pod when he has functional transporters and Spock Prime just sitting around passively to be discovered in a random cave. I experimented with the notion of Kirk being beamed to the planet with a security escort, where Spock Prime has already been working to upgrade Scotty's systems as best he can. Clunky dialogue aside, it was fun to smooth out some of the silliness.

 

[Nyotarules]

Spock Prime put things in motion, but hung everything on Kirk's leadership ability.

Which was still in the nonexistent stages, he had to get Kirk to provoke Spock in order to place him in charge, if not Earth would be dust. Leaving it to Kirk trying to persuade Spock and the others to follow him would be a disaster. All Prime had to do was transwarp himself to the Enterprise, meld with Spock and forget about using Kirk That magic formula works wonders!