On season 4 of Buffy...should I be watching Angel?

[Christopher]

It's interesting how they went out of their way to say her soul was destroyed. That's a worse fate than any other character has faced as she doesn't even get a nice afterlife. I don't know why they threw that in, unless they thought it was the only way the heroes would ever start giving up. Or, they're planning on some surprise opportunity later. The only other explanation is that they wanted the shock value.

I think it's just that, since resurrection had been established as something that could be done by a variety of means in the Buffyverse, and since several lead characters had already been brought back from the dead or had their souls restored to their bodies, the idea of death had lost its weight by that point. If it hadn't been established that Fred's soul was gone, then the characters and the audience would've seen Fred's death as merely an inconvenience, a temporary problem to be solved. And that's not what the writers wanted. They wanted a main-character death that had permanence and emotional weight, like it should. So they had to rule out resurrection as a possibility. They did the same thing with Joyce on Buffy -- establishing that natural, non-magical deaths were part of the normal order of life and couldn't safely be reversed. That's not about "shock value" -- it's about allowing death to carry its proper dramatic impact and meaning in a universe that's eroded those things through the overuse of the resurrection trope.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Yeah, but destruction of the soul is more than death, it's complete oblivion. Like throwing acid on the wound. They didn't do that for Cordelia but nobody thinks she can come back.

 

[Forbin]

It's interesting how they went out of their way to say her soul was destroyed. That's a worse fate than any other character has faced as she doesn't even get a nice afterlife. I don't know why they threw that in, unless they thought it was the only way the heroes would ever start giving up. Or, they're planning on some surprise opportunity later. The only other explanation is that they wanted the shock value.

I think it's just that, since resurrection had been established as something that could be done by a variety of means in the Buffyverse, and since several lead characters had already been brought back from the dead or had their souls restored to their bodies, the idea of death had lost its weight by that point. If it hadn't been established that Fred's soul was gone, then the characters and the audience would've seen Fred's death as merely an inconvenience, a temporary problem to be solved. And that's not what the writers wanted. They wanted a main-character death that had permanence and emotional weight, like it should. So they had to rule out resurrection as a possibility. They did the same thing with Joyce on Buffy -- establishing that natural, non-magical deaths were part of the normal order of life and couldn't safely be reversed. That's not about "shock value" -- it's about allowing death to carry its proper dramatic impact and meaning in a universe that's eroded those things through the overuse of the resurrection trope.

QFT.
I grew up with Trek, seeing Kirk and Scotty killed and brought back, and reading comics where character death lasted but a few issues. I honestly think it screwed up the way I act towards death. I'm so blaze about it that I sometimes take a step back from myself and wonder what the hell is wrong with me. I'm pretty sure it's because I grew up thinking death wasn't a permanent condition. Not even for religious reasons - I'm not religious at all - but just because I saw it happen on TV when I was a child, and that never left the back of my mind.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It depends on the universe whether you expect death to be a permanent condition. Like, in 24 you know death is always permanent (Or at least requires heavy retcon and an interpretable death scene). In Star Trek resurrection is only an option for the very top characters. I guess in Buffy they had resurrections done against their will and then had to make excuses for it not to always be possible.

The thing about the soul destruction, it doesn't prevent them from retconning or wishing Fred back to life if they really wanted. It just makes the death hit the characters harder. Hell, TPTB have shown they can alter history, if they choose. All the writers would have to do is make them owe Angel something big.

Edit: Now that I think about it, why does it seem in the Buffyverse only female characters ever permadie? I guess Spike's death was intended to be permanent, but if you look at protagonists who exited the cast prior to the finale (Oz, Riley, Giles, Connor) versus the ones who died (Jenny, Tara, Cordelia, Fred, Doyle). Why do the guys get to live other than Doyle and the girls get tragically destroyed?

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, but destruction of the soul is more than death, it's complete oblivion. Like throwing acid on the wound. They didn't do that for Cordelia but nobody thinks she can come back.

Well, that's the problem with resurrection as a plot device, though. It makes it so that death itself doesn't seem like such a big deal, so something more has to be added to make it painful. In a normal story, any character who dies is gone forever, and the audience and the other characters can experience that pain. That's normal for most kinds of fiction. But in a fantasy universe where the existence of the soul and the afterlife is a confirmed, observable fact and the dead return in one form or another on a frequent basis, something else is needed to achieve the same kind of impact that death carries by default in other fiction. Yes, it's meant to hurt, but I don't see that as mere "shock value," because it's simply the restoration of something that should be normal.

 

[RoJoHen]

Angel and Spike literally have a conversation about it. Angel says something like, "Death isn't permanent. Not in our world."

Well, guess what? Now it is. And you have to deal with it.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Except that's undermined by the fact there exist lots of plot devices where they could still bring her back, if they wanted. So if their goal was to make death seem more permanent again, they didn't succeed. If there was a sixth season and they wanted Fred back, they could find a way, soul destroyed or not. The only true permanent death in a universe like Buffy is the actress saying no.

Wow, just noticed Harmony is in the main credits now.

 

[gblews]

It was pretty clear before Spike got his soul that if it weren't for the chip he'd have gone right back to murdering. When he realized he could hit Buffy, he immediately went out and tried to murder someone.

Without a soul and with his developing feelings for Buffy, Spike could still be dangerous, however, it was also clear that his feelings for Buffy were having a positive effect on him. After all, his feelings for Buffy caused him to actually want a soul. Angeles didn't want a soul and didn't felt nothing for Buffy. Spike was in love with her even without a soul.

After I first watched the series, I thought I understood why Buffy could never love Spike, but after watching the series several times, I really don't see any reason why she couldn't love him (other than the fact that she loved Angel in a "heart wants what the heart wants type scenario). Spike though, was the better partner. If he had ever lost his regained soul, he would not have harmed Buffy, though maybe others. We saw what happened every time Angel lost his soul.

With or without the soul, Spike was a romantic who fixated on strong women. The chip gave him an opportunity to get close enough to Buffy to turn that fixation into something more concrete. He wanted to have a soul because Buffy kept bringing it up as the reason their love could never be real.

Gonna disagree here somewhat. Buffy was the only "strong" woman Spike became fixated upon. I wouldn't call his love for his a mother a "fixation". I also would not call his mother a strong woman. Same with Drusilla, who he also fixated upon. In fact, she was the antithesis of strength, having been driven insane by Angeles. Now Darla, I thought was actually pretty strong, but she wasn't the one Spike wanted.

As for who 'Deserves' her love, nobody does. happy.

What I actually meant was, it can be argued that neither "deserved" her love, but between Angel and Spike, Spike was the more "deserving".

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Now they've jettisoned Gunn too. Really isolating Angel heading toward the end. Trading Gunn so Lindsay can tell Angel the obvious.

Buffy did love Spike, just not romantically. I don't see why "Love" has to mean a sexual relationship. Buffy loved Spike the way she loved Dawn. They are kind of similar. Both one year olds with memories of much longer lives. Dawn created from Buffy, the good Spike arguably sired by Buffy. But Angel is the only man Buffy has ever been content with as a romantic partner.

I don't know if it's loving Buffy that made Spike a better man, so much as it made becoming a better man the only way to love Buffy. Spike was never as bad as Angelus. Remember in season two he technically saved the world to save Drusilla. But if it weren't for the chip he would have successfully killed Willow.

And Angel may not have wanted his soul but he's suffered more than anyone else in the show. Hell dimension aside (Was it ever explained why he was brought back? I forget. Did they retcon it to be WR&H who freed him?), everybody he's ever loved and tried to protect has died except Connor. The guy seriously deserves a break. He suffered for his crimes longer than Spike. If O'Brien watched Buffy and Angel, even he'd think "Wow, the writers HATE that guy."

Hey, Willow could rewrite the slayer rules. You'd think she could rewrite the curse to remove the contentment clause.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Loved Connor's sendoff. All the subtext of that conversation at the end. Also nice that they closed the prophecy with Sahjonn. And that Wesley understands why Angel changed their memories. Good to finally see Wesley not be a dick about something.

 

[DonIago]

Funny, I thought it was Angel who'd been a dick about things.

 

[Ethros]

And Angel may not have wanted his soul but he's suffered more than anyone else in the show. Hell dimension aside (Was it ever explained why he was brought back? I forget. Did they retcon it to be WR&H who freed him?),

The end of the Buffy s3 Christmas episodes "Amends" was always meant as a clear sign that a higher power had brought Angel back. In preventing him from killing himself by creating a sudden snowstorm over Sunnydale. Note at the start of the episode the weatherman is saying it's gonna be warm, warm, warm through the festive period, then at the end he's saying a cold front has sprung up out of literally nowhere only over Sunnydale, experiencing snow for the first time ever.
Not aiming this at you, but I've seen some people say "oh that's such a lame coincidence." how can you not get that?


They didn't use the term "the Powers that Be" until Angel, but that's who it was meant to be anyway.
Angel himself even knew in 1x03 "In The Dark"
"I was brought back for a reason, Doyle, and as much as I would like to kid myself, I don’t think it was for 18 holes at Rancho"

As for why they brought him back, well, he's a Champion

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I dunno, kind seems like TPTB didn't have to wait 100 years to end his torture. But WR&H might have wanted him nice and tortured.

Angel was a bigger dick in seasons 2 and 3 but in season 4 Wesley was annoyingly bitter.

 

[RoJoHen]

And Angel may not have wanted his soul but he's suffered more than anyone else in the show. Hell dimension aside (Was it ever explained why he was brought back? I forget. Did they retcon it to be WR&H who freed him?),

The end of the Buffy s3 Christmas episodes "Amends" was always meant as a clear sign that a higher power had brought Angel back. In preventing him from killing himself by creating a sudden snowstorm over Sunnydale. Note at the start of the episode the weatherman is saying it's gonna be warm, warm, warm through the festive period, then at the end he's saying a cold front has sprung up out of literally nowhere only over Sunnydale, experiencing snow for the first time ever.
Not aiming this at you, but I've seen some people say "oh that's such a lame coincidence." how can you not get that?


They didn't use the term "the Powers that Be" until Angel, but that's who it was meant to be anyway.
Angel himself even knew in 1x03 "In The Dark"
"I was brought back for a reason, Doyle, and as much as I would like to kid myself, I don’t think it was for 18 holes at Rancho"

As for why they brought him back, well, he's a Champion

Incidentally, I once again like to think it was actually Jasmine who made the snow storm in "Amends." It fits with my theory of The First and Jasmine being rivals in Buffy Season 7 and Angel Season 4. The First tries to get Angel to kill himself to take him out of the game, but Jasmine sends the snow to convince him to keep living, knowing that she'll need him later to bring herself back into the world.

 

[Ethros]

It's been aaages since I last watched Season 7, what actually was the First's end game? To unleash all those ubervamps from the Hellmouth have Hell on earth?
But then they still wouldn't be able to come out in daytime anyway?


That's why I always thought it was a shame they couldn't have had a big crossover that season. At the start of both season (B7 & A4) there's this big "something big n evil is coming" sense all the way through the first batch of episodes. A lot of fans thought at the time they were going to be connected I remember.
Plus the whole 'never ending darkness' on Angel would have really helped out with that Ubervamp problem.


Also remember that "from beneath you it devours" thing from the first half of Buffy Season 7. Yeah, that was quickly forgotten about.
Unless you say it was a reference to the Hellmouth in general... but kinda lame

 

[RoJoHen]

It's been aaages since I last watched Season 7, what actually was the First's end game? To unleash all those ubervamps from the Hellmouth have Hell on earth?
But then they still wouldn't be able to come out in daytime anyway?


That's why I always thought it was a shame they couldn't have had a big crossover that season. At the start of both season (B7 & A4) there's this big "something big n evil is coming" sense all the way through the first batch of episodes. A lot of fans thought at the time they were going to be connected I remember.
Plus the whole 'never ending darkness' on Angel would have really helped out with that Ubervamp problem.


Also remember that "from beneath you it devours" thing from the first half of Buffy Season 7. Yeah, that was quickly forgotten about.
Unless you say it was a reference to the Hellmouth in general... but kinda lame

AND those alternate-dimension demon followers of Jasmine called her "The Devourer!"

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think the First's idea was that without any slayers the ubervamps wouldn't have had any major resistance ever again.

The First is a patient evil. It knew that it didn't have to have one grand confrontation because it could win a series of minor confrontations, advancing slowly and inevitably over a long period of time.

 

[DonIago]

Did we ever get any idea how many potential slayers The First might have disposed of before anyone even figured out what it was up to?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Giles said "There used to be thousands, now there are only a handful left." But it's not clear how many there actually are left, as the twelve that backed Andrew in Angel didn't seem to overlap with the group from S7.

 

[gblews]

Buffy did love Spike, just not romantically. I don't see why "Love" has to mean a sexual relationship. Buffy loved Spike the way she loved Dawn. They are kind of similar. Both one year olds with memories of much longer lives. Dawn created from Buffy, the good Spike arguably sired by Buffy. But Angel is the only man Buffy has ever been content with as a romantic partner.

Well yes, obviously. But I was speaking strictly about romantic love between Buffy and Spike. I think the show presents Buffy loving Spike romantically as impossible because Spike is so bad, apparently with or without a soul.. But my point is that Spike isn't nearly as bad as Angel without his soul. So the reason Buffy couldn't feel romantic love for Spike needed to be something more than just Spike is SO bad.

I don't know if it's loving Buffy that made Spike a better man, so much as it made becoming a better man the only way to love Buffy.

Not certain of what you mean here, but Spike was able to love Buffy even before he lost his soul. He loved her before "becoming a better man". Not that it matters. His love for Buffy and his desire to have that (romantic) love returned is what motivated Spike to get his soul back.