Give me bad ass Sith Lords any day. I just felt all the bad guys in this film were lesser versions of what we've had before. It is different and on some level I look at Ren and think it is interesting that they went that route. He just isn't intimidating anymore though. I want a villain that at first overmatches the hero, that presents a credible threat, and allows suspension of disbelief that the hero might not or won't survive fighting them. Ren started out that way but then crumpled. Now I'm less excited to see his second encounter with Rey. Of course I'll be watching it, and all of the Star Wars films-for the foreseeable future until they pile so many on that even I can't take it. However I have a high tolerance for pain where Star Wars is concerned.
Kylo Ren RUINED! [SPOILERS] HELP ME PLEASE
- Thread starter TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME
- Start date
Give me bad ass Sith Lords any day. I just felt all the bad guys in this film were lesser versions of what we've had before. It is different and on some level I look at Ren and think it is interesting that they went that route. He just isn't intimidating anymore though. I want a villain that at first overmatches the hero, that presents a credible threat, and allows suspension of disbelief that the hero might not or won't survive fighting them. Ren started out that way but then crumpled. Now I'm less excited to see his second encounter with Rey. Of course I'll be watching it, and all of the Star Wars films-for the foreseeable future until they pile so many on that even I can't take it. However I have a high tolerance for pain where Star Wars is concerned.
This is also something that really appealed to me. I think that one of the goals of the prequels was to have us feel sympathy and pity for Anakin as we saw his path to the dark side. However, due to writing, the actor, whatever reasons you want to give, it didn't happen that way. Anakin didn't seem like a very sympathetic character and rather than feel bad about his turn to the dark side, I just saw him as a whiny brat and didn't care much what happened to him.
However, Kylo Ren seems to be following a similar path now, except flipped - struggling with the light side rather than the dark side. And I think it is easier to feel some sympathy for him. As others have mentioned, he has grown up overshadowed by these greats and clearly has a struggle with self worth. Am I upset he killed Han? Of course, but I also do feel genuine pity for Kylo Ren. He is a whiny brat as well, but he pulls it off in a way that makes you feel a bit sorry for him and like you hope he can find a way to work through his pain and anger and overcome.
I think they are going the opposite route with these films - rather than start out with this big, scary, overpowering evil thing that we aren't sure our heroes can destroy, the story seemed to focus more on how powerful and strong our new heroes are. Even the most inexperienced among them (Rey) is totally badass. She is the one who is intimidating. Instead, it's the villains that we aren't sure will get it together and defeat the good guys. The villains are unsure, amateur, conflicted. I find this a very interesting twist. It's almost like we want the next movie to show us that Kylo Ren can actually do it, can actually pull off evil, whereas in the first trilogy we were hoping the opposite with Luke.
One reason I like it is because I genuinely don't know where the story is going to go. When you start out with a big bad evil character and underdog villains, generally you can assume that they will train, be tested, find a way to overcome, etc. It's more predictable and we've already seen it done many times, and done best by the original Star Wars trilogy. No need to do that again. Even though there were many parallels between this movie and the first Star Wars, I am glad to see the story flipped a bit. As I mentioned above, it's like what we wanted to see from the prequels but never got, but even better because we don't know how this story will end.
This movie begs wise asses world wide to ask the question "Who names their kid Ben Solo, & doesn't expect him to go rogue eventually, just for continuity's sake?" 
That doesn't mean I could have a prayer of using one against a samurai. It takes a control over oneself that only the Force can offer, to wield a lightsaber safely, & effectively. That was the only real disappointment for me in the movie, that Finn used one with relative ease, against a Force user (Even unsuccessfully). Hell, Ren should've just been able to force will Luke's lightsaber away from him, or worse, wield it in Finn's own hand against himself.
The only way that scene makes any sense, is if we find out at some point, Finn is a force user as well
Actually, I read that scene as a continuation of him using pain to drive himself from the light side, similarly to how he hoped to extinguish the light side altogether by killing his father. However, that he still has to inflict pain on himself indicates he still has leanings toward the light, which would surely be true, since it's his mother who is the one steeped in the light side of the Force, & is more likely the source of the light within him
I've always looked at lightsabers as ordinary tools, but never as simple tools. The crystals, & mystique about their origins & history, etc... just makes them rare tools, but still not supernatural. The notion of a lightsaber is that it should be an ordinary tool, which is so terribly dangerous, that no one but a force user could wield it in any combat sense without doing massive damage to themselves, because of the power they hold over their own being & environment. That Han could use one to slice open a tauntaun is similar to me being able to use a samurai sword to carve a watermelon
That doesn't mean I could have a prayer of using one against a samurai. It takes a control over oneself that only the Force can offer, to wield a lightsaber safely, & effectively. That was the only real disappointment for me in the movie, that Finn used one with relative ease, against a Force user (Even unsuccessfully). Hell, Ren should've just been able to force will Luke's lightsaber away from him, or worse, wield it in Finn's own hand against himself.
The only way that scene makes any sense, is if we find out at some point, Finn is a force user as well
I for one am glad I have never seen an episode of Girls. I thought Adam Driver did a fantastic job of portraying a young man running from the pain of his past, heavily influenced by evil, and determined to imitate someone he never met but felt he identified with.
I thought Rey's perceptive mind probe was spot on - Ben felt lonely and abandoned and chose to punish those who he felt were at fault. He also was determined not to look weak in front of Snoke and Hux.
I thought Rey's perceptive mind probe was spot on - Ben felt lonely and abandoned and chose to punish those who he felt were at fault. He also was determined not to look weak in front of Snoke and Hux.
When Kylo Ren took off his mask, I immediately thought of the joke about a horse going into a pub and the barmaid asking "Why the long face?"
The whine is strong in my family...
The whine is strong in my family...
Spot's Meow,
You bring up interesting points. Yes there is a predictability to the scenario I described and want to see happen. But the danger is that if Rey is already a bad ass and can handle Ren with little to no training, she's only going to get better. While we watch Ren talk himself up into being more evil in future films. I mean what more evil thing can he do than what he did in this film? For Star Wars fans anyway? And even after that he's probably still conflicted and was left in a weakened state. Ren will present little or no challenge for her. I mean the films could be going into a way of exploring Ren in greater depth, but still I think they need a more threatening villain if they are going to explore Ren's feelings like that. Star Wars has provided just such villains in almost every incarnation of media, why move away from what works?
The inversion with Ren does add something different and we don't know where the story is going from this point on. But I think its a safe bet that Rey will emerge at the end of Episode IX as the victor and the First Order will be vanquished.
Without having a compelling villain, a seemingly impossible threat I think it gets boring. That's why when they weakened Ren in this one, I think they need to find a replacement or have Snoke come down from his throne for the remaining films.
And let's be honest, TFA borrowed heavily from the OT. It's not like they are shooting for originality here, with the callbacks, etc. And the little twists they made, like Ren being 'poisoned' (my word) by the light side, makes him interesting and different but not terrifying.
Why would that even be the case? Next time they meet he won't be injured anymore, he won't be emotionally unstable and conflicted anymore because he has now completed his journey to the dark side and he will have completed his training.
He might end up being scary dangerous.
It all depends on the script and acting.And I'm kind of expecting the next movie to be more TESB-like with the bad guys "winning".
It be interesting if Ren gets training and suddenly he is basically as good as Anakin and Obi-wan back in the Clone Wars, while Rey's as good as say Luke in the Empire Strikes back or Return of the Jedi. Where she has the methodical kendo styling to his fancy leaps and acrobatics. It would make it an odd fight if he looks more skilled, by she's more centered.
If the structure follows the standard Second Act style of writing a play, the heroes will be in big trouble in the next film. That is if they don't decide to invert who the story is about. What if this is the anti version of the hero's journey with it being Ren's path to becoming the hero of the Dark Side as the opposite of Luke's journey? That would be different, with Rey being the "Big Good" that needs defeating along with Master Luke as the "puppet master of the Light".
That would be so weird.
If the structure follows the standard Second Act style of writing a play, the heroes will be in big trouble in the next film. That is if they don't decide to invert who the story is about. What if this is the anti version of the hero's journey with it being Ren's path to becoming the hero of the Dark Side as the opposite of Luke's journey? That would be different, with Rey being the "Big Good" that needs defeating along with Master Luke as the "puppet master of the Light".
That would be so weird.
Implying the long game, that the light side doesn't get to win until Episode XII? That'd make Lawrence Kasdan more than a little ambitious, no?
Why would that even be the case? Next time they meet he won't be injured anymore, he won't be emotionally unstable and conflicted anymore because he has now completed his journey to the dark side and he will have completed his training.
He might end up being scary dangerous.
And I'm kind of expecting the next movie to be more TESB-like with the bad guys "winning".
Right now we don't know what state Ren will be in the next time they met. I think his instability will be a running issue for him-his inner conflict, the struggle between the light and the dark. And Rey or Luke might attempt to bring him back to the light. I can see Rey seeking to do that against Luke's admonitions.
I do agree that it will depend on script and acting. But still he has a demerit against him, a loss, and a bar he'll have to cross to be a legit threat to Rey. Granted I do think he will complete his training by the next film or close to it, but I have to wonder if they are keeping them close in power levels or having Rey as more powerful to hone in on Ren's inner struggles.
And while Ren is training Rey will be also, likely under Luke's tutelage-the greatest Jedi since Yoda and Anakin. It stands to reason she will be even more powerful than in TFA. So the underdog roles are reversed. With Ren having something to prove, with him having a loss to avenge. I would rather the underdog be the hero. It makes their eventual triumph that much sweeter because we know the crap they are going to have to go through. But if she's already beaten him once, beating him a second time isn't that big of a deal. I can see the story shifting more to her seeking to redeem him and the saga moving to another bad guy (Snoke perhaps?) to provide that larger, existential threat.
I thought Disney decreed that the "trilogy" thing was out the window, and they were going to just keep making new Episodes from this point forward (likely until people are sick of them).
Assuming Rey is Luke's daughter, I wonder if her talent is more natural, while Ben, being Leia's son, has to work for it.
Luke seemingly is the stronger of the Skywalker twins, and I suppose that could have passed on to Rey. Leia being less powerful (we think), Ben might need to work at it more, but still is the grandson of Anakin Skywalker.
Luke seemingly is the stronger of the Skywalker twins, and I suppose that could have passed on to Rey. Leia being less powerful (we think), Ben might need to work at it more, but still is the grandson of Anakin Skywalker.
^
Right now we can't say for certain. It makes me wonder if they had actually planned out Luke and Leia being siblings from jump if they wouldn't have approached Leia's character a bit differently, at least hinted at Force powers instead of fans having to imply them. Though in ROTJ Vader did think Leia was capable of being trained if Luke wouldn't be. Then again, Vader might have been saying that to goad Luke to the dark side as well.
In the discounted EU Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin Solo were all pretty powerful in the Force. Jacen at one point becoming one with the Force, and Jaina becoming the Sword of the Jedi. I'm not sure we saw the full extent of Ben Skywalker's powers were and now I guess we'll never know.
Very doubtful Disney would continue the EU continuity. I wonder if all the EU fans have peeled away now? If there's even an audience out there anymore?
Right now we can't say for certain. It makes me wonder if they had actually planned out Luke and Leia being siblings from jump if they wouldn't have approached Leia's character a bit differently, at least hinted at Force powers instead of fans having to imply them. Though in ROTJ Vader did think Leia was capable of being trained if Luke wouldn't be. Then again, Vader might have been saying that to goad Luke to the dark side as well.
In the discounted EU Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin Solo were all pretty powerful in the Force. Jacen at one point becoming one with the Force, and Jaina becoming the Sword of the Jedi. I'm not sure we saw the full extent of Ben Skywalker's powers were and now I guess we'll never know.
Very doubtful Disney would continue the EU continuity. I wonder if all the EU fans have peeled away now? If there's even an audience out there anymore?
Will there be a Mara Jade?
