The Walking Dead Season 6 Discussion

[AviTrek]

Scott Gimple (?) on "Talking Dead" also explained his rationale for doing it this way. He wanted to put viewers into the "minds" of the characters, to feel what Rick and Maggie were going through since they live in this world where when someone leaves you it could be the last time you see them and never know what happened.

If they really wanted to do that, we wouldn't have seen the obvious fakeout of Glenn's death. We just wouldn't have seen him at all. As it was, they were toying with the viewers. None of what they said on Talking Dead was any justification for that. It's shitty writing in what has otherwise been a very good season.

Agreed. End with Glenn stuck on the dumpster. Leave the viewers in true suspense of the unknown instead of a fakeout death. In fact, that would have been a closer mirror to Maggie because we truly didn't know what happened instead of being show a fake death and then later told it wasn't real.

Also, if that's the approach they wanted to take then they shouldn't have opened with the Glenn reveal. Keep the story on Alexandria and end with the balloons. Then you can go back and show how he got out of it(without a fake death).

 

[kitik]

So, the biggest surprise this week regarding Glenn wasn't whether or how he was alive, the biggest surprise was certainly Enid. Who saw that coming?

She also presents a possible third outcome to the Ron situation. The likely outcome seemed to be that Carl (or maybe Rick) would shoot Ron, but the huge problem there is that there is no way Jessie (or Sam) could stand for either one of them killing yet another member of her family, no matter how justified it might be. The second outcome would be a zombie solution, with either a zombie simply eating Ron, or Carl saving Ron from a seemingly hopeless situation, and thus Ron changing his mind. But Enid presents a third option. She could make a last minute appearance to save Carl from Ron, perhaps by killing him, or perhaps via some other more talky method.

Also, at this point, I think my Enid-is-with-the-bad-guys theory (that I know at least a few others shared) has to finally go out the window. Her reasoning for running away and a lot of her other actions was once again made crystal clear this week, and it reinforced what we learned about her in her flashback episode. Plus she helped Glenn. Seriously, who saw that coming?


As for next week, well, the math ain't hard. What do we get when we add fallen walls + zombie hordes + rocket launchers + a fuel truck? I don't know exactly for sure, but I'm fairly certain it'll be awesome.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Which really doesn't matter at all. If nobody wants or needs the prayer circle then nobody shows up. If some people do want or need it and don't have anything better to do, then there is no reasonable reason why Rick should get in their way - especially not when he actually does have better things to do.

They've got a zombie horde outside, missing people, unknown number of Wolves out there, weaknesses in the fence and untrained residents. Gabriel wanting to hold hands and talk about feelings is an unhelpful distraction. Rick clearly believes that regardless of his personal dislike of the guy. If Gabriel wants to provide a spiritual outlet for people then being useful and available to people would achieve that as well as earning some much needed browny points with Rick. As yet, he's shown no such character.

You're just circling back to things we've already covered. Most of the Alexandrians aren't being included in any of those preparations anyway. They literally don't have anything better to do. Letting them (if they need one) have a spiritual distraction can only possibly help. And whether or not Gabriel is going about it the right way or has the right attitude really has no bearing on the issue at all.

If Rick were still entirely in his right mind and was actually acting like a real leader (of the entire community), then he wouldn't pay any attention to Gabriel's flyers at all - he would actively get out there and involve the Alexandrians in their own defense and prove to everyone that they are all in it together.

But instead, he's throwing petty, passive agressive and totally pointless shots at Gabriel (who is entirely unimportant) in full view of the town, publicly shouting at Tara for daring to risk her life for 'one of them' and going off to do the actually important work entirely by himself without even considering the possibility that more people could get it done faster (and, hey, maybe quieter, as well? So that the zombies in that building wouldn't get so frenzied that they smash the wall...)

He's creating a steadily worsening crisis of faith in the community which, if he doesn't fix it, could ultimately split the entire group in two. And everyone sees it, too (why else do we keep seeing people begging him to 'not give up on us yet'?).

Even worse is the fact that his whole leadership crisis is starting to affect his operational judgement, as well. The plan to get rid of the zombies is to wait for other people who might be dead to come back and lead them away? Let's hammer some big support struts into the metal wall that's already weakening so we can attract even more zombies to the weak part?

 

[hux]

You're just circling back to things we've already covered. Most of the Alexandrians aren't being included in any of those preparations anyway. They literally don't have anything better to do. Letting them (if they need one) have a spiritual distraction can only possibly help. And whether or not Gabriel is going about it the right way or has the right attitude really has no bearing on the issue at all.

Of course they're involved; that was the whole point of the episode. They've finally realised that they need to be active in the running of the town rather than just hoping someone else will deal with it. They're finally offering help as well as accepting instruction; the single exception to this being Gabriel.

If Rick were still entirely in his right mind and was actually acting like a real leader (of the entire community), then he wouldn't pay any attention to Gabriel's flyers at all - he would actively get out there and involve the Alexandrians in their own defense and prove to everyone that they are all in it together.

Huh? Isn't that exactly what this episode was about. The residents finally getting involved.

But instead, he's throwing petty, passive agressive and totally pointless shots at Gabriel (who is entirely unimportant) in full view of the town, publicly shouting at Tara for daring to risk her life for 'one of them' and going off to do the actually important work entirely by himself without even considering the possibility that more people could get it done faster (and, hey, maybe quieter, as well? So that the zombies in that building wouldn't get so frenzied that they smash the wall...)

What? He tore up a couple of flyers in front of a small group. He criticised Tara for unnecessarily risking herself to try and help an idiot do something dumb. This is what he should be doing.

He's creating a steadily worsening crisis of faith in the community which, if he doesn't fix it, could ultimately split the entire group in two. And everyone sees it, too (why else do we keep seeing people begging him to 'not give up on us yet'?).

What?! He's finally bringing people together. They're actually putting in some graft and asking for instruction now.

Even worse is the fact that his whole leadership crisis is starting to affect his operational judgement, as well. The plan to get rid of the zombies is to wait for other people who might be dead to come back and lead them away? Let's hammer some big support struts into the metal wall that's already weakening so we can attract even more zombies to the weak part?

Leadership crisis? What fucking show are you watching? He's finally got the residents on track. It took a zombie horde to do it but they've finally woken up to the fact that they can't just play happy families anymore. They need to get stuck in; that was the whole point of this arc. Waking Alexandria up just in time... for the next bad dude.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

You're just circling back to things we've already covered. Most of the Alexandrians aren't being included in any of those preparations anyway. They literally don't have anything better to do. Letting them (if they need one) have a spiritual distraction can only possibly help. And whether or not Gabriel is going about it the right way or has the right attitude really has no bearing on the issue at all.

Of course they're involved; that was the whole point of the episode. They've finally realised that they need to be active in the running of the town rather than just hoping someone else will deal with it. They're finally offering help as well as accepting instruction; the single exception to this being Gabriel.

If Rick were still entirely in his right mind and was actually acting like a real leader (of the entire community), then he wouldn't pay any attention to Gabriel's flyers at all - he would actively get out there and involve the Alexandrians in their own defense and prove to everyone that they are all in it together.

Huh? Isn't that exactly what this episode was about. The residents finally getting involved.



What? He tore up a couple of flyers in front of a small group. He criticised Tara for unnecessarily risking herself to try and help an idiot do something dumb. This is what he should be doing.

He's creating a steadily worsening crisis of faith in the community which, if he doesn't fix it, could ultimately split the entire group in two. And everyone sees it, too (why else do we keep seeing people begging him to 'not give up on us yet'?).

What?! He's finally bringing people together. They're actually putting in some graft and asking for instruction now.

Even worse is the fact that his whole leadership crisis is starting to affect his operational judgement, as well. The plan to get rid of the zombies is to wait for other people who might be dead to come back and lead them away? Let's hammer some big support struts into the metal wall that's already weakening so we can attract even more zombies to the weak part?

Leadership crisis? What fucking show are you watching? He's finally got the residents on track. It took a zombie horde to do it but they've finally woken up to the fact that they can't just play happy families anymore. They need to get stuck in; that was the whole point of this arc. Waking Alexandria up just in time... for the next bad dude.

Involved where? I saw one group of a few people training with Tara and one guy helping Rick as a pretext for conversation - plus the kid pretending to train so he could try to kill Carl. Everyone else is nowhere to be seen - based on previous scenes from other episodes, probably sitting around at home brooding about the world.

If he were actually trying to bring them together, he would go out and bring them together. Organize the whole community to do what needs to be done. Not just randomly do stuff by himself and hope that the rest will either help out or stay out of the way.

There was still absolutely no reason to tear up the flyers - it didn't help anything, which means it could only possibly hurt if someone was watching and saw it as another reason not to believe in Rick, and while I don't remember his exact words to Tara, the emphasis in his statement was not on the fact that Spencer was being stupid, it was on the fact that Spencer wasn't part of the group. He basically outright stated that the Alexandrians aren't worth risking your life for. He later, rightfully, apologized, but the fact that that went through his head at all is a problem, and the fact that the statement was public and the apology was private is an even bigger problem.

 

[hux]

Involved where? I saw one group of a few people training with Tara and one guy helping Rick as a pretext for conversation - plus the kid pretending to train so he could try to kill Carl. Everyone else is nowhere to be seen - based on previous scenes from other episodes, probably sitting around at home brooding about the world.

We don't see people shitting either but we can assume that they probably are. We can also discern that certain things are happening based on what they do show us. In this case, they showed us a group of people training with machete's (including residents we've never seen before), we see the cowardly, useless big guy offering to help Rick fix the fence ("things moved slow here but then they moved fast; too fast but don't give up on us"). We also see Deanna planning ahead for the future.

The episode (and the season six arc in general) was all about the residents finally getting on board the good ship Rick and understanding that they need to pick up the pace. Gabriel is the only one who isn't playing ball.

If he were actually trying to bring them together, he would go out and bring them together. Organize the whole community to do what needs to be done. Not just randomly do stuff by himself and hope that the rest will either help out or stay out of the way.

He's leading by example. He knows that ordering them about doesn't work. They resist it (just like they resisted the plan to steer away the horde). He's working hard and hoping that they'll see it and realise that they need to get involved. It worked.

There was still absolutely no reason to tear up the flyers - it didn't help anything, which means it could only possibly hurt if someone was watching and saw it as another reason not to believe in Rick, and while I don't remember his exact words to Tara, the emphasis in his statement was not on the fact that Spencer was being stupid, it was on the fact that Spencer wasn't part of the group. He basically outright stated that the Alexandrians aren't worth risking your life for. He later, rightfully, apologized, but the fact that that went through his head at all is a problem, and the fact that the statement was public and the apology was private is an even bigger problem.

Rick sees Tara as part of the group but remember... she initially wasn't; she was with the governor. This highlights that Rick will eventually bring you into the fold and once he does, he puts your needs above those of others. Right now, he still sees the Alexandrians as outsiders because they've shown no desire to wake up to the world (which also makes them a risk to his people). If they do wake up, he will take them into the fold and protect them and put their lives ahead of outsiders too. This episode showed that most of the residents appear to be finally getting that message. He is bringing them together.

Like I said, this whole arc for me is about getting Alexandria ready for Negan. Bringing the community together and finally moving in the same direction. This episode showed that progress is definitely being made.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Involved where? I saw one group of a few people training with Tara and one guy helping Rick as a pretext for conversation - plus the kid pretending to train so he could try to kill Carl. Everyone else is nowhere to be seen - based on previous scenes from other episodes, probably sitting around at home brooding about the world.

We don't see people shitting either but we can assume that they probably are. We can also discern that certain things are happening based on what they do show us. In this case, they showed us a group of people training with machete's (including residents we've never seen before), we see the cowardly, useless big guy offering to help Rick fix the fence ("things moved slow here but then they moved fast; too fast but don't give up on us"). We also see Deanna planning ahead for the future.

The episode (and the season six arc in general) was all about the residents finally getting on board the good ship Rick and understanding that they need to pick up the pace. Gabriel is the only one who isn't playing ball.

Gabriel isn't shown doing anything other than trying to organize a prayer group. That's hardly indicative of 'not playing ball'. Especially in an episode that also included Spencer nearly getting everyone killed in an idiotic attempt to be a hero and the kid stealing ammunition so that he can try to kill Carl.

I agree that the episode showed progress. I strongly disagree that the very little amount of progress that was shown can be automatically inferred to be universal throughout the community and a sign that the Alexandrians as a whole are finally coming around.

Also, Deanna planning ahead is the essence of not coming around. She's not engaging with the harsh reality of the new world. She's not accepting that major things are going to have to change. She's avoiding the situation by daydreaming about the future, making plans without even having any idea when or how those plans will ever be possible.

If he were actually trying to bring them together, he would go out and bring them together. Organize the whole community to do what needs to be done. Not just randomly do stuff by himself and hope that the rest will either help out or stay out of the way.

He's leading by example. He knows that ordering them about doesn't work. They resist it (just like they resisted the plan to steer away the horde). He's working hard and hoping that they'll see it and realise that they need to get involved. It worked.

If you want to interpret it that way, I'll not argue too much, but it did not seem like that to me.

There was still absolutely no reason to tear up the flyers - it didn't help anything, which means it could only possibly hurt if someone was watching and saw it as another reason not to believe in Rick, and while I don't remember his exact words to Tara, the emphasis in his statement was not on the fact that Spencer was being stupid, it was on the fact that Spencer wasn't part of the group. He basically outright stated that the Alexandrians aren't worth risking your life for. He later, rightfully, apologized, but the fact that that went through his head at all is a problem, and the fact that the statement was public and the apology was private is an even bigger problem.

Rick sees Tara as part of the group but remember... she initially wasn't; she was with the governor. This highlights that Rick will eventually bring you into the fold and once he does, he puts your needs above those of others. Right now, he still sees the Alexandrians as outsiders because they've shown no desire to wake up to the world (which also makes them a risk to his people). If they do wake up, he will take them into the fold and protect them and put their lives ahead of outsiders too. This episode showed that most of the residents appear to be finally getting that message. He is bringing them together.

For me, it highlights that Rick has changed, is in a very different place now, and has already taken so much shit that he is literally on the verge of giving up on the Alexandrians ever coming around. Iow, that if this situation goes on too long, he may not be willing to take them into the group when they finally do come around. And in either case, he is still the only leadership figure the town has, he has a very poor reputation among many of them, and he publicly implied that only his people are worth risking your life for, not anyone else. That's a terrible thing for a leader to say, even if he thinks it.

Like I said, this whole arc for me is about getting Alexandria ready for Negan. Bringing the community together and finally moving in the same direction. This episode showed that progress is definitely being made.

I think it could be about that, in the end. But that end is not yet in sight and with things set up as they have been, I think it's equally possible that Rick could wind up splitting the community in two, and that those who leave may even wind up being the ones who bring Negan to Alexandria.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I agree that the episode showed progress. I strongly disagree that the very little amount of progress that was shown can be automatically inferred to be universal throughout the community and a sign that the Alexandrians as a whole are finally coming around.

Those who don't come around will die. Spencer is acting like his brother or Nicholas. He's not being very smart. He is not long for this world. Gabriel isn't very smart either, but he at least knows how to hide. It's that cowardice that Rick finds contemptible because it gets people killed.

Rosita explained this well to Eugene. And humorously, it was in the place where Gabriel advertized his gathering. Instead of people forming a prayer circle, it was a machete circle.

I think it's equally possible that Rick could wind up splitting the community in two, and that those who leave may even wind up being the ones who bring Negan to Alexandria.

I doubt this. Right now, the community is going to be split up by the zombies. There isn't going to be some sort of exodus. There will probably still be dissenters left over, but those people won't last, and they won't make up any kind of sizable portion.

 

[hux]

Gabriel isn't shown doing anything other than trying to organize a prayer group. That's hardly indicative of 'not playing ball'. Especially in an episode that also included Spencer nearly getting everyone killed in an idiotic attempt to be a hero and the kid stealing ammunition so that he can try to kill Carl.

But Spencer was attempting to do something worthwhile for the group and while Rick didn't appreciate the dumbness of it, I suspect he recognises that there was an intention to contribute. Gabriel contributes nothing. If he wants to be useful there are better ways to do it.

I agree that the episode showed progress. I strongly disagree that the very little amount of progress that was shown can be automatically inferred to be universal throughout the community and a sign that the Alexandrians as a whole are finally coming around.

Based on what? They can't show us ever single resident and where their heads are at. They can only indicate what's going on in the community by showing us sections of it. What I saw over these past six episodes was clear evidence that they have come around and are now making some effort to follow Rick's example. They've finally woken up to what Rick is all about.

Also, Deanna planning ahead is the essence of not coming around. She's not engaging with the harsh reality of the new world. She's not accepting that major things are going to have to change. She's avoiding the situation by daydreaming about the future, making plans without even having any idea when or how those plans will ever be possible.

Of course she is. She spent the first five episodes walking around in a daze, utterly distraught at the deaths of son and husband. Mute, catatonic and disinterested. The last two episodes have shown that she's snapped out of that now and is ready to be involved again. So much so that she's planning ahead for the town. She wants to make Alexandria stronger than its ever been.

And in either case, he is still the only leadership figure the town has, he has a very poor reputation among many of them, and he publicly implied that only his people are worth risking your life for, not anyone else. That's a terrible thing for a leader to say, even if he thinks it.

It simply demonstrates his loyalty to his people. If you get off your arse and contribute then you, like Tara, will become one of his people. I think the residents are smart enough to get that. People take comfort from knowing that they are part of a gang. Rick makes it clear that he puts his gang first and will do anything to protect them and he also makes it clear that if you work hard and follow his example, he will take you into the fold just like he did for Tara (who also used to be an outsider).

I think it could be about that, in the end. But that end is not yet in sight and with things set up as they have been, I think it's equally possible that Rick could wind up splitting the community in two, and that those who leave may even wind up being the ones who bring Negan to Alexandria.

I've seen nothing to suggest that the community will split in two. All I've seen is the slow realisation from the residents that times have changed and Rick is the man to lead them. As was demonstrated by the line... "things moved slow here but then they moved fast; too fast but don't give up on us."

They are finally coming around.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The episode (and the season six arc in general) was all about the residents finally getting on board the good ship Rick and understanding that they need to pick up the pace

Oh, please. Rick was the one--as of E7--still keeping the residents out of participation, which Michonne pointed out as incorrect. So much for Rick trying to get people to pick up some imaginary pace. You cannot do that when your "leader" does not want you involved.

Gabriel is the only one who isn't playing ball.

The Gabriel haters insist on pushing what is either the result of selective memory or not watching the episode at all. As posted yesterday, in "JSS," Gabriel speaks to Carl:

Gabriel: Carl?

Carl: What?

Gabriel: You heard what I told Deanna about your group.

Carl: What do you want?

Gabriel: It was about me, not you or your group. I know that now. I want to help. You tried to teach me back at my church. But I'm ready to learn now.
Carl: I think you need to tell everybody.
Gabriel:Yeah, I think you're right.
Carl:Come by around 3:00. We'll start with the machete.

Learning to use weapons is not an afternoon at the gym. He is trying to help, but some will convince themselves that never happened. Again, Carl has no problem with him up to that point, but when Gabriel asked Rick if there's anything he could do, Rick--in typically hostile fashion--says "No!"

Gabriel is trying to help in more than one way, but that will not go anywhere when you're dealing with someone consumed by hatred.

 

[hux]

Oh, please. Rick was the one--as of E7--still keeping the residents out of participation, which Michonne pointed out as incorrect. So much for Rick trying to get people to pick up some imaginary pace. You cannot do that when your "leader" does not want you involved.

He doesn't want them involved because they're clearly not ready yet and they won't be ready until they accept that his leadership is the best way forward. That is now finally happening. Consequently I fully expect Rick to give them more responsibility and respect as the community come together and move forward under his leadership. It took a zombie horde and some serious violence but they got there. Now we move on.

Learning to use weapons is not an afternoon at the gym. He is trying to help, but some will convince themselves that never happened. Again, Carl has no problem with him up to that point, but when Gabriel asked Rick if there's anything he could do, Rick--in typically hostile fashion--says "No!"

Learning to use a machete is worthless. He needs to prove himself as an individual of character. Someone who will not cower in the face of danger and shove you in front of the zombie to save himself. Someone who doesn't wander about leaving gates open because he's so wrapped up in his own shit. Gabriel has demonstrated no such character. Would you like to be caught out in the woods with only Gabriel by your side? I wouldn't.

For me, that's what Rick sees in him. Someone who will get others killed. Someone who will buckle when the pressure hits. It's got nothing to do with hate.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

He doesn't want them involved because they're clearly not ready yet and they won't be ready until they accept that his leadership is the best way forward.

No, he trusts them --until he decides he cannot trust them. This season opened with residents participating in leading the zombies--now, he decides to keep them out the loop again. flip flopping is not leadership.

Learning to use a machete is worthless.

Tell that to the Alexandria residents who lacked self defense skills against the Wolves--the very reason Rosita is now doing what? Teaching residents (and Eugene) how to use the machete. Its about basic survival--the very reason Carl offered to teach Gabriel back in S5.

He needs to prove himself as an individual of character.

Character is pulling Sasha back from a desolate state that suggested eventual suicide. Character is restoring Maggie's faith, after she struggled in the wake of losing her father & sister almost back to back.

That is character--which actually produced results. I doubt anyone can say plotting the best way to deal death, and coerce strangers into becoming your redshirts would have helped Sasha or Maggie.

Someone who doesn't wander about leaving gates open because he's so wrapped up in his own shit.

I guess that's worse than having Merle take Michonne hostage, to turn her over to a man who was going to torture, then kill her only to serve his own interests.

I guess that's worse than banishing a woman in the hostile world (with no authority to do so--remember, the council made decisions at that point) for his stated self interest.

Finally, Gabriel left a gate open and three walkers entered. No one died.

Rick did not kill Andrew, and for his troubles, his wife and T-Dog died.

As i've said before, if anyone wants to play the blame game, or question character, you will be in Rick land for some time before even thinking about another.

 

[hux]

No, he trusts them --until he decides he cannot trust them. This season opened with residents participating in leading the zombies--now, he decides to keep them out the loop again. flip flopping is not leadership.

Nonsense. He hasn't trusted any of them yet. He "required" their involvement for a period but he certainly didn't trust them. That was forced on him. He won't trust them until they show they can be trusted. The first step towards that is accepting his leadership; the second is getting their act together and acquitting themselves adequately when things get bad. The only solitary barrier left to total hearts and minds leadership after that is Deanna and...

Spoiler: next episode

something tells me she won't be around for much longer.

Tell that to the Alexandria residents who lacked self defense skills against the Wolves--the very reason Rosita is now doing what? Teaching residents (and Eugene) how to use the machete. Its about basic survival--the very reason Carl offered to teach Gabriel back in S5.

I don't mean it's useless in and of itself, I mean it's useless as a means of proving his worth to Rick. He needs to demonstrate that he is trustworthy and useful to the community. As yet, there's nothing to suggest he is. I would not advise going on a run with him for example; not because he can't fight but because he can't cope.

Character is pulling Sasha back from a desolate state that suggested eventual suicide. Character is restoring Maggie's faith, after she struggled in the wake of losing her father & sister almost back to back.

None of that is character. All of that is charlatanism. Sasha and Maggie would be the ones who showed character in those situations. The prayer meeting is the same thing; it's about him and his need for comfort and purpose, not theirs.

I guess that's worse than having Merle take Michonne hostage, to turn her over to a man who was going to torture, then kill her only to serve his own interests.

A completely different issue. We're talking about Gabriel's ability in the heat of the moment to put himself first and not run away when you're in a tight spot. Rick is quite right to be very wary of him until proven otherwise.

Finally, Gabriel left a gate open and three walkers entered. No one died.

Rick did not kill Andrew, and for his troubles, his wife and T-Dog died.

As i've said before, if anyone wants to play the blame game, or question character, you will be in Rick land for some time before even thinking about another.

I'm not blaming him so much as pointing out that he's a liability. I'd still rather have Rick at my back when the shit hits the fan. That's the point.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I agree that the episode showed progress. I strongly disagree that the very little amount of progress that was shown can be automatically inferred to be universal throughout the community and a sign that the Alexandrians as a whole are finally coming around.

Based on what? They can't show us ever single resident and where their heads are at. They can only indicate what's going on in the community by showing us sections of it. What I saw over these past six episodes was clear evidence that they have come around and are now making some effort to follow Rick's example. They've finally woken up to what Rick is all about.

I don't have time to go through all this right now, and most of it would either go back in circles to what has already been said or has already been ably answered by Trek God, but I did want to respond to this one thing.

If the point of the episode, as you claim, was to show that the whole community was coming around, they could have EASILY showed us tons more than what they did. We saw one group of six or seven people training with Tara. Why not 20 or 30 people? Why not multiple groups training side by side with multiple teachers? We saw one man helping Rick at the wall. Why not anymore? We saw Spencer going on his harebrained hero mission and nearly getting people killed. If he was coming around and not just trying to preserve his own sense of self importance, why didn't he propose his idea to anyone? Allow anyone time to prepare? We saw Deanna wasting her time on plans that won't be useful for weeks, if not months. If she was coming around, why wasn't she out organizing her own community to do what needed done? Why wasn't she bringing more people to train or to reinforce the wall? Or doing anything at all to actually help the community now?

They could've shown a LOT more than what they did, even just in the background. There is no evidence that the progress is anywhere near is widespread as you say it is.

And, incidentally, we also saw the doctor willingly joining a conspiracy to lie to the entire community, without even having the slightest idea why. We saw the kid stealing ammunition in order to murder someone. And yet Gabriel is 'the only one not on board'? Seriously?

 

[hux]

I don't have time to go through all this right now, and most of it would either go back in circles to what has already been said or has already been ably answered by Trek God, but I did want to respond to this one thing.

If the point of the episode, as you claim, was to show that the whole community was coming around, they could have EASILY showed us tons more than what they did. We saw one group of six or seven people training with Tara. Why not 20 or 30 people? Why not multiple groups training side by side with multiple teachers? We saw one man helping Rick at the wall. Why not anymore? We saw Spencer going on his harebrained hero mission and nearly getting people killed. If he was coming around and not just trying to preserve his own sense of self importance, why didn't he propose his idea to anyone? Allow anyone time to prepare? We saw Deanna wasting her time on plans that won't be useful for weeks, if not months. If she was coming around, why wasn't she out organizing her own community to do what needed done? Why wasn't she bringing more people to train or to reinforce the wall? Or doing anything at all to actually help the community now?

They could've shown a LOT more than what they did, even just in the background. There is no evidence that the progress is anywhere near is widespread as you say it is.

You could say that about virtually any communal activity. Where was everyone when this happened, why didn't we see everyone's response to this or that. We hardly saw any of the residents when Rick's group first arrived in Alexandria (where was Denise etc). It's obviously not logistically possible to show us everything. But what they can do is hint at things by showing us a small slice of life in Alexandria.

If there's a split in the community and all hell breaks loose, I'll be happy to say you got it right but from my perspective, season six thus far has primarily been about Alexandria finally getting behind Rick as their leader.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Wow... catching up on a lot of stuff, so sorry if I miss specific people and points...


I am glad Glenn is alive....it may turn off SOME fans, but not enough to make much of a difference. However, they will NOT be able to do this type of dramatic effect ever again.
The only way they can come close is if they kill off Rick. (And they can take several episodes having the characters remember & mourn Rick). They do that -- and they will prove anyone can die.


Regarding Gabriel....he had a crisis of faith where he failed completely... what he knew was completely wrong & he has to mentally rebuild. The prayer Circle might be his way of going back to what he knows. Now, in THIS universe, Scott Gimple, RObert Kirkman, etc. are the gods, so THEIR prayers won't work, and things happen because THEY say so (such as the miracles of Glenn's survival). But our heroes don't know that. Rick's just being a jerk to take down the posters. As someone said, it might be no one else shows up. But that ought to be up to the community. It's not like an all night prayer vigil or anything... Just maybe an hour or whatever they need. And if God existed in the TWD universe, he might answer/"talk" with those praying.

I agree Gabriel at this point is more of a liability, and wouldn't care if he died...perhaps he can turn around in some way.


Oh...does everyone here not watch The Talking Dead? The actress who played Enid did not lie when she said we'd be pleasantly surprised at her return. Glad she helped Glenn...though unsure how much she helped (i.e. did she distract Walkers, or just provided the needed water & shelter).

A couple other random notes::

ANyone else think Abraham looks like a Civil War general in his new uniform?

And if Rick needs to be angry at anyone in ALexandria, it should be with the armory "guard". Worst Security ever.


I've been enjoying this season so far.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Regarding Gabriel....he had a crisis of faith where he failed completely... what he knew was completely wrong & he has to mentally rebuild. The prayer Circle might be his way of going back to what he knows. Now, in THIS universe, Scott Gimple, RObert Kirkman, etc. are the gods, so THEIR prayers won't work, and things happen because THEY say so (such as the miracles of Glenn's survival). But our heroes don't know that. Rick's just being a jerk to take down the posters. As someone said, it might be no one else shows up. But that ought to be up to the community. It's not like an all night prayer vigil or anything... Just maybe an hour or whatever they need. And if God existed in the TWD universe, he might answer/"talk" with those praying.

We already know he exists. He sent that magic tornado from Heaven to take care of the zombie horde just before they met Aaron, and he cleared about two thirds of the walkers away from the alley and raised that dumpster three feet off the ground so Glenn could fit under it and survive

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Nonsense. He hasn't trusted any of them yet. He "required" their involvement for a period but he certainly didn't trust them. That was forced on him.

Now that is nonsense. He was trusting them, otherwise, it would have made no sense to have that many random players in the field, which could make things go wrong at any second. He most certainly trusted them, but later flip flopped, and had to be talked down by Michonne.

He won't trust them until they show they can be trusted. The first step towards that is accepting his leadership

..and what leadership has he actually demonstrated? In-series time, he just arrived on the scene, telling everyone how ill-prepared they were, but in the period when he was arguing with Deanna (late season 5), he's just saying he's better prepared. Truth be told, this is a group that was recently and easily captured by Terminus, had a member's leg devoured by Terminus members who successfully tracked them, botched a trade with a valuable (murdered) police officer that ultimately led to a standoff and Beth's death, etc.

That is the recent leadership check sheet of one Rick Grimes.

Alexandria had survived for a considerable amount of time since the ZA--long before Rick's group was saved from the wild, while other groups--from Randall's Woodbury / Governor 2.0 to the prison, Noah's hometown & Terminus did not. Since luck does not exist, Alexandria's survival was no accident, and no, the immoral practice of leaving behind those in trouble was not the key to that success.

I don't mean it's useless in and of itself, I mean it's useless as a means of proving his worth to Rick.

If you cannot defend yourself--the most necessary of survival skills--then you're a greater liability than any questionable notion of worth in the eyes of another.

He needs to demonstrate that he is trustworthy and useful to the community. As yet, there's nothing to suggest he is.

--an opinion completely negated by Sasha's return from the edge of self destruction, and Maggie's own restoration of faith. Two extremely valuable members would hardly be in the right frame of mind dealing with suicidal thoughts and depression, respectively. Rick owes Gabriel for that.

None of that is character. All of that is charlatanism. Sasha and Maggie would be the ones who showed character in those situations. The prayer meeting is the same thing; it's about him and his need for comfort and purpose, not theirs.

That's simply an aggressively atheistic position, as Maggie--raised in a house of faith--would be more sensitive to seeing the difference between an honest believer and a fraud, and certainly would not encourage Sasha to participate if she felt that way--unless one wants to paint Maggie and Sasha as gullible / stupid women.

A completely different issue. We're talking about Gabriel's ability in the heat of the moment to put himself first and not run away when you're in a tight spot. Rick is quite right to be very wary of him until proven otherwise.

You cannot prove anything if you're constantly pushed away. Rick has lad to learn hard, lethal lesson before--all due to his one-sided, hostile behavior, and I will not be surprised if he's due for another class in 6A/E8, during the rest of the season.

Finally, Gabriel left a gate open and three walkers entered. No one died.

Rick did not kill Andrew, and for his troubles, his wife and T-Dog died.

As i've said before, if anyone wants to play the blame game, or question character, you will be in Rick land for some time before even thinking about another.

I'm not blaming him so much as pointing out that he's a liability. I'd still rather have Rick at my back when the shit hits the fan. That's the point.

Most of the WD characters were at the point of being untrained. Carol, Beth, Carl, Andrea, and others were once green in dealing with walkers, but they required training. No one was born being a survivalist killer.

And, incidentally, we also saw the doctor willingly joining a conspiracy to lie to the entire community, without even having the slightest idea why. We saw the kid stealing ammunition in order to murder someone. And yet Gabriel is 'the only one not on board'? Seriously?

Well said, and we can guess how Rick's WTF trust in the son of the man he murdered will turn out. But Rick seems to think his every decision is prefect, and everyone else just has to accept it, so yeah, training Ron to use a gun was the best decision in the world.

 

[hux]

Now that is nonsense. He was trusting them, otherwise, it would have made no sense to have that many random players in the field, which could make things go wrong at any second. He most certainly trusted them, but later flip flopped, and had to be talked down by Michonne.

Firstly, he needed bodies, that's all. Had there been an opportunity to do this without any of them, he would have. Secondly, you're arguing that he needed to be persuaded... to trust them? That alone ought to tell you that he... did not trust them.

Alexandria had survived for a considerable amount of time since the ZA--long before Rick's group was saved from the wild, while other groups--from Randall's Woodbury / Governor 2.0 to the prison, Noah's hometown & Terminus did not. Since luck does not exist, Alexandria's survival was no accident, and no, the immoral practice of leaving behind those in trouble was not the key to that success.

Luck does not exist? So when Negan comes along (having never done so before, that wouldn't strike you as a matter of luck?) Alexandria clearly did get extremely lucky. Unless you're suggesting that they brilliantly fought off numerous enemies? Their luck is what this has all been about. Rick's group on the other hand, has been monumentally unlucky. That's kinda why the show follows them.

If you cannot defend yourself--the most necessary of survival skills--then you're a greater liability than any questionable notion of worth in the eyes of another.

It's not about defending yourself. It's about holding it together when things get sticky. Gabriel has only shown that in tough times... he would simply leave you to die and go and hide in a cupboard.

--an opinion completely negated by Sasha's return from the edge of self destruction, and Maggie's own restoration of faith. Two extremely valuable members would hardly be in the right frame of mind dealing with suicidal thoughts and depression, respectively. Rick owes Gabriel for that.

I think you might be slightly over egging the pudding there. One suspects that they would have ultimately come through their crisis' without Gabriel. The idea that he "restored" Maggie's faith is sweet though.

That's simply an aggressively atheistic position,

Say what?

as Maggie--raised in a house of faith--would be more sensitive to seeing the difference between an honest believer and a fraud, and certainly would not encourage Sasha to participate if she felt that way--unless one wants to paint Maggie and Sasha as gullible / stupid women.

No one doubts Gabriel's beliefs. It's not about his beliefs though, it's about his character.

Most of the WD characters were at the point of being untrained. Carol, Beth, Carl, Andrea, and others were once green in dealing with walkers, but they required training. No one was born being a survivalist killer.

It's not about being good with a weapon. I wouldn't expect Gabriel to be good with a weapon. It's about having the character not to run away when a zombie walks towards your friend. I simply don't believe Gabriel would NOT run away under those circumstances. He has the time to change that but right now, Rick is right to believe that he would cower in a corner while you're being ripped apart.

 

[Turtletrekker]

The question around the bar tonight is -- "Has Glenn ever killed a Human?" I ask the brain trust...