The Walking Dead Season 6 Discussion

[Servo]

From the two foot gap between the asphalt and the bottom of the dumpster to the alleyway full of walkers changing into maybe a group of fourteen, this episode has shown that the showrunners have nothing but utter contempt for their audience.

I can't really speak for the dumpster, as I'm not from the US, but I've seen big dumpster-style bins in the UK that probably have a big enough gap to crawl under, so it wasn't much of a stretch for me to buy it.

And I think Glenn's need for water implied that he'd been under there a while waiting for the walkers to disperse.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

And then he led his dead flock from the place where he locked them up to the church where he gave them sanctuary.

That was not deliberate, so there's no justification for hating the man. Its not like he pulled a Rick, who ultimately moved the pieces which caused Beth's death; if he did not make yet another vicious decision in hitting Lamson with the car and executing him, such an apparently valuable, level member would have been part of the trade. If Lamson was traded, Dawn would not have pulled her power move regarding Noah, which was the reason Beth stabbed her--and was subsequently shot.

Let's not forget his mistreatment of Carol--who ended up saving him (and the rest) from certain death.

And then he tried to get them turned out of ASZ by bitching to Deanna.

---a direct result of the massacre in the church, which Rick's own companions Tara, Maggie, Glenn and Tyreese viewed with horror.

And then he went a walkabout and left the fucking gate open.

Noted earlier, if you want to assign blame, Rick is The Walking Dead Jackpot Winner. Just start with Sophia: if Rick did not waste time trying to take down two walkers, he could--just as easily--picked up Sophia in his arms and outrun the walkers back to the highway. But no, he told an already extremely frightened girl to hide, while the sounds of approaching walkers drove her to her doom. It was losing Sophia that ended up getting Carl shot, Otis going to get medical supplies, which inspired Rick's bestie to kill him in order to save his own ass.

Then, there's Rick not killing Andrew, who let a horde of walkers into the main prison common area, which caused T-Dog to be bitten/die, Lori to be separated from Hershel, go into labor--and need a lethal C-section, and almost cost Carol her life. Does he deserve a pass for all of that loss? Gabriel was dealing with guilt over his dead parishioners, while Rick did not finish what he started with Tomas.

He's also responsible for the botched Michonne trade to the Governor (everyone knew Woodbury was going to attack no matter what). If he did not send Merle on that mission, Daryl would have his brother. Before someone says, "but Merle killed some of the Governor's men, so he had to take less experienced soldiers to the prison," he had already started training the Woodbury residents, so the result would be the same--except Merle would be alive.

Rick hands are covered in blood.

Don't tell me he deserves a pass because he did a couple of things right. So did Doctor Smith, but I would have been kicked his ass outta the Jupiter II.

..and you would just be a killer, since stranding him on some world with limited or no provisions would be a death sentence.

I wouldn't necessarily toss Gabe out on his ass for his transgressions, (Others have been just as weak at times) but I would seriously object to him fathering a spiritual movement amongst my friends & family. His "Way" is highly questionable. Any flock I'm in, I do not trust to his guidance

Sasha and Maggie trust him, and are better for it.

Another thing... In all of our relief, we have forgotten that it appears Glenn wasn't the guy on the other end of Daryl's walkie, calling out for help. That intrigues me now

Some assume it was the male half of the couple who stole Daryl's motorcycle.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

From the two foot gap between the asphalt and the bottom of the dumpster to the alleyway full of walkers changing into maybe a group of fourteen, this episode has shown that the showrunners have nothing but utter contempt for their audience.

I can't really speak for the dumpster, as I'm not from the US, but I've seen big dumpster-style bins in the UK that probably have a big enough gap to crawl under, so it wasn't much of a stretch for me to buy it.

And I think Glenn's need for water implied that he'd been under there a while waiting for the walkers to disperse.

I'm talking about when Glenn and Nicholas land on the ground. In the episode it happens, the alleyway is crammed full of walkers. Last night's episode, there's maybe fourteen, twenty TOPS. Then, they say fuck it, turn around and leave after giving up on Glenn.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I'm talking about when Glenn and Nicholas land on the ground. In the episode it happens, the alleyway is crammed full of walkers. Last night's episode, there's maybe fourteen, twenty TOPS. Then, they say fuck it, turn around and leave after giving up on Glenn.

Weren't the bulk of the walkers distracted by Enid rolling that rusted can?

 

[cylkoth]

^ Yes. Enid rolled a (single!) can at the alley's entrance, and that was enough to distract them to leave our Glen in peace.

 

[Admiral2]

And then he led his dead flock from the place where he locked them up to the church where he gave them sanctuary.

That was not deliberate, so there's no justification for hating the man.

Except that if he hadn't snuck out of the church and went back to the death picnic to moon over his dead flock, they wouldn't have had incentive - fresh human meat - to break out of their confines and chase his dumb ass back to the church.

Its not like he pulled a Rick, who ultimately moved the pieces which caused Beth's death;

Beth is dead because Beth wanted her abuser dead, and Rick only agreed to the trade because the other people with him thought it would be an awesome idea.

if he did not make yet another vicious decision in hitting Lamson with the car and executing him, such an apparently valuable, level member would have been part of the trade. If Lamson was traded, Dawn would not have pulled her power move regarding Noah, which was the reason Beth stabbed her--and was subsequently shot.

Only if you assume that Dawn had no other reason to demand Noah's return, like say, she was a bully, which was why Beth stabbed her. You have no evidence at all that demonstrates the trade would have gone differently if Lamson had been there.

Let's not forget his mistreatment of Carol--who ended up saving him (and the rest) from certain death.

And now he's trying to out-Carol Carol. Lesson learned.

And then he tried to get them turned out of ASZ by bitching to Deanna.

---a direct result of the massacre in the church, which Rick's own companions Tara, Maggie, Glenn and Tyreese viewed with horror.

Yes, but Tara, Maggie and Glenn didn't go out of their way to get the group kicked out of paradise. Gabriel did!

Noted earlier, if you want to assign blame, Rick is The Walking Dead Jackpot Winner. Just start with Sophia: if Rick did not waste time trying to take down two walkers, he could--just as easily--picked up Sophia in his arms and outrun the walkers back to the highway. But no, he told an already extremely frightened girl to hide, while the sounds of approaching walkers drove her to her doom. It was losing Sophia that ended up getting Carl shot, Otis going to get medical supplies, which inspired Rick's bestie to kill him in order to save his own ass.

Then, there's Rick not killing Andrew, who let a horde of walkers into the main prison common area, which caused T-Dog to be bitten/die, Lori to be separated from Hershel, go into labor--and need a lethal C-section, and almost cost Carol her life. Does he deserve a pass for all of that loss? Gabriel was dealing with guilt over his dead parishioners, while Rick did not finish what he started with Tomas.

He's also responsible for the botched Michonne trade to the Governor (everyone knew Woodbury was going to attack no matter what). If he did not send Merle on that mission, Daryl would have his brother. Before someone says, "but Merle killed some of the Governor's men, so he had to take less experienced soldiers to the prison," he had already started training the Woodbury residents, so the result would be the same--except Merle would be alive.

Rick hands are covered in blood.

But at least half of that blood comes from Rick making up for the misdeeds you listed by getting the group through all kinds of genuine hell as their leader. He's contributed to their survival. Gabriel just keeps jeopardizing it.

..and you would just be a killer, since stranding him on some world with limited or no provisions would be a death sentence.

Dude, the whole reason they got lost in space was because Smith tried to do the exact same thing to them!

 

[Trekker4747]

And I think Glenn's need for water implied that he'd been under there a while waiting for the walkers to disperse.

This entire first half of the season has taken place over the course of two days. So, time wise, the longest Glenn was under the dumpster was maybe a full 24 hours, more likely though closer to 12.

As for those people complaining about the show losing its "edge" from not killing Glenn. Get over it. I don't think the show has been abusing its viewers or doing anything to deliberately extend things out, it's just they have a certain type of story to they want to tell right now and this one includes, well, the events over the course of a couple of days centered around various characters. Man, you'd never handle watching daytime soap operas where they'll commonly have plot threads last for weeks with cliffhangers leaving unanswered questions for several days (episodes) at a time. (And, no, I do not watch daytime soaps, but am familiar with their format of story telling.)

Scott Gimple (?) on "Talking Dead" also explained his rationale for doing it this way. He wanted to put viewers into the "minds" of the characters, to feel what Rick and Maggie were going through since they live in this world where when someone leaves you it could be the last time you see them and never know what happened. I think the show's done that very effectively and from the episode showing Glenn's "death" alone it was fairly clear he didn't die once the shock wore off and you could analyze his "death." (Where the guts were coming from, and the tight angle on his face showing his reactions, that we didn't *see* his death which in-of-itself is "TV code" for "not dead" particularly in this show which has never held back on showing a character's death.)

I do agree we're over-due for a major character death and I suspect we'll get that next week. Though, it'll probably be one of the secondary characters like Tara or Eugene.

And given the news BTS of the show, many of us know Glenn's timer is counting down.

Be. Patient.

What happened here served some dramatic purpose in seeing how Maggie and even Rick dealt with the "loss" of Glenn and it may pay off yet with how the events may have impacted Glenn.

But because a character who we really had no reason to believe to be dead given all of the evidence turned out to be -shock- not dead! Isn't a reason to write-off the show so much or to say it has lost its edge. Plenty of time for things to happen and with Negan coming things are about to get a lot worse.
---
I can't even get into another Rick v. Carol argument again with TREK_GOD; been down that road too many times. He's obviously got stone-cold anti-Rick goggles on. Rick can do no right by him. Fine. Whatever. (And no, it's strictly not a RvC argument but it's in the same venue as it and Carol points have been made.)

Rick has made plenty of mistakes along the way, but I wouldn't say there's too much he has done to warrant such scorn. And I really do not see him becoming a Shane 2.0 as he still showing some humanity in him and even seems to be softening somewhat given how we've seen him talk, he dealt with the Alexandrian helping him on the wall and him dealing with EmoDingst in the gun-training.

Be really interesting to see how the fall-finale plays out. And, man, I really hope when the show comes back next February Talking Dead is back on after Walking Dead instead of AMC trying to make their new show a time-slot hit by airing it after TWD.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Except that if he hadn't snuck out of the church and went back to the death picnic to moon over his dead flock, they wouldn't have had incentive

--and that was the fault of the people who took over his church. Rick's group just stabbed and hacked people to death. Who would feel safe around anyone capable of such mind-staggering violence. His attempt to escape was justified.

Beth is dead because Beth wanted her abuser dead, and Rick only agreed to the trade because the other people with him thought it would be an awesome idea.

Lamson's death placed Dawn in a vulnerable position. No one asked Rick to kill one of the hostages you need as part of a prisoner exchange. What police academy did he attend where that was said to be the right move to achieve a peaceful end?

Only if you assume that Dawn had no other reason to demand Noah's return, like say, she was a bully

See the post above.

Yes, but Tara, Maggie and Glenn didn't go out of their way to get the group kicked out of paradise. Gabriel did!

No, they just watched their companions desecrate a church with a gruesome bloodbath.

But at least half of that blood comes from Rick making up for the misdeeds you listed by getting the group through all kinds of genuine hell as their leader. He's contributed to their survival. Gabriel just keeps jeopardizing it.

I'm sure T-Dog, Lori, Sophia, Merle, Hershel, the former Woodbury redshirts at the prison and others would not see themselves as survivors.

TG1: ..and you would just be a killer, since stranding him on some world with limited or no provisions would be a death sentence.

Dude, the whole reason they got lost in space was because Smith tried to do the exact same thing to them!

So, you're advocating revenge? That would not shine a favorable light on the Robinson party. They would just seem ruthless. Take a page from Kirk in "Arena"--the Gorn destroyed the Cestus III base, but in the end, he did not kill the Gorn captain, which would not solve anything, nor bring the dead back to life.

As for those people complaining about the show losing its "edge" from not killing Glenn. Get over it. I don't think the show has been abusing its viewers or doing anything to deliberately extend things out, it's just they have a certain type of story to they want to tell right now and this one includes, well, the events over the course of a couple of days centered around various characters.

Some are pissed because the series has repeatedly teased Glenn's death with baseball bats (twice), referring to the comic, but the moment when it appears he's in a no-win situation, he lives again. I'm certainly glad Glenn is still breathing, but in a way, its going to be anti-climatic if he still meets his end, whether its based on the comic or not, because the producers have now milked the suspense of his mortality out of all its worth.

I do agree we're over-due for a major character death and I suspect we'll get that next week. Though, it'll probably be one of the secondary characters like Tara or Eugene.

Tara's risk taking smelled of a set up for her death. As I pointed out yesterday, Masterson is pregnant, and her character has lost most of her points of interest post-Glenn reuniting with Maggie, so she's the perfect B-character to meet her end.

However, if one of the A characters dies in 6A, I would not be surprised if its Carol or yes, Daryl. I no longer buy into the idea that he's untouchable due to fan obsession. He's not been very interesting this season, so something needs to make him relevant again.

I can't even get into another Rick v. Carol argument again with TREK_GOD; been down that road too many times. He's obviously got stone-cold anti-Rick goggles on. Rick can do no right by him. Fine. Whatever. (And no, it's strictly not a RvC argument but it's in the same venue as it and Carol points have been made.)

Its not about being "anti-Rick," but pointing out that he has buckets of blood on his hands, yet some want to zero in on the easily explained away mistakes of Gabriel, and call for his death.

And I really do not see him becoming a Shane 2.0 as he still showing some humanity in him and even seems to be softening somewhat given how we've seen him talk, he dealt with the Alexandrian helping him on the wall and him dealing with EmoDingst in the gun-training.

Would you give gun training to the child of the man you killed? That only happens in TV-set-up land.

 

[.:: TSN ::.]

I dont want to see Glenn die in same way as he does in the comics. And I dont see them killing him that way. TWD has been pretty good in mixing the ways people die in the comics and in the tv-show.

Someone else will get Glenn's comic-death and Glenn eventually gets some other death, or lives to the end of the series. That would not surprise me. I'm almost expecting to see Maggie die before Glenn does.

 

[RJDiogenes]

All right! Glenn lives and the dumpster theory was correct.

Hopefully he will survive this new super-villain as well. Glenn has been there since the beginning, and he was the one who saved Rick in Atlanta. Killing off major characters doesn't impress me as edgy, just wasteful and childish, so I'd be happy to see them keep that to a minimum. Watching people die is the least interesting aspect of the show.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

In regards to those saying that Rick was right to tear down Gabriel's flyers because 'they had better things to do': who exactly was doing any of those better things? One guy with Rick and half a dozen training with Tara? Rick wasn't getting any of the Alexandrians involved in the important stuff that should have been going on, so why shouldn't they all at least have a bit of a community comfort while they're being ignored?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

In regards to those saying that Rick was right to tear down Gabriel's flyers because 'they had better things to do': who exactly was doing any of those better things? One guy with Rick and half a dozen training with Tara? Rick wasn't getting any of the Alexandrians involved in the important stuff that should have been going on, so why shouldn't they all at least have a bit of a community comfort while they're being ignored?

Exactly; some resent the fact Gabriel is praying at all (completepy ignoring how it saved Sasha and was of great help to Maggie), so they attack anything about the man's actions. You are right, Rick is so hell-bent on keeping the residents out of the loop (re: his conversation with Michonne), so they have time to do whatever they choose, which--as it must be said again--is not Rick's business.

All right! Glenn lives and the dumpster theory was correct.

Hopefully he will survive this new super-villain as well. Glenn has been there since the beginning, and he was the one who saved Rick in Atlanta. Killing off major characters doesn't impress me as edgy, just wasteful and childish, so I'd be happy to see them keep that to a minimum. Watching people die is the least interesting aspect of the show.

True, but its become the series gimmick: death watch. I recall the build-up to seasons 4 and 5 was not about a particular plot, but who was going to die. Tragedy for the sake of pushing maudlin scenes or just being shocking does not advance the plot. I would say Bob's death was the last one to make sense, and not be such a telegraphed "event" in the was Beth, Hershel and Tyreese's death played out.

While Tyreese's dealing with the ghosts / spirits / hallucinations of dead characters was fascinating, the reason for his death was rather unbelievable (being so caught off guard by staring at a photo?).

Now that a mid-season finale is on the horizon, the death-watch is here again. Now that Negan has been cast, here comes the death-watch again.

 

[hux]

In regards to those saying that Rick was right to tear down Gabriel's flyers because 'they had better things to do': who exactly was doing any of those better things? One guy with Rick and half a dozen training with Tara? Rick wasn't getting any of the Alexandrians involved in the important stuff that should have been going on, so why shouldn't they all at least have a bit of a community comfort while they're being ignored?

Why hasn't he spoken to the people on a one to one basis if it's about their comfort (rather than his). Alexandria isn't New York. He literally has nothing better to do so why not make some house calls or just speak to people as he helps them do whatever they are doing? The flyers are about his need for comfort and purpose, not about theirs.

Exactly; some resent the fact Gabriel is praying at all (completepy ignoring how it saved Sasha and was of great help to Maggie), so they attack anything about the man's actions.

I'm gonna assume there's a bible in your house. Gabriel is a charlatan. A vain, cowardly hypocrite whose own interests far outweigh the concerns of his flock.

 

[Scout101]

Gotta be Tara that gets the Glenn treatment, no? Her story is definitely done. Feels like it would kill all we just got dragged through (time-wise, not emotionally) if they get Glenn right after they do the nonsense tease for half the season. Unless they want to flip it and off Maggie instead...

Gabriel is just useless at this point, and think Rick has the proper contempt. Doesn't pull his weight, not really contributing, actively distracting people when he's not screwing things up (leaving gate open, rating out the group once they got to ASZ). They aren't going to kill or exile him unless he does something, but I don't think Rick would cry if he wandered off on his own. He's just a drag now, and won't get on board.

 

[Trekker4747]

Got to stick with my feelings that Rick's aim is that Gabriel's attempts to "lighten spirits" or whatever by having church services is part of trying to get these people into the right frame of mind of the world right now.

Their biggest problem is that they've been continuing on living life like nothing has changed and their biggest worry is tying to find a pasta maker.

Considering the walkers and the other groups of humans out there trying to kill them, now isn't the time to read Bible passages, sing hymns and clap your hands. Maybe once everyone is hardened, sure, but right now there's a lot of immediate threats and doing things like normal isn't going to help.

Yeah, there's a lot of times in history where humanity has been faced with challenges and prayer and religion has helped but the situation in Walking Dead is very different. Not only is the situation itself very, very different than the wars, battles and plagues in the past but we're also dealing with a society that hasn't had to deal with these terrible hardships and challenges with threats and so forth.

So, it isn't a time to pray to Magical Sky Daddy, it's time to learn how to fight and protect yourself and open your eyes to the reality of this new world. Once you're up-to-speed on the state of the world, then you go back to your fantasies.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

In regards to those saying that Rick was right to tear down Gabriel's flyers because 'they had better things to do': who exactly was doing any of those better things? One guy with Rick and half a dozen training with Tara? Rick wasn't getting any of the Alexandrians involved in the important stuff that should have been going on, so why shouldn't they all at least have a bit of a community comfort while they're being ignored?

Why hasn't he spoken to the people on a one to one basis if it's about their comfort (rather than his). Alexandria isn't New York. He literally has nothing better to do so why not make some house calls or just speak to people as he helps them do whatever they are doing? The flyers are about his need for comfort and purpose, not about theirs.

Which really doesn't matter at all. If nobody wants or needs the prayer circle then nobody shows up. If some people do want or need it and don't have anything better to do, then there is no reasonable reason why Rick should get in their way - especially not when he actually does have better things to do.

That moment was pretty much 100% about Rick's opinion of Gabriel, which is perfectly understandable and well-earned on Gabriel's part, but that doesn't mean that Rick had anything remotely approaching a good reason to publicly act that petty. It's just another example of him just barely holding himself together, not acting like a leader and generally giving the Alexandrians (and some of his own people, as well) even more reasons to doubt him. Which is sad, because his actual goals and such are the right ones, but his attitude may very well end up tearing the community apart.

 

[Ethros]

So with all these walkers invading I am hoping for at least a little slaughter next week, get rid of some of the already way too many characters.
Fingers crossed it goes a little something like #83 in the comics...

 

[hux]

Which really doesn't matter at all. If nobody wants or needs the prayer circle then nobody shows up. If some people do want or need it and don't have anything better to do, then there is no reasonable reason why Rick should get in their way - especially not when he actually does have better things to do.

They've got a zombie horde outside, missing people, unknown number of Wolves out there, weaknesses in the fence and untrained residents. Gabriel wanting to hold hands and talk about feelings is an unhelpful distraction. Rick clearly believes that regardless of his personal dislike of the guy. If Gabriel wants to provide a spiritual outlet for people then being useful and available to people would achieve that as well as earning some much needed browny points with Rick. As yet, he's shown no such character.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Gabriel is just useless at this point, and think Rick has the proper contempt. Doesn't pull his weight, not really contributing,

He's just a drag now, and won't get on board.

Wrong. In "JSS," Gabriel speaks to Carl:

Gabriel: Carl?

Carl: What?

Gabriel: You heard what I told Deanna about your group.

Carl: What do you want?

Gabriel: It was about me, not you or your group. I know that now. I want to help. You tried to teach me back at my church. But I'm ready to learn now.
I think you need to tell everybody. Yeah, I think you're right. Come by around 3:00. We'll start with the machete.

Carl: I think you need to tell everybody.

Gabriel: Yeah, I think you're right.

Carl: Come by around 3:00. We'll start with the machete.
I think you need to tell everybody. Yeah, I think you're right. Come by around 3:00. We'll start with the machete.

Carl has no problem with him up to that point, but when Gabriel asked Rick if there's anything he could do, Rick--in typically hostile fashion--says "No!"

Gabriel is trying to help in more than one way, but that will not go anywhere when you're dealing with someone consumed by hatred.

actively distracting people

His so-called "distraction" brought peace to Maggie & saved Sasha--not the hate/survivalist panting of Rick or anyone else in that group.

Got to stick with my feelings that Rick's aim is that Gabriel's attempts to "lighten spirits" or whatever by having church services is part of trying to get these people into the right frame of mind of the world right now.

Everyone sees the world is different ways; right up to the end, Hershel was not some nihilistic creature justifying an "anything goes" for the goal of defense--and he was right. He maintained his moral purpose no matter what he faced. Glenn (so far) has adopted the same world view, and he too, is a better person capable of knowing what life really means--more than most of his companions.

Considering the walkers and the other groups of humans out there trying to kill them, now isn't the time to read Bible passages, sing hymns and clap your hands. Maybe once everyone is hardened, sure, but right now there's a lot of immediate threats and doing things like normal isn't going to help.

It did not stop Hershel in season 3, as they were dealing with the Governor. He was the moral compass who (temporarily) pulled Rick back from the abyss on several occasions.

Yeah, there's a lot of times in history where humanity has been faced with challenges and prayer and religion has helped but the situation in Walking Dead is very different. Not only is the situation itself very, very different than the wars, battles and plagues in the past but we're also dealing with a society that hasn't had to deal with these terrible hardships and challenges with threats and so forth.

Death and threats are the same no matter how its delivered; right now, there are African countries ravaged by nonstop murder, kidnapping, rape, mutilation--total barbarism with no end in sight, but i've heard many profess faith getting them through situations others would just crumble under with no hope of anything. So, as you say, it has helped in history, but it does so today, with people dealing with unimaginable horror.

So, it's a time to pray to Magical Sky Daddy, it's time to learn how to fight and protect yourself and open your eyes to the reality of this new world. Once you're up-to-speed on the state of the world, then you go back to your fantasies.

Again, nihilistic behavior goes nowhere. Joe's gang, Governor / Woodbury / Governor 2.0, Randall's gang, Terminus, the Wolves, Grady Memorial--all devoid of any faith or greater purpose, which in every case led to all making their own rules, inseparable from violence, despotism, and often gruesome set of "values." More than enough series examples.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Scott Gimple (?) on "Talking Dead" also explained his rationale for doing it this way. He wanted to put viewers into the "minds" of the characters, to feel what Rick and Maggie were going through since they live in this world where when someone leaves you it could be the last time you see them and never know what happened.

If they really wanted to do that, we wouldn't have seen the obvious fakeout of Glenn's death. We just wouldn't have seen him at all. As it was, they were toying with the viewers. None of what they said on Talking Dead was any justification for that. It's shitty writing in what has otherwise been a very good season.