Awww....thanks, guys.
And yes, Gate11au, it all made perfect sense.
Best,
KMFB
And yes, Gate11au, it all made perfect sense.
Best,
KMFB
Spoilers VOY: Acts of Contrition by Kirsten Beyer Review Thread
- Thread starter Sho
- Start date
I have to correct this because it's wrong. The word fuck would never be used. The proper word is shag. My wife is Scottish so when she says you got it wrong, you got it wrong. I suggest you go and fix it.
I'm pretty sure you can't edit a post after 8 months.
That line will be there forever.
Haunting you.
I'm pretty sure you can't edit a post after 8 months.
That line will be there forever.
Haunting you.
Staff can fix things. So let's get someone from the staff to fix this very incorrect mess.
Nope - you are all just going to have to live with knowing something is wrong on the internet
I finished my re-read of Acts of Contrition today and found it still as good as the first time around. Each storyline is engaging, as are the characters, be it original main characters or additions. One of my favorite aspects is that we get to explore a brand-new culture (the Confederacy), expand on a monster-of-the-week (the protectors, also dealt with in detail in Protectors[/]), but still return to long-loved old people (Devore, Vaadwaur, Turei and Voth).
I know Voyager only explored a corridor of Delta Quadrant space, even skipping large portions but it's greatly appreciated to see those familiar and fascinating aliens again. The size of their territories and their spheres of influence also make it likely they'd be encountered again. In Star Trek Online, the Hirogen's hunting ground has extended into Romulan territory, for example.
Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to the conclusion of the story in Atonement.
I know Voyager only explored a corridor of Delta Quadrant space, even skipping large portions but it's greatly appreciated to see those familiar and fascinating aliens again. The size of their territories and their spheres of influence also make it likely they'd be encountered again. In Star Trek Online, the Hirogen's hunting ground has extended into Romulan territory, for example.
Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to the conclusion of the story in Atonement.
I just finished reading this last night and I loved it. The Confederacy was an interesting culture, and it was nice to spend a whole book with them. There seemed to be a lot of parallels with modern Earth, and it was interesting to see Starfleet members reactions to those elements of their society.
The Seven of Nine/Sharak storyline was really good too. I especially enjoyed getting to see Icheb and the Wildman's again. There were a lot of cool twists and turns here that I was not expecting. I'm not at all surprised there would be people who wanted to experiment with catoms, although the Commander and his people were definitely not going about it the right way. I was a little confused at the end though. Had Seven spent the whole storyline in the virtual world?
I've always really liked Tom Paris and I really enjoyed what was done with him here. I liked the way that this arc kind of gave us a look at some of the things he's done from a different perspective. I don't agree with his mother tried to do, but looking at it from her perspective, I can kind of understand why she did what she did.
The end twist with the Kinara made me very happy, and very curious to get my hands on Atonement. The Meegan arc has been going on for quite a while, so I was happy we got some real, solid movement on it here.
The Seven of Nine/Sharak storyline was really good too. I especially enjoyed getting to see Icheb and the Wildman's again. There were a lot of cool twists and turns here that I was not expecting. I'm not at all surprised there would be people who wanted to experiment with catoms, although the Commander and his people were definitely not going about it the right way. I was a little confused at the end though. Had Seven spent the whole storyline in the virtual world?
I've always really liked Tom Paris and I really enjoyed what was done with him here. I liked the way that this arc kind of gave us a look at some of the things he's done from a different perspective. I don't agree with his mother tried to do, but looking at it from her perspective, I can kind of understand why she did what she did.
The end twist with the Kinara made me very happy, and very curious to get my hands on Atonement. The Meegan arc has been going on for quite a while, so I was happy we got some real, solid movement on it here.
Pretty much. I suspected that pretty early on, given that she never interacted directly with any of the other viewpoint characters.
I think she was being selfish. I believe it was Vorik who had the key insight -- he said that what mattered wasn't how he felt about Tom and B'Elanna lying to him, because their decision wasn't about him. It was about what was best for Miral, and other people's hurt feelings were beside the point. Tom's mother was so caught up in "You lied to me" that she couldn't look past that and recognize that it wasn't about her. Frankly, I have no sympathy at all for her actions. I mean, heck, she came into a mediation and the first thing she did was to declare that she was totally unwilling to consider any compromise. That's rather hugely missing the whole point of mediation, and of being a member of society in general. She wouldn't tolerate any outcome that wasn't exactly what she wanted and wouldn't even listen to any other possibility. That's the mentality of a three-year-old -- or of a certain Kentucky county clerk.
I'm glad there was a good explanation for why most of the fleet consisted of groups and even individuals that Voyager had ticked off in the past, out of all the thousands of civilizations in the quadrant. It wasn't happenstance. And the revisits are alongside stories about new races like the Confederacy and such.
More belated replies, now that I've finally finished this one...
Not to diminish Kirsten's work, but isn't this an issue the Federation has been dealing with ever since they first allied with the Klingons? Originally, "Heart of Glory" indicated that the mainstream of Klingon society had renounced its warlike ways and that it was only throwbacks and renegades who wanted to return to that way of life, but after that, we were shown a Klingon society that seemed just as brutal and corrupt and destructive as TOS Klingons, leaving me wondering how it was possible to justify treating them as Federation allies. And now with the Khitomer Accords, we have the same issues with the Cardassians and the Ferengi (though they actually have reformed a great deal). I guess the difference from the treatment of the Klingon alliance is that the modern books, notably this one, are actually exploring those prickly questions of how to make such an alliance work, rather than just glossing over them.
Yeah, and Twelfth Lamont as the name of Mattings's ship. That kind of threw me. But I guess with so many alien languages out there, there would be the occasional convergences.
And a reflection of what the US is increasingly turning back into today, since so many of both Presidents Roosevelt's reforms have been systematically dismantled. But that's a discussion for another forum.
Maybe, but what he thinks is necessary is torturing people in order to create a catomic bioweapon. I don't think his regret is all that deep.
Not to diminish Kirsten's work, but isn't this an issue the Federation has been dealing with ever since they first allied with the Klingons? Originally, "Heart of Glory" indicated that the mainstream of Klingon society had renounced its warlike ways and that it was only throwbacks and renegades who wanted to return to that way of life, but after that, we were shown a Klingon society that seemed just as brutal and corrupt and destructive as TOS Klingons, leaving me wondering how it was possible to justify treating them as Federation allies. And now with the Khitomer Accords, we have the same issues with the Cardassians and the Ferengi (though they actually have reformed a great deal). I guess the difference from the treatment of the Klingon alliance is that the modern books, notably this one, are actually exploring those prickly questions of how to make such an alliance work, rather than just glossing over them.
There was one thing that was pulling me out of the story, though: quite a few Confederacy names that sounded very "earthly", like Mattings, Creak, or Hsu. I guess I expect something more exotic from aliens
Yeah, and Twelfth Lamont as the name of Mattings's ship. That kind of threw me. But I guess with so many alien languages out there, there would be the occasional convergences.
And a reflection of what the US is increasingly turning back into today, since so many of both Presidents Roosevelt's reforms have been systematically dismantled. But that's a discussion for another forum.
Maybe, but what he thinks is necessary is torturing people in order to create a catomic bioweapon. I don't think his regret is all that deep.
One thing I was confused on with this was when Seven saw the woman they were experiementing on. Did the catoms just connect her to the virtual world that Seven, Axum, and Riley were sharing?
Oh, I don't agree with what she did at all, but she had just lost her husband, and then they lied to everybody about Miral and B'Elanna dying, so I can understand her being so upset.
Being upset is understandable, but it doesn't excuse doing something so selfish and petty. After all, there are always other ways to deal with a given feeling. So dealing with it in a bad way is a choice, not an inevitability.
But how deep his regret is is a somewhat relative thing, isn't it? I think people can rationalize and justify anything to the point where they are so blinded to reality that they genuinely think they are doing the only possible thing they can do given the circumstances, when in reality they have become the very thing they are fighting. His methods are unconscionable but can we really measure the depth of his regret? I don't like the Commander. I don't agree at all with what he's doing (and Atonement only develops his story further to give a clearer picture into his actions). But if he has convinced himself that his course is the only possible course of action, he can still feel genuine regret despite the fact that he has long ago crossed the line between right and wrong. In fact, his regret may be his full motivation for doing what he's doing. Doesn't make it right. But it doesn't lessen his regret, at least in his mind.
As for Tom and Julia... Well, it's the same general idea, isn't it? Is Julia out of line? Definitely. But what's important is that she fully believes that what she's doing is the only course of action available to her. She has been through a lot. She's hurt. She's angry. And yes, I think she was genuinely concerned for Miral. Obviously, this was something very important to her. I'm sure it hurt her greatly to be against her son in that way. If I were to fully put myself in her shoes, I don't know if I could say that I wouldn't do exactly what she did. Is it wrong and childish? Yes. But we all have things that cause us to make choices that are wrong and childish. Hopefully as time passes and we learn and grow, we are less and less likely to act irrationally. But that doesn't mean we don't occasionally slip up and act impulsively. Does that mean others shouldn't try to understand where we're coming from or to sympathize with us? Does that mean there isn't some validity to our perspective? Does that mean we're past the point of no return? I hope not.
That's one of the things I loved about the Tom/B'Elanna plot of faking their deaths and lying to their friends. Once the truth came out, we saw everyone react in a variety of ways. Neelix and Chakotay were just happy that they were alive and were content to take whatever good news they could get and to move on, happy to have their friends back in their lives. Others like Harry and Julia were hurt and angry. And their responses were influenced largely by their recent experiences. Chakotay had just gone through a very dark time and had managed to find peace and start to rebuild his life. That influenced his response to their deception and allowed him to accept it and embrace his friends. Harry and Julia were coming from a different place where they hadn't really had time to grieve and mourn and process recent events. So this deception turned into the straw that broke the camel's back. They all responded based on their current position in life and the things they had learned from past experiences. Sure, ideally they all would have responded as Chakotay did. But I can understand why some of them weren't able to do that immediately. It wouldn't have been realistic for everyone to just be happy about it. Sure, Julia trying to take Miral away from Tom and B'Elanna was taking it kind of far. But I can understand why she acted the way she did and I feel she does deserve our sympathy and Tom's sympathy.
I'm not convinced. I think one has to be somewhat empathy-impaired to begin with in order to consider employing those methods in the first place, let alone to be able to continue doing so for any length of time. Some people are just sociopaths.
Hardly. Julia is just being self-centered and inconsiderate. That's hardly on a par with committing war crimes.
You can understand and sympathize with someone's feelings while still being clear on the wrongness of their actions. As I said before, the way you feel and the way you choose to act on it are two distinct matters and should be treated distinctly. You can absolutely understand and sympathize with the feelings motivating a person's choice without wavering on the certainty that it was the wrong choice.
Although in this case, I don't think Julia's feelings were all that legitimate, because she was only thinking about her own pain and disappointment and self-interest and dishonestly representing that as concern for Miral. I don't think it was sincere at all. Sure, she's in grief, but that does not constitute a free pass for bad behavior.
Fair enough. And I agree... some people are simply unfeeling and psycho and take pleasure in causing harm. It depends on the circumstances. And after reading Atonement, I think I will agree with you that The Commander crossed that line. Atonement definitely shed more light on his circumstances, his actions, and his motivations. I don't think he enjoyed torturing people. But I do think he took great pleasure in his work at the expense of others that he no longer saw as sentient beings but as expendable resources in his research. But based on the scenes in Acts of Contrition that were from his point of view, I stand by my original assessment that he seemed to genuinely feel a measure of regret by his actions.
Oh, I agree. There are many times when I absolutely disagree with someone's choices, even though I can sympathize with why they're doing it. And that's how I feel about Julia. I disagree with her choices, but I sympathize with her and I understand why she did what she did. I said what I said because you specifically stated that you did not sympathize with Julia at all. And I think that's a little harsh.
So because a person chooses to act out of selfishness (which people do on a regular basis) it makes their own feelings no longer valid or legitimate? I agree that grief does not allow one a "free pass" to act however they choose. But I do think it needs to be factored in. We allow our feelings to influence our choices. We're not Vulcans. We can't (at least I can't) always set our feelings aside and act independent of those feelings. When I feel betrayed, when I feel hurt, when I feel angry, those emotions often cause me to act irrationally, selfishly, maybe childishly at times. That doesn't make those feelings any less real. And in hindsight I tend to recognize that I overreacted and was out of line. But my feelings still mattered. And I always appreciate when those around me take the time to acknowledge my feelings. They don't give up on me or hold it against me, but they are patient with me and accepting of me and help me calm down and see reason because they understand the other things going on that have influenced my actions.
We may have to agree to disagree as far as Julia is concerned. What she did was selfish, impulsive, and hurtful. But I understand why she did it. I understand that she was in a lot of pain. She was angry. She allowed her emotions to fully influence her choices. She acted in the heat of the moment. But I also think she was convinced that she was right. And feeling that way tends to make a person rather narrow minded. Tom was irresponsible. He was going to pass his bad habits onto his daughter. She just found out her only grandchild was still alive and now in a position she considered to be unsafe. I do think she genuinely thought she was doing what was best for Miral. Yes, she could have chosen to take a deep breath, to learn the facts, to do Tom the courtesy of extending him the benefit of the doubt and trying to see things from his perspective. I think she had done that his whole life and this, combined with everything else she'd just gone through, was finally too much and she snapped. It doesn't make it right. But I think she deserves a little more understanding a flexibility and patience given the circumstances.
I am glad that Tom chose to take the "higher road" and not go storming back to the Delta Quadrant as soon as the mediation was over, vowing never to speak to his mother again. I am glad that he was willing to stand by his mother and try to smooth things over, despite the fact that he clearly disagreed with her actions.
"She thought she was right" is not an excuse. Kim Davis thinks she's right, and she's a bigoted moron who's betraying her sworn oath, terrorizing her subordinates into betraying their sworn oaths, and convincing herself that it's somehow a defense of morality. People can believe they're right, even have deeply felt convictions behind their actions, but still be total frakking jerks.
As I've said, what scuttles Julia for me is her absolute refusal to consider that she could be wrong. The first thing she did in the mediation was to reject any possibility of compromise, to establish that she wouldn't even listen to any opinion or argument that didn't give her what she wanted. That kind of absolute refusal to consider other points of view is the reason for so much strife and intolerance and conflict today. That "my way or nothing" mentality has had a toxic effect on social discourse and politics and so much else. It's just so damaging that it overrides any sympathy for the practitioner.
As I've said, what scuttles Julia for me is her absolute refusal to consider that she could be wrong. The first thing she did in the mediation was to reject any possibility of compromise, to establish that she wouldn't even listen to any opinion or argument that didn't give her what she wanted. That kind of absolute refusal to consider other points of view is the reason for so much strife and intolerance and conflict today. That "my way or nothing" mentality has had a toxic effect on social discourse and politics and so much else. It's just so damaging that it overrides any sympathy for the practitioner.
^Motion seconded.
I'm still reading through the book and am very impressed.
I will say, though, I'm getting a bit of a flashback to The Neutral Zone though. The Federation has dealt with the Cardassians (Space Nazis), Klingons (Game of Thrones w/ bat'leths), and Romulans (Maoist China) on a regular basis. They also have things like the Vulcans having death matches for mating rituals with just about every other world in its union probably having similar weirdness on one level or another. Yet the semi-21st century United States in Space really seems to make them uneasy and weirded out.
I appreciate the satire but I was taken somewhat out of the moment by thinking on that and wondering what was throwing the Federation's reps off so much. They deal with the Ferengi on a regular basis and capitalism shocks them? Surely they can and often do find cultural values utterly at odds with their own and find a way to work with them all the time. Indeed, a major part of what troubles the world today is the United States inability to relate to and deal with cultures on their own terms (and vice versa) which Star Trek has always predicted humanity advancing past.
A little strange.
Despite this, I'm incredibly impressed with the Confederacy and elements from its religion to its writing. Love the characters, their plots, how they interact, and everything else.
Really enjoyable work.
Oddly, I'm going to say I bought this book from the description in TV tropes about Tom Paris dealing with a custody battle for his children. It's strange that this "human" plot would be so attractive I'd want to read it over my newly purchased Kirk autobiography but I think stories which deal with the mundane in the fantastic have a very strong appeal. I, honestly, am one of those people who would have told Mama Paris to **** off.
In real-life, I've had to deal with situations where close family relationships suffer a betrayal of a significantly less severe kind and, honestly, they're never the same. Tom Paris has the moral fortitude of Jesus as what his mother is attempting to inflict upon him is the equivalent of what she "suffered" and is doing it for pure spite. None of her objections really take into account the pain inflicted on the child from being taken from her parents to a complete stranger, that shes loved by both, or the suffering it would be inflict on the parents. The fact the Judge was taking her insane vengeance scheme seriously does not speak well for Federation justice. I hope, if nothing else, she gets a major "The Reason you Suck" speech to shake some sense in her.
I can't wait to post the rest of my thoughts.
I will say, though, I'm getting a bit of a flashback to The Neutral Zone though. The Federation has dealt with the Cardassians (Space Nazis), Klingons (Game of Thrones w/ bat'leths), and Romulans (Maoist China) on a regular basis. They also have things like the Vulcans having death matches for mating rituals with just about every other world in its union probably having similar weirdness on one level or another. Yet the semi-21st century United States in Space really seems to make them uneasy and weirded out.
I appreciate the satire but I was taken somewhat out of the moment by thinking on that and wondering what was throwing the Federation's reps off so much. They deal with the Ferengi on a regular basis and capitalism shocks them? Surely they can and often do find cultural values utterly at odds with their own and find a way to work with them all the time. Indeed, a major part of what troubles the world today is the United States inability to relate to and deal with cultures on their own terms (and vice versa) which Star Trek has always predicted humanity advancing past.
A little strange.
Despite this, I'm incredibly impressed with the Confederacy and elements from its religion to its writing. Love the characters, their plots, how they interact, and everything else.
Really enjoyable work.
Oddly, I'm going to say I bought this book from the description in TV tropes about Tom Paris dealing with a custody battle for his children. It's strange that this "human" plot would be so attractive I'd want to read it over my newly purchased Kirk autobiography but I think stories which deal with the mundane in the fantastic have a very strong appeal. I, honestly, am one of those people who would have told Mama Paris to **** off.
In real-life, I've had to deal with situations where close family relationships suffer a betrayal of a significantly less severe kind and, honestly, they're never the same. Tom Paris has the moral fortitude of Jesus as what his mother is attempting to inflict upon him is the equivalent of what she "suffered" and is doing it for pure spite. None of her objections really take into account the pain inflicted on the child from being taken from her parents to a complete stranger, that shes loved by both, or the suffering it would be inflict on the parents. The fact the Judge was taking her insane vengeance scheme seriously does not speak well for Federation justice. I hope, if nothing else, she gets a major "The Reason you Suck" speech to shake some sense in her.
I can't wait to post the rest of my thoughts.
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