Axanar dropped a plot spoiler about a month ago
- Thread starter Phantom
- Start date
Star Trek: Of God and men has 1.8 million views
Well - damn! It must be canon.
Ares Studios - by all appearances does seem to be designed to cater to smaller productions, including fan productions. That's not a bad thing, and I am sure that many, many Star Trek fans would openly support an effort to create a "home base" for people to work on their pet projects (well those who live close enough to the studio anyway).
I wouldn't even object to a fundraiser specifically for that purpose. But that is not how Axanar is selling their project. They are selling the dream of a "true Trek" made by people who 'actually love Trek', etc. etc.
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All valid points I glossed over. Thanks for filling in the blanks, Harvey.
One True Trek!
Seriously though, that just shows the mindset of this. If the latest incarnation of Trek can pull in 27.3 million tickets domestically, and most fan films on average probably don't bring in 500,000 viewers, how can you even take any of these claims that come from the Axanar creators and fan base seriously? It's just delusional at best to think that Axanar or any other fan or independently produced project can even hope to compare with what Bad Robot is doing. And I think that's my sticking point -- I just don't understand why these people would even consider the claims when the truth is right there. I'm not saying they have to like JJ Trek. I'm not saying they have to put down Axanar. I'm just saying maybe it's time for people to accept the fact that while Axanar may be amazing and what they've done so far is pretty remarkable, it will never bring in the crowd that the last two films, hell, probably even Nemesis did. And that's okay.
Ooohhhh-kay.
"Occasionally."
Hoo boy.
Tell you what, I'll come back to that. Let's start on a point of agreement:
Tom's method of dealing with criticism -- even of the low-blow and unwarranted kind -- is indeed praiseworthy. There is nary a fan production that couldn't stand to learn a lesson from that, including Axanar.
That's a point of agreement. Unfortunately it's a largely trivial one. The fact also remains that most of the people in the criticism ring are growned-assed adults who are presumed to have the ability to put things in perspective, and that Axanar isn't obligated to just sit still and listen to harangues. If it's a big deal to you that they won't, if you don't like that they won't, that's your business. But it's not of the general interest you might think it is... particularly in context of what some of the "criticism" has really consisted of.
I'll come back to that, too.
There's a lot to unpack here, but one thing I think is praiseworthy is that this post dispenses with all any mealy-mouthed nonsense about being "open-minded" and genuinely interested in Axanar and just comes out and says what's underneath:
1) That the poster believes Axanerds -- [EDIT for clarity: or at minimum their core constituency] -- are a niche of deluded sheeple who through their undying hatred of nuTrek are being fleeced by the Axanar team for the benefit of their careers;
2) That the Axanar team have somehow pursued this as a carefully-hidden agenda that they've been fooling these fans about, all while "stringing them along" with false promises and being "unresponsive to their donors";
3) That the "us versus them" wedge attitude comes from the Axanar team and is primarily to be blamed on them.
4) The overriding concern in all these points being this above all, that the Axanar team are bad people and if you are interested in their product you are being exploited and we should all be very concerned about this.
To take these in order:
Bottom line: I would be happy to sign off a manifesto that declares from the rooftops for all to hear that:
Axanar is not the Second Coming of the True Trek and nobody should be donating to it in the belief that it is. I recognize this and affirm it as a Trek fan who bears no ill-will to other forms of Trek fan.
But it would also have to carry the clause:
Axanerds are not a mass of deluded sheeple who need me as their bold champion to rescue them from the blandishments of the Evil One. They are not obligated to gave any f***s at all what I personally think about the team or its members. Such personal ill-will as I bear the team's members has zilch to do with the credibility of their product or their enterprise; I recognize this and will not waste anyone's time pretending otherwise.
I can manage the first paragraph perfectly easily. If you can manage the second, then it's all good.
"Occasionally."
Hoo boy.
Tell you what, I'll come back to that. Let's start on a point of agreement:
Tom's method of dealing with criticism -- even of the low-blow and unwarranted kind -- is indeed praiseworthy. There is nary a fan production that couldn't stand to learn a lesson from that, including Axanar.
That's a point of agreement. Unfortunately it's a largely trivial one. The fact also remains that most of the people in the criticism ring are growned-assed adults who are presumed to have the ability to put things in perspective, and that Axanar isn't obligated to just sit still and listen to harangues. If it's a big deal to you that they won't, if you don't like that they won't, that's your business. But it's not of the general interest you might think it is... particularly in context of what some of the "criticism" has really consisted of.
I'll come back to that, too.
There's a lot to unpack here, but one thing I think is praiseworthy is that this post dispenses with all any mealy-mouthed nonsense about being "open-minded" and genuinely interested in Axanar and just comes out and says what's underneath:
1) That the poster believes Axanerds -- [EDIT for clarity: or at minimum their core constituency] -- are a niche of deluded sheeple who through their undying hatred of nuTrek are being fleeced by the Axanar team for the benefit of their careers;
2) That the Axanar team have somehow pursued this as a carefully-hidden agenda that they've been fooling these fans about, all while "stringing them along" with false promises and being "unresponsive to their donors";
3) That the "us versus them" wedge attitude comes from the Axanar team and is primarily to be blamed on them.
4) The overriding concern in all these points being this above all, that the Axanar team are bad people and if you are interested in their product you are being exploited and we should all be very concerned about this.
To take these in order:
One key thing your rant misses is that if Axanar fans were actually an undifferentiated horde of deluded sheeple waiting for the PetersChrist to sweep aside the scourge of NuTrek... none of the prevarication you allege would be necessary. Precisely the reason that the Axanar team could *not* portray itself as sweeping aside the scourge of NuTrek and catering exclusively to the maddest hatters of the haters is that many of their fans are NuTrek fans. It is rather uncharacteristically sloppy of you not to have noticed this, but it's a fact. It's actually part of why the Axanar groups on big ol' Facebook look perhaps paradoxically a lot saner than other groups which tend to consist of dogfights between factions of fandom -- what Axanerds represent is a cross-section of fandom, NuTrek and not, interested in a product who by that common interest are forced to get along.
(Needless to say, announcing yourself to this cross-section of fans as someone who has a cartoonish, deluded and obnoxiously condescending view of them isn't likely to help you get your point across.)
All of that said, certainly the intensely anti-NuTrek fans who are prone to calling Axanar "a movement" are out there. There is no mistaking that the production doesn't avoid them and does present itself as offering them an alternative vision of Trek more in line with what they're used to. This of course, since we're all adults with growned-up attitudes who aren't about being butthurt at the mere possibility that something could be made for a market or niche that we don't agree with, should not of itself be eating at anyone. Right?
Wrong. It plainly does.
(Needless to say, announcing yourself to this cross-section of fans as someone who has a cartoonish, deluded and obnoxiously condescending view of them isn't likely to help you get your point across.)
All of that said, certainly the intensely anti-NuTrek fans who are prone to calling Axanar "a movement" are out there. There is no mistaking that the production doesn't avoid them and does present itself as offering them an alternative vision of Trek more in line with what they're used to. This of course, since we're all adults with growned-up attitudes who aren't about being butthurt at the mere possibility that something could be made for a market or niche that we don't agree with, should not of itself be eating at anyone. Right?
Wrong. It plainly does.
One thing that has sabotaged the credibility of a lot of anti-Axanar criticism has been the tendency to fulminate about such-and-such as being supposedly secretive or a surprise when it is no such thing. As Campe98 pointed out correctly, the Axanar team aren't cleverly slipping their career-advancement goals by anyone. They've been openly stated for a long time. (And trying to stuff words in other people's mouths about "innocent little lambs" and other such things also does not work. It's silliness. You don't have to see anyone as an "innocent little lamb" to call misstatements and misrepresentations what they are.)
As for the supposed revelation that Axanar are capitalizing on an opportunity... um, no shit, Sherlock. That is called Show Business. That this is supposed to represent some form of perfidy is frankly a bit laughable and I'm surprised at you. Of course they're "exploiting" the fans to get support and career advancement as the fans are "exploiting" their labour to get a product we want. That is at its most basic level how show business works.
(The notion that Axanar is "unresponsive to donors" is so bizarrely at variance with Axanar's actual behaviour that I don't know what to do with it. Bill's attempt to attack along the "they're spending too much time trying to appeal to their fanbase" salient at least loosely fits the facts, tendentious though it otherwise is.
As for the supposed revelation that Axanar are capitalizing on an opportunity... um, no shit, Sherlock. That is called Show Business. That this is supposed to represent some form of perfidy is frankly a bit laughable and I'm surprised at you. Of course they're "exploiting" the fans to get support and career advancement as the fans are "exploiting" their labour to get a product we want. That is at its most basic level how show business works.
(The notion that Axanar is "unresponsive to donors" is so bizarrely at variance with Axanar's actual behaviour that I don't know what to do with it. Bill's attempt to attack along the "they're spending too much time trying to appeal to their fanbase" salient at least loosely fits the facts, tendentious though it otherwise is.
3) The Axanar team have not, to be sure, done everything they could to dispel the role of Axanar as a "wedge" in fandom. Their responses have been flawed, Peters in particular has done stupid and hotheaded things on more than one occasion, that deserves to be recognized.
But I am not for a second buying this notion that they're primarily responsible for the toxicity. People who've been out there relentlessly banging the drum about evidently false and empty concerns about team Axanar's supposed propensity for fraud, for example -- or who have enabled others to bang that drum and promoted and linked their doing so -- have to be wiling to face up to their share of responsibility if we're "getting real" and "manning up." And theirs is a *large* share of that responsibility. I don't actually think that's going to *happen,* of course, but it *should* happen if one wants to actually lance the boil.
But I am not for a second buying this notion that they're primarily responsible for the toxicity. People who've been out there relentlessly banging the drum about evidently false and empty concerns about team Axanar's supposed propensity for fraud, for example -- or who have enabled others to bang that drum and promoted and linked their doing so -- have to be wiling to face up to their share of responsibility if we're "getting real" and "manning up." And theirs is a *large* share of that responsibility. I don't actually think that's going to *happen,* of course, but it *should* happen if one wants to actually lance the boil.
4) It's really no never mind to me what your or anyone else's opinion of a film producing team as people is. You're of course entitled to that opinion; if you find Peters and company slimy and arrogant, you go ahead and do that. I don't carry any particular personal brief for any of them. But you're deluding yourself if you think much of the world is going to care, any more than the world is obligated to care what you or I or anyone else think of Vic Mignogna or J.J. Abrams or Justin Lin or Dennis Bailey as people.
The simple fact is that most people care about the product, wherein the product is something that looks interesting and fun. And they are -- or at least I am -- much likelier to respect people who are actually producing it and putting themselves on the line than they are to respect people sniping from the sidelines about how They Don't Like Axanar's Donor Relations Technique. If it was or should be of any real interest to people the level-of-nobility of the creators' motives, no such thing as Trek fandom would exist in the first place and we presumably all know that.
Perhaps more importantly, nothing brings out the worst in people like turning a disagreement over the content someone is producing into a quest to prove they are a bad person. It can veer into variously creepy, self-destructive and all-around-unfortunate territory all too easily. This brand of hostility, visibly the whole foundation for the more outsized forms of anti-Axanar hostility routinely seen here, has IMO somewhat tarnished a lot of the people who have been trying to pass it off for some time as concern over more defensible issues like fiduciary responsibility or the CBS-lawyers-that-someone-is-always-SHOCKED-haven't-intervened.
The simple fact is that most people care about the product, wherein the product is something that looks interesting and fun. And they are -- or at least I am -- much likelier to respect people who are actually producing it and putting themselves on the line than they are to respect people sniping from the sidelines about how They Don't Like Axanar's Donor Relations Technique. If it was or should be of any real interest to people the level-of-nobility of the creators' motives, no such thing as Trek fandom would exist in the first place and we presumably all know that.
Perhaps more importantly, nothing brings out the worst in people like turning a disagreement over the content someone is producing into a quest to prove they are a bad person. It can veer into variously creepy, self-destructive and all-around-unfortunate territory all too easily. This brand of hostility, visibly the whole foundation for the more outsized forms of anti-Axanar hostility routinely seen here, has IMO somewhat tarnished a lot of the people who have been trying to pass it off for some time as concern over more defensible issues like fiduciary responsibility or the CBS-lawyers-that-someone-is-always-SHOCKED-haven't-intervened.
Bottom line: I would be happy to sign off a manifesto that declares from the rooftops for all to hear that:
Axanar is not the Second Coming of the True Trek and nobody should be donating to it in the belief that it is. I recognize this and affirm it as a Trek fan who bears no ill-will to other forms of Trek fan.
But it would also have to carry the clause:
Axanerds are not a mass of deluded sheeple who need me as their bold champion to rescue them from the blandishments of the Evil One. They are not obligated to gave any f***s at all what I personally think about the team or its members. Such personal ill-will as I bear the team's members has zilch to do with the credibility of their product or their enterprise; I recognize this and will not waste anyone's time pretending otherwise.
I can manage the first paragraph perfectly easily. If you can manage the second, then it's all good.
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To give a little perspective to the Hannibal comment.
Axanar has 60,000 followers on twitter while Hannibal has 197,000 followers.
On Facebook Axanar has 64,000 likes while Hannibal has 1.8 million likes.
Neil
Axanar has 60,000 followers on twitter while Hannibal has 197,000 followers.
On Facebook Axanar has 64,000 likes while Hannibal has 1.8 million likes.
Neil
YouTube statistics are slippery, because what "views" means doesn't necessarily translate to individual viewers actually watching the whole thing. Unless you have access to the analytics pages, you don't know what percentage are unique views, what the audience retention is (how much of the show, on average, do people watch, etc.). Lots of people may find and start watching a video, but what percentage watch a significant portion or all of it is another thing entirely.
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*raises eyebrow
Fascinating.
- to BigJake
First, I will clear away a bone of contention. I do not, nor have I ever claimed that Axanar fans are easily led and credulous fanatics. I purposely and deliberately included qualifiers that perhaps the red film of rage caused you to miss.
I strongly believe that the vast majority of those who contributed are simply the same people who would willingly contribute (and most likely have) to the other fan projects that are to be found on Indigogo and Kickstarter, etc. They aren't idiots, just people with a few extra bucks who would - if the law allowed - pony up their money at an Axanar booth and buy the DVD, the trinkets, what have you.
In short most Axanerds (a term I never knew existed) are normal Trek fans - a point I strenuously made.
Second, you and I have a far different view of how Axanar has presented itself, and we have a different opinion of what exploiting an opportunity. Some of that seems to come from the fact that you seem to have a fairly deep level of involvement in being a fan of Axanar, as well as many battle scars from arguments on this subject - while I have a limited involvement and exposure. That's to be expected.
Finally lets skip the paragraphs of intense vitriol that seem to have been incited by a mistaken belief that my post was painting all fans of Axanar with the same brush.
Let's talk about the actual product - which is the parameter you have chosen.
What product is Axanar "selling", and what claims are they making about their product?
The official word from Axanar is they are selling a feature length film that and to produce that film they need funds to pay their people, develop a working studio, and accrue other associated costs. All well and good. They also produced a "preview" of sorts, that is well made and interesting in a Ken Burns sort of way. They also have made a sort of audition tape that shows how they can operate. Also well and good.
However, since the initial outpouring of support was better than expected, things have gone a little off the rails.
For instance - money. I am not inclined to give everyone a free pass on money, nor am I inclined to require a certain level of investment before being allowed to comment on the authenticity and reliability of an investment or purchase.
A company asks me to invest in a product, then they announce that the product has been delayed because they want to make it - according to them - better, then they announce that the product will be delayed because they decided to take the money given to build the product and invested in a factory that will be used to make other products. Then they tell me that unless their new funding goals are met the product will be made in pieces, with the final pieces not delivered until their new funding goals are completely met. So I have a choice - either give even more money to the producers or wait and wait and wait until something is made that fits their idea of what the end product should be - oh and wait until their factory also meets their specifications. In addition, I have clear information that indicates that they most likely will use my investment to expand their company, and create an entirely new business based out of the factory, that may or may not make products that I am actually interested in or want.
Now would you buy that product - or would you ask for your money back?
"Sure I would buy it" - you might say - "If I either believed in it, or didn't care all that much."
Ok - I can understand that some people don't care all that much, and that their level of investment was so low that they would have spent that money on McDonald's or beer anyway, so who gives a Shatner?
But, there are more than a few Axanar fans that BELIEVE in the product - they believe that this film will be worth the money, and worth the wait. Those are the fans that have to be coddled, maintained, and supported by the production team. They must be kept at all costs, or else the lofty goals (including the new "factory" ) never be achieved.
So how do you maintain that belief? Well first you have to present your product as worthy of trust, as something "special", unique and interesting.
Second, you need to identify what makes the believers tick, what makes them work, what they want.
Third, you have to wall off the believers from everyone else, and you have to make them feel that they are on the right track, and that those who doubt the production are deficient in some way or just not special enough.
This pattern of customer grooming is present all over the world of sales - from new homes to automobiles, to soda pop. I have always found it distasteful and irritating, and I continue to do so. It generates immense profits in the world of business, and is very effective, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth every time.
Make a product that everyone is willing to buy, don't create a customer that is willing to buy anything you sell them.
The Axanar production team has - as time has gone on - allowed the latter to exist and thrive, and has done little to discourage its existence. I find that distasteful and coupled with their ever expanding goals and needs, has soured me on any product they create.
On a separate note: I am fully and completely content with the current state of Trek, and I don't need an "alternative", especially one that has adopted many of the story and visual cues of nuTrek while ostensibly claiming to be "true" Trek.
I would already be considered a "hard sell" whilst I believe you my friend are not a big fan of nuTrek, and therefore would be a "soft sell." That divide does impact our opinion, I am sure.
So just to recap:
I don't have to pass a litmus test to comment - positively or negatively
I don't think that all Axanar fans are sheeple or credulous idiots.
I don't think that the product Axanar is selling matches what is in the box, and I don't agree with their sales pitch.
I do feel their goals do not entirely or even mostly match their stated intentions, and I find that distasteful.
I do not appreciate the "us vs the world" attitude that has been developed by some of the Axanar team and subsequently adopted by some of their fans.
On to the next round....
Fascinating.
- to BigJake
First, I will clear away a bone of contention. I do not, nor have I ever claimed that Axanar fans are easily led and credulous fanatics. I purposely and deliberately included qualifiers that perhaps the red film of rage caused you to miss.
I strongly believe that the vast majority of those who contributed are simply the same people who would willingly contribute (and most likely have) to the other fan projects that are to be found on Indigogo and Kickstarter, etc. They aren't idiots, just people with a few extra bucks who would - if the law allowed - pony up their money at an Axanar booth and buy the DVD, the trinkets, what have you.
In short most Axanerds (a term I never knew existed) are normal Trek fans - a point I strenuously made.
Second, you and I have a far different view of how Axanar has presented itself, and we have a different opinion of what exploiting an opportunity. Some of that seems to come from the fact that you seem to have a fairly deep level of involvement in being a fan of Axanar, as well as many battle scars from arguments on this subject - while I have a limited involvement and exposure. That's to be expected.
Finally lets skip the paragraphs of intense vitriol that seem to have been incited by a mistaken belief that my post was painting all fans of Axanar with the same brush.
Let's talk about the actual product - which is the parameter you have chosen.
What product is Axanar "selling", and what claims are they making about their product?
The official word from Axanar is they are selling a feature length film that and to produce that film they need funds to pay their people, develop a working studio, and accrue other associated costs. All well and good. They also produced a "preview" of sorts, that is well made and interesting in a Ken Burns sort of way. They also have made a sort of audition tape that shows how they can operate. Also well and good.
However, since the initial outpouring of support was better than expected, things have gone a little off the rails.
For instance - money. I am not inclined to give everyone a free pass on money, nor am I inclined to require a certain level of investment before being allowed to comment on the authenticity and reliability of an investment or purchase.
A company asks me to invest in a product, then they announce that the product has been delayed because they want to make it - according to them - better, then they announce that the product will be delayed because they decided to take the money given to build the product and invested in a factory that will be used to make other products. Then they tell me that unless their new funding goals are met the product will be made in pieces, with the final pieces not delivered until their new funding goals are completely met. So I have a choice - either give even more money to the producers or wait and wait and wait until something is made that fits their idea of what the end product should be - oh and wait until their factory also meets their specifications. In addition, I have clear information that indicates that they most likely will use my investment to expand their company, and create an entirely new business based out of the factory, that may or may not make products that I am actually interested in or want.
Now would you buy that product - or would you ask for your money back?
"Sure I would buy it" - you might say - "If I either believed in it, or didn't care all that much."
Ok - I can understand that some people don't care all that much, and that their level of investment was so low that they would have spent that money on McDonald's or beer anyway, so who gives a Shatner?
But, there are more than a few Axanar fans that BELIEVE in the product - they believe that this film will be worth the money, and worth the wait. Those are the fans that have to be coddled, maintained, and supported by the production team. They must be kept at all costs, or else the lofty goals (including the new "factory" ) never be achieved.
So how do you maintain that belief? Well first you have to present your product as worthy of trust, as something "special", unique and interesting.
Second, you need to identify what makes the believers tick, what makes them work, what they want.
Third, you have to wall off the believers from everyone else, and you have to make them feel that they are on the right track, and that those who doubt the production are deficient in some way or just not special enough.
This pattern of customer grooming is present all over the world of sales - from new homes to automobiles, to soda pop. I have always found it distasteful and irritating, and I continue to do so. It generates immense profits in the world of business, and is very effective, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth every time.
Make a product that everyone is willing to buy, don't create a customer that is willing to buy anything you sell them.
The Axanar production team has - as time has gone on - allowed the latter to exist and thrive, and has done little to discourage its existence. I find that distasteful and coupled with their ever expanding goals and needs, has soured me on any product they create.
On a separate note: I am fully and completely content with the current state of Trek, and I don't need an "alternative", especially one that has adopted many of the story and visual cues of nuTrek while ostensibly claiming to be "true" Trek.
I would already be considered a "hard sell" whilst I believe you my friend are not a big fan of nuTrek, and therefore would be a "soft sell." That divide does impact our opinion, I am sure.
So just to recap:
I don't have to pass a litmus test to comment - positively or negatively
I don't think that all Axanar fans are sheeple or credulous idiots.
I don't think that the product Axanar is selling matches what is in the box, and I don't agree with their sales pitch.
I do feel their goals do not entirely or even mostly match their stated intentions, and I find that distasteful.
I do not appreciate the "us vs the world" attitude that has been developed by some of the Axanar team and subsequently adopted by some of their fans.
On to the next round....
I like what I've seen from Axanar and that is why I support it. I couldn't care less who hates who or whatever. I just want to see the film and I'm willing to contribute.
I also happen to know and like a number of the people involved. That others don't is of no concern to me.
I also happen to know and like a number of the people involved. That others don't is of no concern to me.
Sorry, just "the most loyal" ones. Which is still kind of nonsense and for exactly the same reason as any broader brush would have been, I was actually just giving you credit for being able to connect those particular dots on your own.
If reading the occasional thread on their Facebook group, poking around their website and having a declining patience with nonsense on TrekBBS constitute a "deep level of involvement," I guess. :shrugs:
But look, if you want to know why I'm a such a skeptic about the skeptics, let's have a look at an example:
There's waaayyy too much fulminating-about-Axanar that goes on that is at best, shall we say, casual in its interest in the actual facts. This recently-propagated notion that Axanar has massively changed all its timelines without warning anybody and misrepresented itself in its July 2014 Kickstarter is one in a long, long, long series of these behaviours.
You would not know, to look at your account of events above, that the original campaign actually explicitly mentioned setting up and renovating a sound stage, contained phrases like "I would expect the budget to climb" and had a specific segment titled "Risks and Challenges" that talked about unforeseen obstacles and changes that can arise, presumably impacting timelines. You wouldn't know it to hear SuperSpaceMan talk about his forlorn and betrayed fifteen dollars, either. But lo and behold, look at the campaign page and there it is. If it hadn't been a part of that campaign, the account above would make sense; but it doesn't.
That's a problem for me.
Now, I know that you're not of the long-term dedicated partisans who just hate Alec Peters and will say anything to support that agenda. But I do prefer that people make at least a cursory effort to check stuff like that. And I'm really just sick of that sloppy attitude as regards Axanar. It drives down the signal-to-noise ratio and wastes everybody's time and adds toxicity where Christ knows we don't need it. And similar things have been going on for far too long, where it's basically like every time I see one of these fulminating criticisms of Axanar on here, I go and try to check the associated facts and find lo and behold, again and again and again, there is no there there or it's a question of hearsay or tendentious and questionable interpretation of some stray phrase in a comments thread or podcast, or at best there's a trivial issue being blown up into a vast claim of perfidy and shadiness.
I lose patience with that kind of thing within about a half-dozen instances at best. That's just the kind of person I am, and that's really what my "battle scars" are as this production goes. When it's a pattern playing out over months and years... by now, suffice to say this shit has dug a credibility hole with me that's hitting mantle. The whole Renegades-is-finished-now-where's-Axanar-huh? routine of the most recent vintage is echoing from inside that chasm. And I really just can't be arsed to give any of it the time of day at all, much less get past it to the larger claims being made about Team Axanar's supposed amorality which I'm supposed to give a shit about for some reason.
Of course something radical could happen that could change my mind about that. But it would have to be radical at this point, not "OH NOES ANOTHER MONTH HAS PASSED AND AXANAR STILL HASN'T ADVANCED THEIR FILMING SCHEDULE AND MADE A PERSONAL GENUFLECTION TO SUPERSPACEMAN." Just. F**king. No. Just no.
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How much did you donate?
Since there are a lot of conflicting claims about what Axanar has and hasn't promised, I'll just point out that you can see snapshots of their Kickstarter campaign via Archive.org's Wayback Machine (link).
Looks like everything I mentioned applies to the earliest archive save the parenthetical about possible increase in budget, which was added sometime between the August and October archives. Thank you Maurice.
(Oh, and for Jedi_Master, just so that I'm clear: acerbic or exasperated as I might sound above, I'm honestly not that mad at you. This stuff is really more in the league of a Pet Peeve for me about not wanting to have to wade through certain kinds of content on a thread as anything else. Whether we see eye to eye about that or not, the Schwartz remains strong with you in my eyes. Promise.)
(Oh, and for Jedi_Master, just so that I'm clear: acerbic or exasperated as I might sound above, I'm honestly not that mad at you. This stuff is really more in the league of a Pet Peeve for me about not wanting to have to wade through certain kinds of content on a thread as anything else. Whether we see eye to eye about that or not, the Schwartz remains strong with you in my eyes. Promise.)
Let me be clear, I have been very upfront about my donation from the very beginning. I never had any obligation to tell anyone how much I donated, but I did, for transparency sake.
There have been several occasions where I included the link to the Prelude Kickstarter, the Axanar Kickstarter and the Axanar annual report. I believe I was the very first to post all three, so Again, I have been Citing these sources from the beginning.
I forgot about the Hero's of Axanar vignettes (That was on the Kickstarter when I donated) I also forgot that they didn't include the fee extensions on their budget items.
The other thing is, their yearly facility rental went from 78K on the first instance on the wayback machine to 180K on the accounting...
They got a lot of money, and spent it, and now are going back to donors asking for more....
$75.00 so far. I'd have donated more, but I wound up in the emergency room and my health insurance company is refusing to pay. According to Blue Cross Blue Shield, a bleeding liver from an accident severe enough that they were taking medical classes to see my problem since doctors who had been in the emergency room for over 15 years never seen bleeding that bad in somebody who is not on blood thinners. BCBS says this is not a medical problem that requires a doctor's care. With a potential $25,000 bill staring me in the face, I didn't give more.
Back to Axanar. I'm not expecting it to be the equal of my favorite Pro Trek. Nor am I expecting it to be WEAT or TTI or Aurora, all of which ARE IMHO, the equal of my favorite Pro Trek. I just hope its something I will enjoy. If I like it as much as I like Star Trek: Intrepid, I'll be content.
Also to be clear, I get to interact on the net with a lot of those producing fan films thanks to my fan film indexing website, Star Trek Reviewed. It is my evaluation that Alec Peters is incapable of the nefarious secret behavior some of you are attributing to him. I have participated in non-Trek internet groups with him, and as much as you can get to know somebody on the net, yes, I feel like I know him. He's pretty WYSIWYG. I felt he got too excited by the size of the donations he got in the Kickstarters but he gets excited. That's him. He genuinely wants to give people something wonderful. Will he screw it up? Maybe, but it will be a screw up not a plan.
My family includes a lot of inventors and engineers. My father was named as the 'inventor' on the patent which was the basis of the first production fax machine, for example. (If you are too young to know what a fax machine is, ask you parents.) When you are producing something new yes, there are twists and turns and things have to be revised as you go. It's pretty normal to need more money than you expected to get something to the public. YAWN.
Maybe, when your soliciting donations from the public, and your production budget more than doubles, you explain the facts with contrition, rather than going all ballistic when people ask about it.
I expected a better explanation on why the budget doubled, and I didn't get it. I am a dissatisfied customer, and there is no real way for my dissatisfaction to be made whole..
Of course if they did this, the line would be: "Man, those Axanar guys are full of themselves. They can't even be bothered to communicate with their donors. How hard would it be to set up a regular podcast?"
This.
On another note, I'm wondering how much longer this thread will be open. Of course the majority of the action is Axanar/Peters/ect bashing, so it may stay open for quite awhile.
We've seen what happens though when Axanar's more vocal defenders step up...
Pardon my cynicism...
No one's been bashed. We're sitting here having a discussion.
When exactly did people get so thin skinned?
Gee, Bill, I dunno...back around the time I was told my opinion about the FX of Axanar vs JJ's movies was "easily dismissed" because I wasn't an industry professional? Then I got Mod hammered for taking offence at the statement?
I don't recall seeing a mod in several pages at a minimum asking for a "back on topic"...but 90% of those pages have been doubts/questions/bashes of Axanar.
*EDIT* Oh, and just keep reading down the thread from the post I'm quoting here...looks like the bashing hits high gear.
WAY more apples/oranges comparing a YouTube fan released fan project to a major studio motion picture...
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So posting statistical data is bashing?
This is actually an important point, from the POV of writers - and a prime reason that unions and contracts matter in the entertainment industry.
I think this is a fair question that should be forwarded to Alec Peters.
