Will Riker refusing own command

[BillJ]

The age-old cry of defenders of lazy and/or inept writing.

You can think whatever you want/like/need. For me, and me alone, I separate entertainment from the real world. I don't expect my entertainment to reflect the real world. I just don't, sorry.

If I wanted entertainment to reflect the real world, I would just skip it and look out the window or turn on one of the dozens of news outlets I have. I could then skip giving movie theaters $30 every other week.

 

[Phantom]

The age-old cry of defenders of lazy and/or inept writing.

You can think whatever you want/like/need. For me, and me alone, I separate entertainment from the real world. I don't expect my entertainment to reflect the real world. I just don't, sorry.

So your suspension of disbelief is absolute. No matter how improbable, bizzare, or even just plain wrong, it's all good...it's just a movie?

Uncritical acceptance of poor material is why the PTB felt the need to do a reboot in the first place.

If I wanted entertainment to reflect the real world, I would just skip it and look out the window or turn on one of the dozens of news outlets I have.

Well I for one (of many) don't want to see Trek pulled down to the level of the lowest common denominator.

Are you suggesting you wouldn't watch a smartly-written Trek that didn't ask you to believe 40 impossible things that it didn't need to with just a touch more creative care?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I never understood why the writers kept bringing it up. What was their thinking? Frakes obviously wasn't leaving so why keep bringing up the fact that Riker is turning down promotions? Of course he is; if he doesn't then he's not on the frikking show anymore!

Were they trying to suggest that being number two on the Enterprise was so amazing that nobody would ever want to leave or were some of the writers being dickish and trying to give Frakes a hint or something?

What was the point?

Honestly I think thats the main reason this is an issue with people, if they never brought up Riker turning down commands nobody would probably care that he stuck around for 15 years.

 

[BillJ]

Are you suggesting you wouldn't watch a smartly-written Trek that didn't ask you to believe 40 impossible things that it didn't need to with just a touch more creative care?

I've watched every Star Trek episode and movie ever made. I'll give anything a chance. But the reason I started to sour on (and now rarely revisit) the Berman material was because it was so damned dull and uninspiring.

They sucked the fun out of Star Trek.

When I go to a movie, watch TV, I want to have fun with the experience. Making Kirk a broken Lt. Commander that was brought back to Starfleet would've likely decreased the fun factor. Sorry. Watching a Kirk that was the essence of a young man (I have an 18-year old son) that thinks they know everything is entertaining to watch. I don't think following Navy standards is a secret recipe for fun.

Guess I'm just one of the drooling masses.

 

[BillJ]

At the end of the day, I saw Star Trek (2009) four times at the theater. Went with the wife, we had a blast. Took my mother-in-law, she had a blast. Took my two boys, we had a blast. Went by myself, had a blast. I've easily seen it another half-dozen times on Blu-ray, had a blast every time. It is wildly entertaining.

What more do I need from a movie?

 

[Bagofmostlywatr]

It is absurdity on the level of putting a 16 year old who just got his conditional license behind the wheel of a Formula 1 or NASCAR racer and expecting him to compete for a Cup and not kill himself (and possibly a bunch of other drivers) in the process.

Max verstappen? Ah, wait, he was 17 when he was first on the grid, nevermind.

 

[Ithekro]

In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, it is probably not that unlikely a captain would let the Cabin Boy man the helm at 15 or 16, as he'd have been there for three or four years already.

 

[Mage]

I wonder how quickly a modern naval commander would be drummed out of the service if he allowed a fifteen-year old to steer his ship regularly? (ST:TNG)

I think a lot of people would agree having that was a mistake, I definitely feel it significantly reduced the believability.

There's that word again. Believability. I have accepted a show where hundreds of different species make up an intragalactic government, working together and overcoming differences that, in all likelyhood, seem impossible to overcome. They fly around starships capable of speeds we can only theorize about. Communications between species of life that have completely different ways of communication is possible, and the moleculair breakdown of a person and then recombining them is possible.

If there's a 16 year old wunderkind, with highly developed mental faculties, capable of piloting a starship and be a real asset to the ship and crew, I'm not gonna worry about believability. I see that happening a lot sooner then starships capable of FTL. I mean, there's plenty of very young teenagers attending universities because they are capable.
So there are actually more real life examples of youngster doing things most of their age are not capable of, than there are starships flying in the intragalactic void.


Oh, and for those wondering, google the word 'intragalactic'. It is the proper word here, instead of intergalactic.

 

[Kilana2]

Wesley, having not yet attended SF Academy, receiving a rank aboard Enterprise (even though honorably) is odd, considering the fact that Harry Kim remained Ensign during Voyager's run. The reason was: someone had to be Ensign. Period.
I have no problems with Wesley piloting the ship in standard situations. He should have been relieved in times of crises.

Back to Riker: his experience aboard Enterprise counts for something.

Spoiler: Titan novels

Riker becomes obviously sooner Admiral than Picard, although I haven't read the new TNG novels yet. I'd like to know how Riker deals with his promotion.

 

[Phantom]

In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, it is probably not that unlikely a captain would let the Cabin Boy man the helm at 15 or 16, as he'd have been there for three or four years already.

And training training training at every opportunity when not performing his assigned duties.

Same in the Navy today. If you're not on watch, or performing off-watch duties like ship cleaning/maintenance, you're training for your next certificate or qualification.

That 15 year old cabin boy from the age of sail had more practical experience than JJ Kirk in the first movie.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I once enjoyed a number one for a long time (too many lagers).

Why command a nothing ship charting a bland little nebula for three weeks when you can be second in command of the Enterprise (which is involved in significantly more interesting adventures due to its status as the flagship). Riker knew he'd be captain one day so what did it matter that it was put off?

I totally get his decision and what's more, I think his decision actually showed more ambition not less.

I disagree. The thing is Rikers first command was supposed to be a small vessel. Picard commanded the stargazer for petes sakes. Riker waited to long and he became a captain in his early 50s when he could have been a dynamic captain in his 30s like Kirk started out as. When Riker dies they will have on his gravestone the best first officer of Captain Picard. Yuck. Also most of what Riker did for Picard was pretty bland. I mean scheduling shift rotations. Yawn.

 

[Phantom]

^Riker still has plenty of time left to serve. Humans in the ST universe can live to over 100.

 

[Fleetlord]

I never understood why the writers kept bringing it up. What was their thinking? Frakes obviously wasn't leaving so why keep bringing up the fact that Riker is turning down promotions? Of course he is; if he doesn't then he's not on the frikking show anymore!

Were they trying to suggest that being number two on the Enterprise was so amazing that nobody would ever want to leave or were some of the writers being dickish and trying to give Frakes a hint or something?

What was the point?

That's a fair question -- it's no less "unrealistic" for the rest of the crew (except Worf and O'Brien) to have stayed in place for so long either, but nobody brings that up.

Nobody's mentioned the Dominion War yet, but if you wanted 'realism', a Starfleet in desperate need of experienced officers would've ordered Riker, Data, and heck, probably Troi to take a ship command, while La Forge is put in command of a shipyard somewhere. That this didn't happen can only be chalked up to narrative necessity.

 

[kkt]

If I wanted entertainment to reflect the real world, I would just skip it and look out the window or turn on one of the dozens of news outlets I have. I could then skip giving movie theaters $30 every other week.

Let me know when I can be a fly on the wall of a sailing-era ship exploring unknown waters in the Pacific...

 

[RandyS]

Bad writing. It was not the best idea to define early Riker's character trait of fast promotions and the desire to captain a starship on a character who needs to stay put on the series throughout its entire run. So when Riker does end up as first officer for the seven-year run, he comes off like he lost all ambition and drive. The ONLY way his character arc has its proper conclusion on the show is for Patrick Stewart to leave.

Not at all. It doesn't matter that Riker's stated goal was his own command. What matters most is that if he had accepted any of them before the show was over, Jonathan Frakes would have been out of a job.

 

[J.T.B.]

I don't really care how it fits into "real world" standards, though I don't really believe Starfleet personnel practices as presented would actually work as presented. But I don't think it was a good way to go for a major character.

They tried to have their cake and eat it too with Riker, presenting him as a dynamic and active leader and at the same time a subordinate content in his place. In TOS, they had the five year mission, so you could assume that assignments and transfers were somewhat frozen for that duration. You can also imagine Spock or Scotty preferring to advance in the scientific and technical fields rather than go for vessel command. Riker, though, was always presented as a command officer through-and-through, born of the early concept of Riker handling the action and Picard overseeing. As presented, the highly capable Riker character would seem to want -- and indeed deserve -- his own command as soon as possible.

Considering the realities of keeping a TV cast together, things could have been written so Riker was still too junior to get his own ship, or even to avoid the subject completely. Instead, they serve it up on a platter to Riker in Season 2. And not only do they make him the offer, but they give Picard a pretty good speech on why he should take it. So the whole Riker character after that point can be questioned: Is he command material or a second fiddle? Is he ambitious or cautious? Does he want to be challenged or to be comfortable? Is he confident or unsure of his abilities? And then they do the same thing again with Melbourne.

There are a couple of other internal inconsistencies on the issue: One, Picard says Ares is an "insignificant" ship, but on a possibly important exploration mission. If Trek has showed us anything, it's that routine exploration can quite suddenly become tricky, dangerous and "significant." No vessel on independent exploration would seem to be an unimportant job for a captain. Two, it's made pretty clear in "Chain of Command" that Starfleet orders changes of command of its vessels, so that raises the question of why Riker wasn't just ordered to a new command, or if he was, why he was allowed to refuse the order.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I don't really care how it fits into "real world" standards, though I don't really believe Starfleet personnel practices as presented would actually work as presented. But I don't think it was a good way to go for a major character.

They tried to have their cake and eat it too with Riker, presenting him as a dynamic and active leader and at the same time a subordinate content in his place. In TOS, they had the five year mission, so you could assume that assignments and transfers were somewhat frozen for that duration. You can also imagine Spock or Scotty preferring to advance in the scientific and technical fields rather than go for vessel command. Riker, though, was always presented as a command officer through-and-through, born of the early concept of Riker handling the action and Picard overseeing. As presented, the highly capable Riker character would seem to want -- and indeed deserve -- his own command as soon as possible.

Considering the realities of keeping a TV cast together, things could have been written so Riker was still too junior to get his own ship, or even to avoid the subject completely. Instead, they serve it up on a platter to Riker in Season 2. And not only do they make him the offer, but they give Picard a pretty good speech on why he should take it. So the whole Riker character after that point can be questioned: Is he command material or a second fiddle? Is he ambitious or cautious? Does he want to be challenged or to be comfortable? Is he confident or unsure of his abilities? And then they do the same thing again with Melbourne.

There are a couple of other internal inconsistencies on the issue: One, Picard says Ares is an "insignificant" ship, but on a possibly important exploration mission. If Trek has showed us anything, it's that routine exploration can quite suddenly become tricky, dangerous and "significant." No vessel on independent exploration would seem to be an unimportant job for a captain. Two, it's made pretty clear in "Chain of Command" that Starfleet orders changes of command of its vessels, so that raises the question of why Riker wasn't just ordered to a new command, or if he was, why he was allowed to refuse the order.

Well said. They made a mistake bringing it up in the second season because after that it looked like Riker was just to scared to get his own command. Shelby was pretty much right about Riker. Even after he proved himself with the borg he still didn't get a solid promotion to Captain and his own ship and was put back to first officer when picard was found alive. They should have promoted Riker and spun his own series off or have him make appearances in TNG as Captain Riker. Getting his first command in his 50s was frankly a bit embarrassing.

 

[2takesfrakes]

They should have promoted Riker and spun his own series off or have him make appearances in TNG as Captain Riker. Getting his first command in his 50s was frankly a bit embarrassing.

I'm forced to agree. Riker was at the perfect age to take up BINGO ... not his own command. Besides which, he only just got married. It's time for him to settle down ... retire. I mean, he gave the Viceroy everything he's got when they fought on the catwalk ... and it was a poor showing, until a bolt conveniently popped out, or came loose and the whole lot tumbled upside down and sideways. Had this not happened, one has to wonder how Riker would've gotten the edge on him. I mean ... I'm a huge Riker fan and it was great to see him getting the things he wanted out of life. It's just that ... he should've gotten them when there was still that Cool Factor, going on.

 

[Sybok Was Wrong]

The writers knew it made no sense that he wasn't a Captain, but you couldn't exactly write out one of your Lead Actors because of a questionable rank.

It made sense that Riker stayed, but they should have left the whole promotion thing alone. Make it seem harder to achieve Captaincy.

 

[USS Firefly]

They should have made Riker captain, so that Tom Riker could become a bridge officer and Frakes could stay.