Will Riker refusing own command

[Mojochi]

it's no less "unrealistic" for the rest of the crew (except Worf and O'Brien) to have stayed in place for so long either, but nobody brings that up.

Actually, I bring it up a lot, with respect to Data especially, a condition I'm left to assume originates in plain old bigotry. In 2 decades he rose up to Lt. Cmdr, & 2nd officer aboard the flagship. In the better part of the next 2, he's never been offered a post anywhere as XO, or captain. He doesn't even earn a rank promotion to full Cmdr. to my knowledge. Worf starts at Lt. Jr. Grade, & in a decade literally surpasses him in position if not yet in rank, in being the Defiant's 1st officer.

In all honesty, Data's stagnancy is way more objectionable than Riker's, who ultimately just became complacent. I see Geordi, Troi, & Beverly at the top of their respective fields. There's no reason to suggest that they need to go anywhere, except Bev, who took a chance at promotion which didn't work out, for whatever reason.

Anyone who's command oriented, should ultimately be aiming to rise up to a command post, at least when they've been in command situations

 

[Kilana2]

In Beverly's case, CMO of Enterprise was obviously more to her liking than being head of Starfleet medical. In a possible future she captains a medical ship. Aboard such a ship both her medical knowledge and her command abilities are beneficial.

 

[specialdirt]

I think at the time he was afraid to command a ship without his own "Data".

 

[MacLeod]

They should have made Riker captain, so that Tom Riker could become a bridge officer and Frakes could stay.

Boom. That's the answer. Will Riker heads off and gets his own command and that side of him is fulfilled. Tom Riker and Deanna become a couple and that side of him is fulfilled.

At one point, the rumor was that this was exactly the plan. A way to "reboot" the character but ultimately they didn't do it.

Going back to the real world don't some people make great second in commands but aren't really suited for being in command all of the time. Would Starfleet really force a promotion on to someone if they felt that the person was best in the role they currently did.

Not saying this was the case with Riker but in general.

Even if the economics of the 24th century are different, the needs of the service aren't. Officers "parking" in ship slots prevent other officers from moving up through the system. They can't just shut down the Academy after all.

If Starfleet has just 5,000 ships, then that's only 10,000 CO/XO slots from a population of many trillions, and a Starfleet personnel pool that probably numbers in the many millions.

And every year, the Academy graduates another class. Who can't even get lesser berths if the people in those berths are either parked themselves or waiting for higher slots that are themselves being parked in.

Surely the needs of the service are best served by having people in the position they are most suited for.

But aside from the ships which must be in the tens of thousands you have hundreds if not thousands of starbases, ship yards, planet based facilities etc.. Not to mention what could be hundreds of new ships coming off the production line every year etc..

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Boom. That's the answer. Will Riker heads off and gets his own command and that side of him is fulfilled. Tom Riker and Deanna become a couple and that side of him is fulfilled.

At one point, the rumor was that this was exactly the plan. A way to "reboot" the character but ultimately they didn't do it.

Going back to the real world don't some people make great second in commands but aren't really suited for being in command all of the time. Would Starfleet really force a promotion on to someone if they felt that the person was best in the role they currently did.

Not saying this was the case with Riker but in general.

Even if the economics of the 24th century are different, the needs of the service aren't. Officers "parking" in ship slots prevent other officers from moving up through the system. They can't just shut down the Academy after all.

If Starfleet has just 5,000 ships, then that's only 10,000 CO/XO slots from a population of many trillions, and a Starfleet personnel pool that probably numbers in the many millions.

And every year, the Academy graduates another class. Who can't even get lesser berths if the people in those berths are either parked themselves or waiting for higher slots that are themselves being parked in.

Surely the needs of the service are best served by having people in the position they are most suited for.

If Starfleet thought Riker was best suited to be XO, they never would've offered him a command. Nobody cares about Lt. Barclay's career not going anywhere, because he doesn't appear to have the potential to be doing much more than he's doing already. Riker is expected to be command material, and therefore stalling in a lower position is actually keeping him out of the position he's expected to be best suited for.

But aside from the ships which must be in the tens of thousands you have hundreds if not thousands of starbases, ship yards, planet based facilities etc.. Not to mention what could be hundreds of new ships coming off the production line every year etc..

This is the second time this week I've seen someone quoting numbers like this. Is there any canon basis for the idea that Starfleet has tens of thousands of ships. In looking back at the Dominion War, which easily showed the greatest concentrations of ships in the canon, I mainly recall even the largest fleets numbering around 100-200 ships, with no indication given that there were more than 10-20 fleets at most.


Thousands of space stations, planetary facilities, etc, sure, but I don't see starships existing in these numbers.

 

[kkt]

Surely the needs of the service are best served by having people in the position they are most suited for.

That's only one of the goals. It's also in the long-term best interests of the service to develop its officers and make each of them the best officer they can be. That doesn't happen without stretching their comfort zones.

 

[Ithekro]

Well the NCC numbers were up into the 75000s by the Dominion War with starships in the 2000s range still serving on the front line.

 

[velour]

it's no less "unrealistic" for the rest of the crew (except Worf and O'Brien) to have stayed in place for so long either, but nobody brings that up.

Actually, I bring it up a lot, with respect to Data especially, a condition I'm left to assume originates in plain old bigotry. In 2 decades he rose up to Lt. Cmdr, & 2nd officer aboard the flagship. In the better part of the next 2, he's never been offered a post anywhere as XO, or captain. He doesn't even earn a rank promotion to full Cmdr. to my knowledge. Worf starts at Lt. Jr. Grade, & in a decade literally surpasses him in position if not yet in rank, in being the Defiant's 1st officer.

In all honesty, Data's stagnancy is way more objectionable than Riker's, who ultimately just became complacent. I see Geordi, Troi, & Beverly at the top of their respective fields. There's no reason to suggest that they need to go anywhere, except Bev, who took a chance at promotion which didn't work out, for whatever reason.

Anyone who's command oriented, should ultimately be aiming to rise up to a command post, at least when they've been in command situations

I think Starfleet could make a legitimate argument against giving Data command of his own ship.

As far as I know, Starfleet's one and only experience, prior to TNG, of turning over command of a starship to a machine took place during the TOS episode "The Ultimate Computer".

Turning the Enterprise over to the M5 computer proved to be a disaster. After the disastrous performance of the M5 during the war games exercise, it would make sense for Starfleet command to have doubts about letting a machine command a starship ever again. It would seem logical that the lessons of the M5 disaster were subsequently taught at the Academy.

It was only because of Picard's favoritism for Data in "Redemption" that led him to give Data temporary command of the Sutherland. And he did that only after Data essentially begged Picard to let him command a ship of his own. That was pathetic, but at the same time I thought both Data and Picard displayed hubris in that situation.

 

[JeffinOakland]

I think this is a "because its a tv show" thing. It would have been too awkward to take Frakes/Riker off Enterprise and work him into every episode. Thus, a character behaves out of character for behind-the-scenes reasons.

 

[BillJ]

I think Starfleet could make a legitimate argument against giving Data command of his own ship.

No. They really can't. He's followed the normal path to command. Including being acting First Officer of the Enterprise ("A Matter of Honor", "Chain of Command") and being in command of the ship and Away Teams.

As far as I know, Starfleet's one and only experience, prior to TNG, of turning over command of a starship to a machine took place during the TOS episode "The Ultimate Computer".

Which was a century prior and failed due to Daystrom imprinting his own synaptic pattern on the M-5 computer.

Data may be a toaster in my opinion, but he's a well qualified toaster.

 

[velour]

I think Starfleet could make a legitimate argument against giving Data command of his own ship.

No. They really can't. He's followed the normal path to command. Including being acting First Officer of the Enterprise ("A Matter of Honor", "Chain of Command") and being in command of the ship and Away Teams.

As far as I know, Starfleet's one and only experience, prior to TNG, of turning over command of a starship to a machine took place during the TOS episode "The Ultimate Computer".

Which was a century prior and failed due to Daystrom imprinting his own synaptic pattern on the M-5 computer.

Data may be a toaster in my opinion, but he's a well qualified toaster.

But Data is not a normal officer, in the sense that he's artificial. The M5 incident set the precedent. Starfleet command would be committing a dereliction of duty if they just impulsively gave command of a ship to a machine in the middle of a conflict.

Daystrom's engrams were programmed into the M5. His engrams were suppose to give the machine a moral compass. The machine was not suppose murder, but it did anyway. The machine proved to be unpredictably disastrous.

Oddly enough Data proved to be unpredictable as well when he commanded the Sutherland. He didn't follow Picard's orders. When he reported back to Picard after the mission ended, he even said that the ends did not justify the means.

 

[BillJ]

But Data is not a normal officer, in the sense that he's artificial. The M5 incident set the precedent. Starfleet command would be committing a dereliction of duty if they just impulsively gave command of a ship to a machine in the middle of a conflict.

Neither is a Vulcan. As they don't rely on emotion to make decisions. Data and M-5 are two different machines designed with two different purposes in mind. To sentence Data for the crimes of M-5 is a huge mistake in my mind.

Daystrom's engrams were programmed into the M5. His engrams were suppose to give the machine a moral compass. The machine was not suppose murder, but it did anyway. The machine proved to be unpredictably disastrous.

Daystrom was also crazy. Which was why M-5 went off the deep end...

DAYSTROM: We will survive. Nothing can hurt you. I gave you that. You are great. I am great. Twenty years of groping to prove the things I'd done before were not accidents. Seminars and lectures to rows of fools who couldn't begin to understand my systems. Colleagues. Colleagues laughing behind my back at the boy wonder and becoming famous building on my work. Building on my work.

***

DAYSTROM: Destroyed, Kirk? No. We're invincible. Look what we've done. Your mighty starships, Four toys to be crushed as we choose.

More than a thousand people died. The M-5 program had to be stopped for public relations reasons, but even Spock thought the idea of M-5 controlling a starship was practical.

 

[Ithekro]

I was under the impression that, at first they considered Data to be relatively new to Starfleet, yet as time went on it turned out he'd been in the fleet for two decades or more.

 

[MacLeod]

At one point, the rumor was that this was exactly the plan. A way to "reboot" the character but ultimately they didn't do it.



Even if the economics of the 24th century are different, the needs of the service aren't. Officers "parking" in ship slots prevent other officers from moving up through the system. They can't just shut down the Academy after all.

If Starfleet has just 5,000 ships, then that's only 10,000 CO/XO slots from a population of many trillions, and a Starfleet personnel pool that probably numbers in the many millions.

And every year, the Academy graduates another class. Who can't even get lesser berths if the people in those berths are either parked themselves or waiting for higher slots that are themselves being parked in.

Surely the needs of the service are best served by having people in the position they are most suited for.

If Starfleet thought Riker was best suited to be XO, they never would've offered him a command. Nobody cares about Lt. Barclay's career not going anywhere, because he doesn't appear to have the potential to be doing much more than he's doing already. Riker is expected to be command material, and therefore stalling in a lower position is actually keeping him out of the position he's expected to be best suited for.

But aside from the ships which must be in the tens of thousands you have hundreds if not thousands of starbases, ship yards, planet based facilities etc.. Not to mention what could be hundreds of new ships coming off the production line every year etc..

This is the second time this week I've seen someone quoting numbers like this. Is there any canon basis for the idea that Starfleet has tens of thousands of ships. In looking back at the Dominion War, which easily showed the greatest concentrations of ships in the canon, I mainly recall even the largest fleets numbering around 100-200 ships, with no indication given that there were more than 10-20 fleets at most.


Thousands of space stations, planetary facilities, etc, sure, but I don't see starships existing in these numbers.

Well for the Second Battle of Deep Space Nine they assembled a fleet of some 700 ships, true that was comprised of ships from various fleets, but you still have to think they left enough ships in the fleets from which they pulled those ships to defend the places they were assigned to defend. So yes it might not be in the tens of thosuands but it could certainly be in the high thousands

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Well the NCC numbers were up into the 75000s by the Dominion War with starships in the 2000s range still serving on the front line.

Have NCC numbers ever been proven to have anything to do with the number of ships in the fleet?

 

[BillJ]

Well the NCC numbers were up into the 75000s by the Dominion War with starships in the 2000s range still serving on the front line.

Have NCC numbers ever been proven to have anything to do with the number of ships in the fleet?

No. They're just gibberish.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

This is the second time this week I've seen someone quoting numbers like this. Is there any canon basis for the idea that Starfleet has tens of thousands of ships. In looking back at the Dominion War, which easily showed the greatest concentrations of ships in the canon, I mainly recall even the largest fleets numbering around 100-200 ships, with no indication given that there were more than 10-20 fleets at most.


Thousands of space stations, planetary facilities, etc, sure, but I don't see starships existing in these numbers.

Well for the Second Battle of Deep Space Nine they assembled a fleet of some 700 ships, true that was comprised of ships from various fleets, but you still have to think they left enough ships in the fleets from which they pulled those ships to defend the places they were assigned to defend. So yes it might not be in the tens of thosuands but it could certainly be in the high thousands

That was a pivotal battle in the war - if Dominion reinforcements came through the wormhole, the Alpha quadrant was lost. The fact that it only involved 700 federation starships would seem a huge argument against the number being in the high thousands.

If I take the highest end of my previous estimates (20ish fleets at 200-ish ships each) I get around 4,000 ships in the fleet, which, considering that, in peacetime, there's often 'only 1 ship in the area' and even in wartime, most places seem to make do with the protection of only a few ships, if any, I'd say that's roughly enough to provide 700 ships to retake DS9 while also maintaining a defensive perimeter.

Well the NCC numbers were up into the 75000s by the Dominion War with starships in the 2000s range still serving on the front line.

Have NCC numbers ever been proven to have anything to do with the number of ships in the fleet?

No. They're just gibberish.

Yeah, that's what I always thought, as well.

 

[MacLeod]

And there is no canon basis for there only being 5000 ships, and the end of the day it's all conjecture. The Dominion War was fought in only a small corner of the Federation, how many ships where in the other 95% of the Federation.

And of course due to the War several ships could have been recommisioned that had been lying idle in various storage facilities.

 

[J.T.B.]

I think Starfleet could make a legitimate argument against giving Data command of his own ship.

No, they can't. Whatever legal decision was involved was made back when Data was commissioned as a Starfleet officer. Once the commission is granted, he has the same rights and obligations as any other officer. If qualified for command, he can succeed to command. He could not have been assigned as Enterprise second officer if he was not qualified or legally entitled to succeed to command.

Oddly enough Data proved to be unpredictable as well when he commanded the Sutherland. He didn't follow Picard's orders. When he reported back to Picard after the mission ended, he even said that the ends did not justify the means.

And Picard said he was wrong. Data had information that the fleet commander did not and acted accordingly. This follows in the longstanding tradition of exercising initiative in battle, Nelson putting the telescope to his blind eye and so on.

And there is no canon basis for there only being 5000 ships, and the end of the day it's all conjecture. The Dominion War was fought in only a small corner of the Federation, how many ships where in the other 95% of the Federation.

But for purposes of this discussion, the size of the fleet doesn't really matter because the new personnel "input" will be in proportion to the size of the fleet and personnel turnover. The corollary to Riker parking indefinitely in a position that he prefers is that some other officers can be stuck indefinitely in positions they don't prefer. Which seems fine when you're focused on one "special" character, but it really doesn't stand up when you think of the implications to the service at large. Which I understand, because it's a TV show, but I think it would have been better for the character and the show in general if they had tried not to call attention to it.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

And there is no canon basis for there only being 5000 ships, and the end of the day it's all conjecture. The Dominion War was fought in only a small corner of the Federation, how many ships where in the other 95% of the Federation.

And of course due to the War several ships could have been recommisioned that had been lying idle in various storage facilities.

I agree there's no canon basis either way, although the idea that Starfleet wouldn't be using every ship they possibly could to fight the dominion war is a little strange, consider they were supposedly losing it for a long time.

I was just curious since I've seen the claim that there 'must' be tens of thousands of ships in starfleet popping up several times lately.