Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[JD]

I thought she did very well as Illyria and doing that to Fred was extremely effective, especially after how they handled Cordellia's exit.
I'm just disappointed we only had Illyria for a handful or episodes.

Oh, she did a good job, certainly, but I hated what they did to Fred. They didn't just kill her off, but wiped out her existence completely in all time and space or something. It felt very meanspirited. It was pretty much the essence of what I complain about when I complain about "Dark & Gritty."

It's been a while since I've seen it, but I'm pretty sure that's not quite what happened.
From what I recall there was a bit about her soul being gone, consumed and shredded into oblivion when Illyria took over her form.
On a show like Angel (and by extension, Buffy), that's just the writer's way of making it clear a character is *dead* dead. Like for real. Permanently. Ain't no amount spells, talismans, favours with eldrich gods or red headed witches covered in bodypaint shouting at the clouds is going to bring her back.

It made the loss feel much more real in a cast of characters that includes two who have technically been dead for centuries and one who got his head cut off without too much inconvenience.

Spoiler: Buffy/Angel & Faith Season 10

Well from what I've read about the Angel & Faith Season 10 comics that's not entirely true. They did bring her back somehow.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It was Connor, Angel's kid who was erased from time. Or at least his identity, and any evidence that he had ever existed was erased, meanwhile the kid was given new memories and a happy normal life to lead.

Connor was the reverse Dawn.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I thought she did very well as Illyria and doing that to Fred was extremely effective, especially after how they handled Cordellia's exit.
I'm just disappointed we only had Illyria for a handful or episodes.

Oh, she did a good job, certainly, but I hated what they did to Fred. They didn't just kill her off, but wiped out her existence completely in all time and space or something. It felt very meanspirited. It was pretty much the essence of what I complain about when I complain about "Dark & Gritty."

As I understand it, that wasn't exactly the plan longterm - it was just what the characters were supposed to think at the time. But then, the show was canceled, so the long term idea I guess doesn't matter anymore.

Well, that's nice to hear. Don't go to any trouble, but if you have a link I wouldn't mind seeing it.

I thought she did very well as Illyria and doing that to Fred was extremely effective, especially after how they handled Cordellia's exit.
I'm just disappointed we only had Illyria for a handful or episodes.

Oh, she did a good job, certainly, but I hated what they did to Fred. They didn't just kill her off, but wiped out her existence completely in all time and space or something. It felt very meanspirited. It was pretty much the essence of what I complain about when I complain about "Dark & Gritty."

It's been a while since I've seen it, but I'm pretty sure that's not quite what happened.
From what I recall there was a bit about her soul being gone, consumed and shredded into oblivion when Illyria took over her form.
On a show like Angel (and by extension, Buffy), that's just the writer's way of making it clear a character is *dead* dead. Like for real. Permanently. Ain't no amount spells, talismans, favours with eldrich gods or red headed witches covered in bodypaint shouting at the clouds is going to bring her back.

It made the loss feel much more real in a cast of characters that includes two who have technically been dead for centuries and one who got his head cut off without too much inconvenience.

Yes, that's what I was thinking of. I always hate the unnecessary "shocking" death of a major character to begin with, and that added touch of cruelty just made it that much worse.

Spoiler: Buffy/Angel & Faith Season 10

Well from what I've read about the Angel & Faith Season 10 comics that's not entirely true. They did bring her back somehow.

Spoiler: Fred

I've never read the comics, but I'm happy to hear that.

It was Connor, Angel's kid who was erased from time. Or at least his identity, and any evidence that he had ever existed was erased, meanwhile the kid was given new memories and a happy normal life to lead.

I don't remember that at all. I must be conflating the two in my head.

 

[Kemaiku]

Spoiler: After the Fall

In the Angel comics, they do show Illyria and Fred as two separate beings, and even separate them very briefly. Fred still exists but can't be restored to her former self for "reasons".

Illyria in Hell is able to regain her original form and power as well. I didn't read much past that to see if that still applied after LA returned to Earth since the only change was to move the city and restore people to life.

 

[Relayer1]

Well, I've just watched part one of the season finale. I've got to say, the way the whole show is changing, seaon three may be rather good...

 

[Corran Horn]

Of course Simmons is not as loveable character as Fred was...

Speak for yourself.

 

[JD]

Oh, she did a good job, certainly, but I hated what they did to Fred. They didn't just kill her off, but wiped out her existence completely in all time and space or something. It felt very meanspirited. It was pretty much the essence of what I complain about when I complain about "Dark & Gritty."

As I understand it, that wasn't exactly the plan longterm - it was just what the characters were supposed to think at the time. But then, the show was canceled, so the long term idea I guess doesn't matter anymore.

Well, that's nice to hear. Don't go to any trouble, but if you have a link I wouldn't mind seeing it.


Yes, that's what I was thinking of. I always hate the unnecessary "shocking" death of a major character to begin with, and that added touch of cruelty just made it that much worse.

Spoiler: Buffy/Angel & Faith Season 10

Well from what I've read about the Angel & Faith Season 10 comics that's not entirely true. They did bring her back somehow.

Spoiler: Fred

I've never read the comics, but I'm happy to hear that.

It was Connor, Angel's kid who was erased from time. Or at least his identity, and any evidence that he had ever existed was erased, meanwhile the kid was given new memories and a happy normal life to lead.

I don't remember that at all. I must be conflating the two in my head.

Spoiler: After the Fall

In the Angel comics, they do show Illyria and Fred as two separate beings, and even separate them very briefly. Fred still exists but can't be restored to her former self for "reasons".

Illyria in Hell is able to regain her original form and power as well. I didn't read much past that to see if that still applied after LA returned to Earth since the only change was to move the city and restore people to life.

Spoiler: Illyria and Fred in Angel & Faith S10

Here's the bit on the Buffyverse wiki about the return of Fred and Illyria's current status

Later, when encountering Buffy Summers, Illyria declared that her similarities with Fred were an "affectation" to humor Fred's friends, which she suggests was ultimately a bad decision for all parties involved. Later still however, Illyria has her powers stolen by the Siphon, a process which ordinarily kills demons. Illyria openly moots that it might not be residual magic which is sustaining her life, and attracts attention from Willow and others for being uncharacteristically compassionate, even going so far as to make the ultimate sacrifice, leaving the question of how much of Fred remained in Illyria up until her death open to discussion.
Return

Newly resurrected, Fred reunites with Angel in Magic Town.
Some time after Illyria's death, Angel encountered what appeared to be Fred walking along a street in Magic Town, London[7]. Talking with Fred as she is assessed by Nadira, Angel determines that Fred was apparently restored by the restoration of magic causing most of the old rules to be 'reset' as things that were lost were brought back. Fred explains that she remembers Illyria's time in her body, such as her attempt to awaken her armies, but is still aware of Illyria within her, granting her access to Illyria's older memories and occasionally allowing Illyria to take over when she is exhausted or stressed (Although they both sleep when Fred sleeps). Thanks to these flashes, Fred is able to reveal to Angel that Eldre Koh's tribe were killed by Illyria centuries ago to frame him so that the cult he belonged to would be disbanded.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Well, that's very interesting. I'm glad to hear that Fred was saved, even if she's still somewhat possessed by Ilyria. It's too bad they didn't have a chance to do that in the show.

 

[bbjeg]

^That show left on the grimmest note possible. Awesome, but grim.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Yeah, they really had bad luck when it came to cancellation.

 

[Marsden]

I don't have anything to add to the Buffy thread.


Now, instead of joy, Tuesdays bring me emptyness.....



But at least I finally got to see the movie on Sunday.

 

[Karzak]

Well, that's very interesting. I'm glad to hear that Fred was saved, even if she's still somewhat possessed by Ilyria. It's too bad they didn't have a chance to do that in the show.

^That show left on the grimmest note possible. Awesome, but grim.

Yeah, they really had bad luck when it came to cancellation.

I disagree that the end of the series was grim. I thought it was hopeful. No matter how bad the day would be, Angel and his crew would be out there fighting the good fight. I almost wish there hadn't been any comics afterward, because it was such a powerful statement and such a powerful moment.

Re: cancellation, as I remember it, Whedon pressed the WB for a decision early, and their (early) decision was to put a stake in the heart of the show. Bad luck indeed.

 

[bbjeg]

Spoiler: Angel spoiler.

Didn't the series end with hordes of monsters (and a dragon if I remembered it right) assaulting the world.

Sorry for the off topic assist Marsden. The season one thread ended with a derail too. Last time, I created a Updates, News, Spoilers, Etc. thread for this season, and plan on doing it for season 3 when real news starts coming in (besides just the two new full-time cast members), but until then, expect this thread to take some odd turns as people express their reactions to the season, through whatever analogous means available.

 

[Christopher]

Spoiler: Angel spoiler.

Didn't the series end with hordes of monsters (and a dragon if I remembered it right) assaulting the world.

Spoiler: ditto

I think it was just Los Angeles, not the world. At least, the followup comic -- whose current canon status I'm unsure of -- showed that LA had been dragged into a hell dimension.

 

[Marsden]

Don't be sorry, bbjeg.

I just never watched Buffy.

The more I hear about it, the more I'd like to but it will be on my "list of things" I don't know when I'll get to it.


And Tuesday has changed from a highpoint to not.


I was thinking about one of Christopher's two points he mentioned about the very end.

I agree that they shouldn't have left those crystals loose in the world, maybe SHIELD did/will go back to recover the crystals in ocean but not before that disolved into the food chain and we'll see the mentioned recovery next season. It was a brief scene at the end, so it doesn't necessarily include everything.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, we saw just how easily those crystals turn into mist with nothing more than sharp impact. Clearly they're not all that robust (probably by design) so I don't imagine they were in the water long before they started to dissolve.

Assuming SHIELD sent down a robotic submersible to try and salvage them, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that all they found was an empty box and some diviner metal fragments.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Season three to premiere on September 29th.

I remember when the show first started, Jed and Mauissa said that they has a "solid, two-year plan" for the show, and frankly, if that's all we had gotten, I would have been happy. Everything from here on out is like gravy.

 

[DEWLine]

Assuming SHIELD sent down a robotic submersible to try and salvage them, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that all they found was an empty box and some diviner metal fragments.

And the "Diviner" metal would've been the most immediate hazard. Scooping that up via telepresence tech would've been the immediate priority.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Season two has arrived at Netflix.

 

[JD]

I think there were several comments when news came that S2 was going to be streaming on Netflix that this is possibly one of the quickest new seasons to pop up there.