Game Of Thrones Season 5 TV Only Discussion (Spoilers)

[137th Gebirg]

To talk about something other than rape, the fight scene of Bronn & Jaimie against the Sand Snakes seemes to have taken a lot of criticism on some of the facebook pages I peruse. People saying that it was of really poor quality, like from an episde of Power Rangers.

I can't say I really noticed to be honest. Watching it again it doesn't overly blow me away, but I don't know if it's particularly bad. Opinions?

Compared to what we've seen in the past, demonstrating what the fight choreographers are indeed capable of (including the sacking of Yunkai, the Battle of the Blackwater, the fight between Jorah Mormont and Qotho, and especially the fight between Gregor Clegaine and Oberyn Martell), this one looked like it was put together by a first-year film student. I found the fight scene where Selmy was taken down to also be sub-par compared to other combat in the past. Can't be sure, but I'm thinking they might have a new choreographer this season who doesn't quite know how to put it together. Either way, they have gone a bit downhill this season. With the lacking nature of the source material they're working from, they should have at least made an attempt at making these scenes more interesting to watch.

In this particular scene in which people are referring, you can definitely tell that there are pulled/missed punches & kicks, the weapons are obviously fake and wobble when they hit each other, they seem to be made of exceptionally thick rubber and painted gray instead of using Live Steel, the one Sand Snake with the twin blades is especially slow on the thrust in one particular cut (at 40 seconds), the one with the whip was pretty much ineffective, as well as other generally awkward scene cuts - all which serve to really break the suspension of disbelief. And I'm not entirely sure that the actresses who played the Sand Snakes were trained well enough to take on a scene of this complexity.

The Sand Snakes plot line is pretty meh though. Oberyn Martell died in combat fair and square. He wasn't forced into it in any way. And frankly he died because of his own foolishness and fucking around talking to the Mountain. The Sand Snakes need to get over it.

"The Dornish are fucking crazy" -Bronn

Once that concept is embraced, the rest is easy to accept.

 

[Deckerd]

Why are you watching something you find repulsive then?

I don't watch it. I'm commenting on the crass diversions from the original stories to make them even more brutalising to female characters.

Okay, my mistake. But how can you comment on something you haven't seen? And why are you posting in this thread that discusses episodes you are not interested in watching?

Not watching it doesn't preclude me from having an opinion on the way the plot has been changed. Someone just mentioned Jaime fighting with the Sand Snakes. WTF?

 

[Forbin]

Shows and movies always change things from the books, since the dawn of the motion picture industry. Eliminating minor characters and substituting a major character is pretty standard. You only have to pay one guy who you're already paying.

 

[Deckerd]

I've no objection to changing the plot and changing what happens to different characters (my WTF aside up above since I couldn't see how that got worked in except to have 3 women fighting with knives). My problem is making plot changes to fit in another rape scene. Next they'll have Arya raped and that will be the full set.

 

[Venardhi]

The wedding night rape would have happened either way, the change was in who it happened to.

But yeah, the Dorne scenes have been pretty laughable so far in general and this week didn't endear me to the story any more. The Sand Snakes are cackling cartoons and Jaime seems to have based his plan around the idea there would be no guards, walls or resistance in general. Which, conveniently, wasn't far off.

 

[Ryan8bit]

And that's too bad really since Dorne is such a beautiful place. Plus it has our man, Bashir. We haven't gotten enough Siddig!

 

[Owain Taggart]

Remember, they don't answer to history. They answer to the people who watch their show. If their answer to some of those people is "you just don't get it...HISTORY!!!", then how can anyone be surprised when those people head for the exits?

I agree with most of what you said.

This is more or less how I see it: The writers are hiding behind the veil of history. But history it ain't. Oh, sure, it might take several cues out of medieval history, but all in all, it's a fantasy world dreamed up by one particular author. Writers of the show, and particularly this season as it's thin on the books, are the ones shaping up the narrative, so in theory, they should be able to deviate more reasonably from the books. And curiously, out of all things they chose not to deviate from ( for the most part) when they've deviated plenty already this season, they'd choose this. It's not history they're writing. It's fantasy.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Much of the hype surrounding this season focussed on Dorne and the impression was given that it would be the star of this season (possibly because Oberyn was so popular last year). But if the people I speak to and sites I look at are representative (and of course they may not be), few people seem overly taken with it.

 

[theenglish]

I don't watch it. I'm commenting on the crass diversions from the original stories to make them even more brutalising to female characters.

Okay, my mistake. But how can you comment on something you haven't seen? And why are you posting in this thread that discusses episodes you are not interested in watching?

Not watching it doesn't preclude me from having an opinion on the way the plot has been changed. Someone just mentioned Jaime fighting with the Sand Snakes. WTF?

You can have an opinion, but express it in the thread on the books where it belongs--here it just comes across as trolling.

Much of the hype surrounding this season focussed on Dorne and the impression was given that it would be the star of this season (possibly because Oberyn was so popular last year). But if the people I speak to and sites I look at are representative (and of course they may not be), few people seem overly taken with it.

I agree that it has become a bit of a weak point but it doesn't have to be. There has been very little time devoted to it and we haven't really seen very much of its inhabitants or of the land itself. What we have seen have been a group of two-dimensional, gimmicky, warriors and a few small speeches by Siddig's character.

 

[Venardhi]

Remember, they don't answer to history. They answer to the people who watch their show. If their answer to some of those people is "you just don't get it...HISTORY!!!", then how can anyone be surprised when those people head for the exits?

I agree with most of what you said.

This is more or less how I see it: The writers are hiding behind the veil of history. But history it ain't. Oh, sure, it might take several cues out of medieval history, but all in all, it's a fantasy world dreamed up by one particular author. Writers of the show, and particularly this season as it's thin on the books, are the ones shaping up the narrative, so in theory, they should be able to deviate more reasonably from the books. And curiously, out of all things they chose not to deviate from ( for the most part) when they've deviated plenty already this season, they'd choose this. It's not history they're writing. It's fantasy.

In my experience the best shows are the ones who tell the story they want to tell and the audience be damned if they don't like it.

Rape has been part of the human condition since before we were humans. It is horrible, it is painful, it is one of the worst things that can happen to a person, but it happens every day around the world and in your neighborhood and everywhere in between and has from the ancient world til modern day. The idea that rape should be off limits in storytelling, especially storytelling that is often refreshingly blunt about the dark side of human nature in an unforgiving world where every day is a battle of life and death in some way or another, is preposterous.

 

[Owain Taggart]

In my experience the best shows are the ones who tell the story they want to tell and the audience be damned if they don't like it.

Absolutely, and so it should.

Rape has been part of the human condition since before we were humans. It is horrible, it is painful, it is one of the worst things that can happen to a person, but it happens every day around the world and in your neighborhood and everywhere in between and has from the ancient world til modern day. The idea that rape should be off limits in storytelling, especially storytelling that is often refreshingly blunt about the dark side of human nature in an unforgiving world where every day is a battle of life and death in some way or another, is preposterous.

Right, all I'm saying is, given the deviations this season, couldn't they maybe been a little wiser and taken things in a different direction? We've already seen plenty of that in past seasons. I really don't see why they had to stick to the book on this one when they're pretty much forging a new path for all these characters this season, and with Sansa having had just come out of another similar situation. I'm not saying they shouldn't do rape, period. But that this particular instance I think was a little tactless.

 

[QCzar]

In my experience the best shows are the ones who tell the story they want to tell and the audience be damned if they don't like it.

This is one of those seemingly profound statements that, when taken as read, are actually profoundly moronic (on multiple levels, at that). Read that back to yourself and see if you catch it. I sincerely hope you do.

First off pretty much no one has cried "rape is off limits", so who exactly you're arguing against I'm not sure. You do realize we're talking about this particular scene in this particular episode of this one show, right? There's no movement to fight, so you can relax on that front.

As for the lazy appeals to "realism", we've already been over this. This show is not a documentary and it's not intended to be. Thus, this cannot be held up as a shield against all criticism. Saying "rape happens, the world sucks" is a completely meaningless, shallow response to the question of why it was necessary in this one instance, considering this show and this character's track record.

I am honestly perplexed at how people can be flummoxed by this simple logic.

FWIW, I'm not necessarily against them showing it. As I already stated, I don't want to censor GoT. I simply question if it was necessary for Sansa's story or if it's just gratuitous sensationalism.



As a completely unrelated aside: Where the fuck is Varys?

 

[Venardhi]

Truly impressive storytelling rarely comes out of committee and focus groups. Worrying about popular opinion is a terrible way to make art.

An unpopular choice can often lead to a much bigger and better payoff that the audience will love more than if you just spoonfeed them the story they want to be told. If people want the comforts of formula there are a couple dozen procedurals and another dozen 3-camera sitcoms that are happy to oblige them.

And I am not appealing to realism, I'm appealing to the established universe this story exists in and the established characters living in it. It happens to be a refreshingly grounded and "realistic" one in this particular arena. Choices have consequences here, and usually not good ones. Ramsay isn't going to be a gentle loving husband and he isn't going to take his time, that isn't his character. He is a sociopathic monster obsessed with power and control and lacking any sort of moral center. The scene is a grim reminder of what Sansa faces for the rest of her very short life if she doesn't come to terms with her fears and push herself to action.

 

[theenglish]

Truly impressive storytelling rarely comes out of committee and focus groups. Worrying about popular opinion is a terrible way to make art.

An unpopular choice can often lead to a much bigger and better payoff that the audience will love more than if you just spoonfeed them the story they want to be told. If people want the comforts of formula there are a couple dozen procedurals and another dozen 3-camera sitcoms that are happy to oblige them.

And I am not appealing to realism, I'm appealing to the established universe this story exists in and the established characters living in it. It happens to be a refreshingly grounded and "realistic" one in this particular arena. Choices have consequences here, and usually not good ones. Ramsay isn't going to be a gentle loving husband and he isn't going to take his time, that isn't his character. He is a sociopathic monster obsessed with power and control and lacking any sort of moral center. The scene is a grim reminder of what Sansa faces for the rest of her very short life if she doesn't come to terms with her fears and push herself to action.

Good points. I think it is also worth stressing again that this is part of the story that has already been told, but for the sake of economy the producers are combining story lines and incorporating pre-established characters with those who have already been on screen and with whom the audience is familiar. Whereas the previous two seasons focused on the third book of the series, with exceptions, this season is covering a good portion of the fourth and fifth books.

 

[QCzar]

Truly impressive storytelling rarely comes out of committee and focus groups. Worrying about popular opinion is a terrible way to make art.

Additionally, some of the worst television has been the result of some people never being told "no", so there's that.

Your interpretation of the scene (which, truly, this will be my last time addressing) is a valid one. Perhaps you should have led with that, but I digress. I still don't feel that it was the inexorable outcome of Sansa's situation, as Cogman seems to suggest.

-

This and the state of Dorne are making me worried that the producers really will be rudderless when it comes to creating non-Martin content (or, at least, moving the characters in new directions). It hasn't outright sucked, but it is kinda underwhelming so far. I mean they managed to make Cersei seem even more witless, which is quite an accomplishment.

Tyrion and Jorah seem to be the only ones actually going somewhere (in plot terms, as well as literally). Unfortunately they're going to the place (and person) I find the most dull.

And, boy, do these "Sand Snakes" seem more like dust mites.

 

[Venardhi]

There is a big area between populism and dictatorship and the optimum usually rests somewhere in between.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

To talk about something other than rape, the fight scene of Bronn & Jaimie against the Sand Snakes seemes to have taken a lot of criticism on some of the facebook pages I peruse. People saying that it was of really poor quality, like from an episode of Power Rangers


[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG2o1GBZj1A[/yt]


I can't say I really noticed to be honest. Watching it again it doesn't overly blow me away, but I don't know if it's particularly bad. Opinions?

The Sand Snakes plot line is pretty meh though. Oberyn Martell died in combat fair and square. He wasn't forced into it in any way. And frankly he died because of his own foolishness and fucking around talking to the Mountain. The Sand Snakes need to get over it.

@Bold

*Gasp*
You can't compare PR to the Sand Snake fight. On PR, they use a combination of martial arts choreography, stunt work, SFX and wire work. It's pretty impressive for a child's tv show.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0JQ5TCfCBw[/yt]

In all seriousness, yeah the fight Sunday was disappointing. It's not like GoT doesn't have a budget to make their fights as real as possible. Idk, maybe its because the actresses who play the Sand Snakes weren't given very good fight choreography. Watching their foot work and how one of them handled the pike, it did seem like a Disney stunt show more than a clash of swords. It's certainly no Eddard vs Jaime.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwRix1p9sDY[/yt]

 

[Kelso]

I thought the incident was handled tastefully for that sort of thing. It isn't the sort of thing I care to watch, so I'm glad it happened off-screen. But it did feel like the natural progression of the story and it made me intrigued to see what happens next. And it very clearly communicated that Sansa's current situation is a lot more dangerous than any she has been before (which is saying something). It also established that Ramsey is even more despicable than Joffrey was.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I was ecstatic they ditched Jeyne Poole and replaced her with Sansa. Having her back in Winterfell is going to be interesting.

The sand snakes are pretty useless IMO, they could have been ditched too. Replace them with more Siddig!

 

[QCzar]

The sand snakes are pretty useless IMO, they could have been ditched too. Replace them with more Siddig!

So much this! I can't wait to see how Doran handles Bronn.