Game Of Thrones Season 5 TV Only Discussion (Spoilers)

[Deckerd]

It cannot be beyond the wit of TV producers, if they can change the storyline at will, to actually reduce the graphic carnage instead of cranking it up. It doesn't make good TV by any definition of the word.

Oh and in case anyone hasn't pointed it out yet, Dany wasn't raped by her husband on their wedding night. In fact he went out of his way to arouse her properly.

Is that in the book?
To be fair I was only talking about the show. I don't know what other peoples sex lives are like, but for me I wouldn't really be a fan if when I take a girls clothes off she hurridly tries to cover herself, and then as we "get down to it" she's there crying her eyes out.
But hey that's just me.

Yes that's in the book. He sees how terrified she is so he just spends the night gently calming her down and pushing her buttons, so to speak. That would have been proper, erotic TV right there. But what do they do instead?

 

[theenglish]

Oh and in case anyone hasn't pointed it out yet, Dany wasn't raped by her husband on their wedding night. In fact he went out of his way to arouse her properly.

Is that in the book?
To be fair I was only talking about the show. I don't know what other peoples sex lives are like, but for me I wouldn't really be a fan if when I take a girls clothes off she hurridly tries to cover herself, and then as we "get down to it" she's there crying her eyes out.
But hey that's just me.

This scene was changed from the books. In the novel it was actually quite a tender and romantic scene and revealed a lot about the sensitivity of the Khal Drogo character. In the series, it wasn't much different in nature than what happened to Sansa--but it was filmed differently.

 

[Saul]

I think it is perfectly valid to question such lazy, "rape as character development" writing.

The creater of the series George Martin seems not to be upset by this scene.

Yeah, isn't it strange that men don't get upset with scenes like this. I wonder fucking why......

This is all absurd IMO and to get worked up over fiction.

Unfortunately such things are not fiction for some people and it could have been dealt with more sensitively.
Despite it not been a graphic scene it left little to the imagination. Considering how the scene was going it could have gone to credits sooner and we'd still know how things would have turned out.

 

[Booji]

Unfortunately such things are not fiction for some people and it could have been dealt with more sensitively.

The same can be said for any number of issues... alcholism, drug abuse, cancer treatment, bullying, murder, war, etc. All of these could and do have profound effects on people. Should these issues be abandoned in film? If they are filmed, what is considered sensitive to one could be distasteful to another. It's a slippery slope. By now, everyone knows what they're possibly getting when sitting down to watch a GOT episode. If graphic things insult you, don't watch. And again, in the context of the story, the scene worked... and it could have been infinitely worse if they based it more closely on George's books. The writers certainly held back when they could have gone all in.

 

[theenglish]

Unfortunately such things are not fiction for some people and it could have been dealt with more sensitively.

The same can be said for any number of issues... alcholism, drug abuse, cancer treatment, bullying, murder, war, etc. All of these could and do have profound effects on people. Should these issues be abandoned in film? If they are filmed, what is considered sensitive to one could be distasteful to another. It's a slippery slope. By now, everyone knows what they're possibly getting when sitting down to watch a GOT episode. If graphic things insult you, don't watch. And again, in the context of the story, the scene worked... and it could have been infinitely worse if they based it more closely on George's books. The writers certainly held back when they could have gone all in.

Remember the world of Fahrenheit 451 where books were banned not because of government censorship but because people found something offensive or upsetting in each and every one of them.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Agreed. It's funny how much hoopla this "rape" makes, yet a couple seasons ago you have babies being drowned to death and having their throats slit... and no one says a word. There is a whole lot of emo going around

Yeah, honestly the baby killing was some of the most intense stuff to me, but I also know that this show likes to push boundaries and portrays a different type of society and era. So in general I can separate that it is fiction. Yes, maybe others cannot or are sensitive, but then this isn't the show for them.

 

[Deckerd]

Is it the show for anyone? I mean really? Who likes this shit?

 

[theenglish]

Is it the show for anyone? I mean really? Who likes this shit?

Why are you watching something you find repulsive then?

 

[Ryan8bit]

I think part of it for me is that I don't necessarily like to see these things, but rather that it's the kind of entertainment that challenges you a little bit and pushes some of those boundaries. For instance, I did not like seeing Oberyn so brutally murdered. That was probably the most graphic moment on the show and the one that really made me apprehensive afterward. But just because something happened that was difficult to watch doesn't really impact my enjoyment of the show. In a way, having such horrible things happen can be a good part of drama. Of course, that may be debatable in the case of what just happened to Sansa, but without knowing how that turns out, I can't yet say.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think it is perfectly valid to question such lazy, "rape as character development" writing.

The creater of the series George Martin seems not to be upset by this scene.

So?

Regarding, 'de-rail,' um now. I just don't get people's selective outrage over issues.

You don't understand why I care about something that happened in a show I watch, and not about something in a show I don't watch? Are you serious?

Oh and please stop the ad hominin attacks. I wasn't attacking any poster in this forum but rather the outrage from several groups and notably Senator Claire McCaskill over this scene. This is all absurd IMO and to get worked up over fiction.

So you attacked a whole group of individuals and you're upset that your post got attacked. OK. Speaking of hypocrisy.

By the way, "it's fiction" is and always has been a bullshit defense. Fiction is part of the culture. Culture matters.

Go learn about the influence of media on cultural values and maybe don't post about this again until you have clue one what you're talking about.

Now you're just getting pompous and condescending.

The influence of media on cultural values is very contextual and highly debatable, so just whipping that out like a holier than thou cudgel is ridiculous. You're basically arguing that something you disapprove of is bad because everybody else is mind-controlled by it. It's the same bullshit argument that's been applied to justify censorship of video games and proven to be nonsense.

Yes, Sansa was stripped of agency. This is, however, portrayed as a negative thing, and the perpetrator of the rape is clearly portrayed as a monster. You might have a point if the rape was conducted by a likable character, rather than by the most evil character in the show. It is very clear to the audience that the rape of Sansa is a bad thing, and other female characters in the show consistently have far more agency than women did in the time period being evoked. The most badass swordsman in the show is a woman.

Are you really upset about the rape, or are you upset that once again a bad thing has happened to a likable character? One of the things that makes Game of Thrones special is that the storylines don't just end up as protagonist wish fulfillment. Stories are more interesting if sometimes things turn out badly for the heroes, it's just that most TV has trained us to expect the good guys to always win.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think it is perfectly valid to question such lazy, "rape as character development" writing.

The creater of the series George Martin seems not to be upset by this scene.

Yeah, isn't it strange that men don't get upset with scenes like this. I wonder fucking why......

This is all absurd IMO and to get worked up over fiction.

Unfortunately such things are not fiction for some people and it could have been dealt with more sensitively.
Despite it not been a graphic scene it left little to the imagination. Considering how the scene was going it could have gone to credits sooner and we'd still know how things would have turned out.

When horrible things start getting censored by real life, then they can start censoring it in film. It is not the job of television to paint a rosy picture of reality.

People are getting outraged over portraying humans like they really act, and acted like even more in the period of history approximated by the show.

You know the founders of the Roman Empire decided they didn't have enough women, so they invited families over from a neighboring town, and then kidnapped and raped all their daughters? Game of Thrones needs to continue being honest about the way humans have historically behaved, even when it's awful.

 

[QCzar]

Art works that portray history, fantastical or otherwise, do not exist in some kind of "Magic History Bubble" that cuts them off from all questioning of the motives that truly underpin their depiction of it. They exist in the real world. The world of right now. They're not memories or artifacts from a time long passed. They're something made by people who live today, with today's troubles and today's culture.

Historicity is only one characteristic of a fictional drama, and a rather shallow one at that. In that sense it's no different than how good their stunt work or costume design is. What you convey as a narrative and the characters you use to convey it are profoundly more meaningful things.

The question then becomes: What is the creator's intent in depicting this brutality this way? What is he trying to tell us about Sansa Stark by having her suffer?

Remember, they don't answer to history. They answer to the people who watch their show. If their answer to some of those people is "you just don't get it...HISTORY!!!", then how can anyone be surprised when those people head for the exits?

 

[sidious618]

The influence of media on cultural values is very contextual and highly debatable, so just whipping that out like a holier than thou cudgel is ridiculous.

Are you serious? Ignoring whether or not the Sansa storyline works, the idea that art and culture don't affect society as a whole is ridiculous position, one that the entire history of the arts disproves. You can disagree with Robert Maxwell without claiming that art doesn't affect society because the dog simply ain't gonna hunt.

 

[Deckerd]

Is it the show for anyone? I mean really? Who likes this shit?

Why are you watching something you find repulsive then?

I don't watch it. I'm commenting on the crass diversions from the original stories to make them even more brutalising to female characters.

 

[Rincewiend]

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1URvDyzh8uI[/yt]

 

[Saul]

Unfortunately such things are not fiction for some people and it could have been dealt with more sensitively.

The same can be said for any number of issues... alcholism, drug abuse, cancer treatment, bullying, murder, war, etc. All of these could and do have profound effects on people. Should these issues be abandoned in film? If they are filmed, what is considered sensitive to one could be distasteful to another. It's a slippery slope. By now, everyone knows what they're possibly getting when sitting down to watch a GOT episode. If graphic things insult you, don't watch. And again, in the context of the story, the scene worked... and it could have been infinitely worse if they based it more closely on George's books. The writers certainly held back when they could have gone all in.

It is a slippery slope. I'm not talking about censorship of the real world though. The News wouldn't be entertaining then.
But still this is what? the 3rd time to feature such a scene? And again to a woman. When two guys are kissing onscreen in 'The Walking Dead' everyone is up in arms about it. But scenes involving violence against women is just how the world is...
Drowning babies and murder and all sorts of horrible things do happen in the world every day but I think sexual assault is one a little bit closer to home for a a lot of viewers, especially women, so if I a grown man can find something like that scene distressing I can't imagine how much worse it is for other people.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I think the scene worked fine. Yes it was rape. Yes it was Sansa deprived of all agency, a pawn in the hands of people more powerful than her as she has been since, frankly, birth. It's just gotten a whole lot worse since originally she was a playing piece of family and stood to gain from her place in the world. Now she is nothing but a surname to be used with no gain to herself other than being spared death.

Arya escaped this by divesting herself of her identity, as far as the world knew.

Bran escaped this by ascending to a new identity that superseded that of his family in lineage and ultimate importance.

Sansa has not given up who she is and the first chance she had to use her name to effect she did so, against Ramsay's stable girl. They all see her as a rather stupid and passive commodity and I think that will work against them in the end because she will escape too much close attention.

I don't think the rape was surprising or pushing any envelopes. It's her second time married off against her will for political gain. What did people expect of her wedding night?

It would never have been a wanted outcome for her and the extra level of horribleness is Ramsay himself and his sadism.

 

[theenglish]

Is it the show for anyone? I mean really? Who likes this shit?

Why are you watching something you find repulsive then?

I don't watch it. I'm commenting on the crass diversions from the original stories to make them even more brutalising to female characters.

Okay, my mistake. But how can you comment on something you haven't seen? And why are you posting in this thread that discusses episodes you are not interested in watching?

 

[QCzar]

I think the scene worked fine. Yes it was rape. Yes it was Sansa deprived of all agency, a pawn in the hands of people more powerful than her as she has been since, frankly, birth. It's just gotten a whole lot worse since originally she was a playing piece of family and stood to gain from her place in the world. Now she is nothing but a surname to be used with no gain to herself other than being spared death.

Arya escaped this by divesting herself of her identity, as far as the world knew.

Bran escaped this by ascending to a new identity that superseded that of his family in lineage and ultimate importance.

Sansa has not given up who she is and the first chance she had to use her name to effect she did so, against Ramsay's stable girl. They all see her as a rather stupid and passive commodity and I think that will work against them in the end because she will escape too much close attention.

I don't think the rape was surprising or pushing any envelopes. It's her second time married off against her will for political gain. What did people expect of her wedding night?

It would never have been a wanted outcome for her and the extra level of horribleness is Ramsay himself and his sadism.

I think this is a much better analysis than endlessly citing 'historical' treatment of women. I may not agree with all of it, but at least it's focused on the characters and plot.

Lord knows I don't want a sanitized GoT and if the occasional rape scene is part of depicting its general moral grayness then so be it. But there is a lot of gray area between honestly portraying such awfulness as a part of the story and using that as a license to sensationalize awful shit.

I'm still processing which side of the line this scene is on. I think it does show what it was intended to concerning Sansa, but it does seem gratuitous the way it is depicted. None of what we've deduced of Sansa's situation requires that she be brutalized on screen in that way.

 

[Ethros]

To talk about something other than rape, the fight scene of Bronn & Jaimie against the Sand Snakes seemes to have taken a lot of criticism on some of the facebook pages I peruse. People saying that it was of really poor quality, like from an episde of Power Rangers


[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG2o1GBZj1A[/yt]


I can't say I really noticed to be honest. Watching it again it doesn't overly blow me away, but I don't know if it's particularly bad. Opinions?

The Sand Snakes plot line is pretty meh though. Oberyn Martell died in combat fair and square. He wasn't forced into it in any way. And frankly he died because of his own foolishness and fucking around talking to the Mountain. The Sand Snakes need to get over it.