Game Of Thrones Season 5 TV Only Discussion (Spoilers)

[sidious618]

Examining the reality of medieval relationships, what knights and princes were actually like as opposed to the legends, is something Martin's books have always been interested in. The show, too, but to a slightly lesser extent due to the rushed nature of it. Sansa's rape on her wedding night is not an inherently bad idea for this story to explore and, in general, I thought the scene itself was well handled by focusing on reaction as opposed to the act itself which removed some level of exploitation, something the show has always struggled with.

The problem is that the show has repeatedly botched the gender dynamics in the past, especially with the Cersei/Jaime scene, but also with the consistent exploitative way women are filmed nude as opposed to men.

So for this to work you have to trust the show and because of the show's history I don't think the audience does trust the writers to handle this well. I can't really blame them.

 

[Deckerd]

Without reading back the past few pages I'm guessing the show has taken a massive turn away from the books.

 

[.:: TSN ::.]

Without reading back the past few pages I'm guessing the show has taken a massive turn away from the books.

Yes, and at the same time (possibly) no.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Without reading back the past few pages I'm guessing the show has taken a massive turn away from the books.

Jeyne Poole's story was transplanted onto Sansa, with less than stellar results.

 

[theenglish]

But did the show GO TOO FAR?!?!?!

Seriously, CNN needs to stop saying the exact same thing every single time any TV show gets a little risky. It's boring, weak-kneed and cheesy. This week I have seen them do it for both Saturday Night Live and Game of Thrones and it's the third time this year I've seen them do it for Saturday Night Live. (CNN is always on in the break room at my work so I am exposed to this).

Did the show GO TOO FAR?!?!?!?! (Keeping too far as vague as possible without saying anything about the direction I am asking it went too far in.)

This is not new either. People react this way every time a television show pushes the envelope a little.

The whole point of SNL is to push the limits of what it can do on broadcast television. In fact, it is much tamer now than when it started in the seventies.

Lucille Ball was accused of going too far. The late sixties and early seventies were a hugely revolutionary time for television programs to do with racial and sexual issues and people were scandalized. In the 80s Miami Vice (for example) always shocked with its intense, stylized violence and blatant in your face sexuality. In the 90s Seinfeld had an entire episode about masturbation, Will and Grace dealt with homosexuality, and the Sopranos debuted.

 

[DarthTom]

This whole rape scene seems to have gotten a stir with some feminist groups, quitting the show.

This whole stance seems perplexing to me and somewhat hypocritical considering the show also depicts a woman who enlists an army of young men who were mutilated and castrated as young boys and Daney doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

Also, why have so many people lost touch with reality that G o T if about fictional characters in a fictional mid-evil Kingdom. The show IMO is in no way glorifying rape. In fact it should be clear to even the most obtuse of viewers that Ramsey is depicted as an extremely evil person / character. For gods sake he castrates a man and makes him sleep in a kennel with the dogs.

 

[JoeZhang]

This whole rape scene seems to have gotten a stir with some feminist groups, quitting the show.

This whole stance seems perplexing to me and somewhat hypocritical considering the show also depicts a woman who enlists an army of young men who were mutilated and castrated as young boys and Daney doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

Well in the west which is the audience this TV show is aimed at - rape culture is a significant problem and the castration of young boys who are forced to serve in fictional armies isn't.

Also, why have so many people lost touch with reality that G o T if about fictional characters in a fictional mid-evil Kingdom. The show IMO is in no way glorifying rape. In fact it should be clear to even the most obtuse of viewers that Ramsey is depicted as an extremely evil person / character. For gods sake he castrates a man and makes him sleep in a kennel with the dogs.

Yes we know that Ramsey is evil, we already know that - thus the scene adds nothing to our knowledge of the character . Ramsey rapes her in that graphic way because the writers want him to - he's not real bur rape culture is and the fixation in drama on using rape as a way to grab attention.

 

[DarthTom]

Well in the west which is the audience this TV show is aimed at - rape culture is a significant problem and the castration of young boys who are forced to serve in fictional armies isn't.

Perhaps, but the point is the show depicts intense sexual and phsyical violence.

And if we want to get up in arms over Hollywood and violence how about the more real problems related to gun violence and the ~ 10,000 people who die every year from it. Yet, some of the most popular films/Tv shows depict intense gun violence which is glorified to some degree whereas it's clear at at least to me that Ramsey's rape of Sansa is not.

For example the other super popular show on TV right now what depicts intense violence - The Walking Dead - in a somewhat recent episode depicted Carl murder a teenage boy and somewhat justify his actions. Where was the outrage?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

@theenglish

Oh yes, people have always reacted to shows that push the envelope, but what I'm making fun of is the very generic and predictable way CNN talks about it. The same way they talk about everything really, they're not a news station, they're an open mic for both mainstream sides of every divisive issue.

It is true that some television shows play in to rape culture, but I don't believe Game of Thrones is one of them. It's kind of like you can't really get mad at Mad Men for the unequal portrayal of gender. It's the 1960s. The average romantic comedy has a far more sexist portrayal of women than Game of Thrones, designing their personalities around male wish fulfillment.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I wonder what sort of orbit this planet has around its sun, such that winter and summer both last years. And I wonder if it has occurred to anybody to travel to the other hemisphere.

Based on the Wiki entry on Westeros under the "Seasons and Climate" section at the bottom:

George R. R. Martin has stated that the explanation for the world's unusual climate is magical in nature and will be revealed at the end of the series.

I don't know what scientific example could fit within Newtonian orbital mechanics to explain such a phenomenon. There may be a burned out neutron star somewhere in the system or micro-black hole; something with an extremely high gravity well; far enough away to not capture or collide with the world they're on, but close enough to drastically perturb its orbit every few years.

Then there's the interesting Dothraki myth-origin story of the dragons, mentioned in Season 1, where there was apparently a second moon that was shattered when it got "too close to the sun" and it cracked open, letting out all the dragons. Makes me wonder if the "sun gadget" in the intro is more than just a stylized piece with artistic license, and they're all living in a bloody Dyson Sphere with the sun floating about randomly, acting as an unreliable and possibly malfunctioning heat source!

And what the hell is a "red comet" anyway, and what physical properties could it possibly possess to turn its emission tail red?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

This whole rape scene seems to have gotten a stir with some feminist groups, quitting the show.

This whole stance seems perplexing to me and somewhat hypocritical considering the show also depicts a woman who enlists an army of young men who were mutilated and castrated as young boys and Daney doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

Also, why have so many people lost touch with reality that G o T if about fictional characters in a fictional mid-evil Kingdom. The show IMO is in no way glorifying rape. In fact it should be clear to even the most obtuse of viewers that Ramsey is depicted as an extremely evil person / character. For gods sake he castrates a man and makes him sleep in a kennel with the dogs.

This is probably one of the dumbest posts on the issues involved that I could imagine.

JoeZhang is correct that rape is a real, contemporary issue. That's part of it.

Another part is that, out of all the characters on this show, Sansa has been perpetually deprived of agency and abused by men of power. The series finally took her arc to a place where it seemed like she might get to make decisions for herself--but she doesn't. The writers see having her raped by Ramsay as a form of character growth. This is her buckling down, gritting her teeth and enduring horror in order to reclaim her homeland. Odds are, nothing of the sort is happening, and even if it is, it is in no way necessary for her character development for her to be raped. She already knows how cruel men can be in this world. It's certainly not needed to impress upon the audience how terrible Ramsay is. An entire season of him torturing and mutilating Theon did plenty with that.

Based on the writers' statements, they only really did this for shock value, and because it was something they hadn't done to Sansa yet.

I think it is perfectly valid to question such lazy, "rape as character development" writing.

"Why are people outraged about x but not y?" is a pretty pathetic derail, even by your standards.

Yes, indeed, why are we not concerned about things happening on an entirely different show I don't even watch?

 

[JoeZhang]

[
And if we want to get up in arms over Hollywood and violence how about the more real problems related to gun violence and the ~ 10,000 people who die every year from it.

!but what about...! is where people without an argument run to - this discussion is about the depiction of rape.

 

[DarthTom]

I think it is perfectly valid to question such lazy, "rape as character development" writing.

The creater of the series George Martin seems not to be upset by this scene.

Regarding, 'de-rail,' um now. I just don't get people's selective outrage over issues.

Oh and please stop the ad hominin attacks. I wasn't attacking any poster in this forum but rather the outrage from several groups and notably Senator Claire McCaskill over this scene. This is all absurd IMO and to get worked up over fiction.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I think it is perfectly valid to question such lazy, "rape as character development" writing.

The creater of the series George Martin seems not to be upset by this scene.

So?

Regarding, 'de-rail,' um now. I just don't get people's selective outrage over issues.

You don't understand why I care about something that happened in a show I watch, and not about something in a show I don't watch? Are you serious?

Oh and please stop the ad hominin attacks. I wasn't attacking any poster in this forum but rather the outrage from several groups and notably Senator Claire McCaskill over this scene. This is all absurd IMO and to get worked up over fiction.

So you attacked a whole group of individuals and you're upset that your post got attacked. OK. Speaking of hypocrisy.

By the way, "it's fiction" is and always has been a bullshit defense. Fiction is part of the culture. Culture matters.

Go learn about the influence of media on cultural values and maybe don't post about this again until you have clue one what you're talking about.

 

[Booji]

This whole rape scene seems to have gotten a stir with some feminist groups, quitting the show.

This whole stance seems perplexing to me and somewhat hypocritical considering the show also depicts a woman who enlists an army of young men who were mutilated and castrated as young boys and Daney doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

Also, why have so many people lost touch with reality that G o T if about fictional characters in a fictional mid-evil Kingdom. The show IMO is in no way glorifying rape. In fact it should be clear to even the most obtuse of viewers that Ramsey is depicted as an extremely evil person / character. For gods sake he castrates a man and makes him sleep in a kennel with the dogs.

Agreed. It's funny how much hoopla this "rape" makes, yet a couple seasons ago you have babies being drowned to death and having their throats slit... and no one says a word. There is a whole lot of emo going around

 

[Booji]

Without reading back the past few pages I'm guessing the show has taken a massive turn away from the books.

Jeyne Poole's story was transplanted onto Sansa, with less than stellar results.

I disagree. By transplanting the story to Sansa, you now have a character you actually care about facing these problems (and no need to bring in yet another character) and the story progresses better. Following the book on this would have been a tedious, boring mess.

 

[Ethros]

There were comments earlier this year from Alfie Allen that there'd be some dark moments this year, and Sophie Turner saying her mum visited the set on a particularly awkward filming day. So then when it was revealed Sansa was to marry Ramsey a few episodes it was fairly obvious this was coming. I actually just rewatched the scene again and it's not even remotely as graphic as I'd imagined (knowing what Ramsey gets up to)


Two seasons ago they literally stabbed a pregnant woman to death, showing it all on-screen. Through her stomach. Repeatedly.
Don't tell me you're bailing out on the show now you massive hypocrites.

 

[Deckerd]

It sounds like a lousy idea. The whole point about Sansa in the books is that she survives Joff's torture and being a pawn in Cersei's (and everyone else's) political shenanigans more or less sane and intact. It hasn't ended yet but she and her sister are about the only women in the books so far that haven't been raped, mutilated or killed. I think it's for a reason. The story started with the Starks and I believe it will end with the Starks and they will be sufficiently themselves albeit tempered by time and circumstance. The idea that women are made stronger by rape is about as corrupt as suggesting children would be made stronger by the same treatment and I can guarantee if child rape had been a feature of GoT it wouldn't have got past draft stage. It's unacceptable in this century for rape to be a natural course of events in fiction or anyfuckingwhere.

Oh and in case anyone hasn't pointed it out yet, Dany wasn't raped by her husband on their wedding night. In fact he went out of his way to arouse her properly.

 

[theenglish]

Regarding the Sansa scene, it was one of the most disturbing things I have seen on television even though nothing was shown on screen.

That said, this story is all about power and the how the powerful treat the weak. It is based on the Wars of the Roses and has a strong "historical" influence even though it is fantasy--the brutality in the series probably pales in comparison to historical reality. In North America and Europe the sensitivity toward sexual violence has only improved in recent years and things are much better for women than in many other parts of the world. Rape is still used as a weapon of war in many conflict zones and in many cultures it is still perfectly acceptable for a man to force himself upon his wife. Look at the stories from various conflicts in war torn African nations, the taking of the girls in Nigeria, the forced marriages in middle eastern countries and India, the raping of western journalists or soldiers. These are all examples of using rape as a means of showing power over another human being.

In the context of the story, Ramsey is not merely being cruel--he is demonstrating his power over the life of another human being, something that has been part of his character from the beginning. Yes, it was horrific and difficult to watch but it was supposed to be so. This type of violence and horror has been intrinsic to the show since season 1.

Many other acts have happened that are just as horrific, and that happen as well in today's society. The murder of Rob's pregnant wife, for example. The torture of Theon. The murder of babies. etc.

People can certainly stop watching the show because of Sunday's episode but my guess is that they are doing so because it was the straw that broke the camel's back and they have been uncomfortable with the level of violence for some time now.

 

[Ethros]

Oh and in case anyone hasn't pointed it out yet, Dany wasn't raped by her husband on their wedding night. In fact he went out of his way to arouse her properly.

Is that in the book?
To be fair I was only talking about the show. I don't know what other peoples sex lives are like, but for me I wouldn't really be a fan if when I take a girls clothes off she hurridly tries to cover herself, and then as we "get down to it" she's there crying her eyes out.
But hey that's just me.