Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[ATimson]

You must have missed the part where Bobbi specifically instructed the Gonzalez!SHIELD team members to use icers only and to make sure not to use deadly force against Skye, as Skye is a fellow SHIELD agent.

Yeah, Calderon decided to try to kill her instead. He was disobeying Bobbi's orders by doing so -- and Bobbi, it is very important to note, warned Skye by calling out to her, thereby allowing Skye to take defensive action to save herself.

Bobbi did give that order. But Calderon's not the only one who disobeyed; the first person Skye ran into from the team was holding a non-icer pistol on Skye (and the sound from that is what got Calderon's attention).

Maybe it was just the two of them and not the entire team; but the impression I got was that Bobbi's the only one interested in using non-lethal weaponry.

It also didn't look like the various mooks who were part of the assault on Coulson's base had icers (aren't there normally blue greeblies on the icers?), though since they didn't shoot any rounds that I remember it's hard to be sure.

Is it dramatically different than our team going after Donny Gill in the beginning of the season to prevent him from falling into Hydra hands?

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, so I may be hazy on the details. But I thought that they were trying to recruit/capture, and that Skye only sniped him as a last resort after he was a clear and present danger who was going to freeze the boat with everybody on it?

Gill's the one who started/escalated the fight to that level. Skye was trying to run away, yes, but she didn't attack the incoming team until one of them literally held a (non-icer) pistol to her head.

In Gill's case, it would have been nice if Skye could use an icer. But a) I don't think they have a sniper rifle version of it, and b) even if they did, it would have had the same end result - he'd just fall overboard unconscious and drown, instead of dying and falling overboard.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What little sympathy I had left after their unprovoked attack on Coulson's base was promptly undone by Agent Francis's team going hunting for Skye. They weren't trying to arrest her, they were trying to murder her.

But Calderon was acting in defiance of Bobbi's clear orders to use ICERs only. So his actions do not represent the intentions of the whole group. We're not supposed to think of them as a monolithic unit. There's a range of attitudes within it, from the noble intentions of Bobbi and Mack and the benevolence of Weaver to the hard-nosed and intolerant attitudes of Calderon, with Gonzales occupying a gray area in the middle.

Bobbie does not outrank Calderon. Maybe they all get an equal vote, or maybe Gonzalez gets 2 or three votes? But Calderona and Bobbie seem on the same level. More so, you can't change the rules of engagement/mission parameters after the point of no return.

Mockingbird had been in that plane for two to 6 hours with these ground pounders, and only nooooooow mentions that non lethal weapons should be used, despite whatever orders had been given when they were assigned weapons by their quartermaster before they left the Iliad.

Did they even have icers?

The mission was set and planned, which should have taken hours to prep, maybe a day, but Bobbie signed on in the last minutes before they left the base, without establishing herself as mission leader above the clear parameters set in the mission briefing hours earlier, if Zero Dark 30 is any indication on how these things work.

Deciding that everyone holding a gun planning on shooting Skye in the face should use an icer all of 2 minutes before the ship lands and they engage the Inhuman more sounds like it is Bobbie who was barking shite with no authority to a group of soldiers who know what they are doing, and are following the orders they were given from a CO who had the moral authority to give those orders.

Bobbie wasn't supposed to be there, so no order not to kill Skye was supposed to have been given.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

What little sympathy I had left after their unprovoked attack on Coulson's base was promptly undone by Agent Francis's team going hunting for Skye. They weren't trying to arrest her, they were trying to murder her.

But Calderon was acting in defiance of Bobbi's clear orders to use ICERs only. So his actions do not represent the intentions of the whole group. We're not supposed to think of them as a monolithic unit. There's a range of attitudes within it, from the noble intentions of Bobbi and Mack and the benevolence of Weaver to the hard-nosed and intolerant attitudes of Calderon, with Gonzales occupying a gray area in the middle.

Bobbie does not outrank Calderon. Maybe they all get an equal vote, or maybe Gonzalez gets 2 or three votes? But Calderona and Bobbie seem on the same level. More so, you can't change the rules of engagement/mission parameters after the point of no return.

Mockingbird had been in that plane for two to 6 hours with these ground pounders, and only nooooooow mentions that non lethal weapons should be used, despite whatever orders had been given when they were assigned weapons by their quartermaster before they left the Iliad.

Did they even have icers?

The mission was set and planned, which should have taken hours to prep, maybe a day, but Bobbie signed on in the last minutes before they left the base, without establishing herself as mission leader above the clear parameters set in the mission briefing hours earlier, if Zero Dark 30 is any indication on how these things work.

Deciding that everyone holding a gun planning on shooting Skye in the face should use an icer all of 2 minutes before the ship lands and they engage the Inhuman more sounds like it is Bobbie who was barking shite with no authority to a group of soldiers who know what they are doing, and are following the orders they were given from a CO who had the moral authority to give those orders.

Bobbie wasn't supposed to be there, so no order not to kill Skye was supposed to have been given.

I understood her order more as a reminder than an original instruction.

And they have icer sniper rifles. Ward used one in the pilot episode to take out Mike Petersen, it was just the earlier night-night gun version.

 

[Christopher]

It also didn't look like the various mooks who were part of the assault on Coulson's base had icers (aren't there normally blue greeblies on the icers?), though since they didn't shoot any rounds that I remember it's hard to be sure.

It was quite clearly stated in dialogue that Gonzales's team had not killed anyone in their raid. And Mack got himself nearly killed saving Fitz.

And the flashbacks made it very, very clear that these are not evil people. They're as dedicated to saving SHIELD as Coulson is. They just disagree about how. Of course, Calderon wasn't there in the flashbacks. He's the only one in the group that's been portrayed as unsympathetic. He's the exception, not the rule.

 

[kirk55555]

.... you are not watching Agents of SHIELD. I'm not sure what doppleganger television program you are watching, but Agents of SHIELD had a really important scene this week where Simmons made very clear the fact that she loves Skye and wants to protect her.

Yes, she is afraid of Skye's powers. She is afraid that those powers, incapable of being controlled, might harm others and/or might harm Skye. Yes, this is making Skye feel alienated. Yes, Simmons is arguably mis-handling the situation.

This does not mean she hates Skye.

Well, I don't know what you're watching, but its obviously not Agents of SHIELD. Simmons could not be more clear on what she wants to do with super powered people. Basically, kill if she has to, or take a page out of Whitehall's book and experiment on them. The only difference is Simmons wants to "cure" them by studying them, like the idiots in X-Men 3. If there were mutants in this world, her actions would be clear cut Trask behavior. I don't know why making them inhumans givers her a pass. She has shown a few moments of humanity, but Simmons has mostly just acted like the a-holes in your average X-Men story. She'd probably build the sentinels herself if she had Fitz's mechanical skills, all while justifying it as not being extremely evil.

Why does it look like a decent possibility? Because she was willing to provide medical treatment to someone who was injured?

She hasn't been particularly loyal to the group since at least HYDRA's attack, and she certainly hasn't agreed with Coulson about much this season. She was also way too friendly with the woman from the academy. She's been nothing but bloodthirsty, prejudiced and fairly obtuse since the season started, so I can see her joining the fake SHIELD. Like I said, her take down of Mockingbird could be the first step to redemption for her, but I can easily see her joining the fake SHIELD, especially since it seems to agree with her about what should happen to super powered people.

 

[Sci]

.... you are not watching Agents of SHIELD. I'm not sure what doppleganger television program you are watching, but Agents of SHIELD had a really important scene this week where Simmons made very clear the fact that she loves Skye and wants to protect her.

Yes, she is afraid of Skye's powers. She is afraid that those powers, incapable of being controlled, might harm others and/or might harm Skye. Yes, this is making Skye feel alienated. Yes, Simmons is arguably mis-handling the situation.

This does not mean she hates Skye.

Well, I don't know what you're watching, but its obviously not Agents of SHIELD. Simmons could not be more clear on what she wants to do with super powered people. Basically, kill if she has to, or take a page out of Whitehall's book and experiment on them.

You are asserting that she actively wishes to either kill superpowered persons, or to conduct cruel experiments on them. The evidence from the show does not support either assertion.

In the immediate aftermath of Raina's transformation, when the team had no idea how it happened or what caused it or what it meant, Simmons wanted Coulson to consider that killing Raina may be necessary as an act of self-defense against what might have been a dangerous, communicable disease. The hypothesis that they were facing a dangerous, communicable disease is understandable given the lack of information Simmons has: Remember, she had no idea what the Terrigenesis Mists were, how they worked, or why they transformed Skye and Raina but not Trip. You are assuming that this was an active desire to harm superpowered persons because you are projecting your knowledge of what the Inhumans are onto Simmons. But Simmons did not yet know any of that. She only knew that an alien tech killed one person and transformed another; she had no way of knowing that this wasn't a dangerous, communicable disease, and that was as reasonable a hypothesis as any given her limited information.

She has, since then, not once advocated killing superpowered persons. Considering that the team has since received some limited information about what the Inhumans are, I think that is notable.

As for your assertion that she wishes to conduct cruel experiments on people a la Whitehall/Reinhardt... I cannot think of a single scene to establish this, whatsoever.

The only difference is Simmons wants to "cure" them by studying them, like the idiots in X-Men 3.

It is true that Simmons does not yet understand that the Inhumans are supposed to have powers, that this is their natural state and that is is benign. She knows that there are Humans who were biologically altered by ancient Kree with the intent of using them as weapons; she does not know that the Inhumans have a functional community and are as benevolent as any other Human community.

I'll certainly agree with you that she has some prejudices. But her prejudices are caused by a combination of concern for others' welfare, and by ignorance.

Like I said before, if we were to compare Simmons to someone who's against homosexuality, it would be more accurate to compare her to someone whose culture has only just discovered that homosexuality exists and has no way of knowing how to fit it into their understanding of the world yet. Simmons's prejudices are a function of the fact that knowledge of superpowers is new and almost no one really understands them yet.

Give her time and see if she comes around.

She'd probably build the sentinels herself if she had Fitz's mechanical skills, all while justifying it as not being extremely evil.

Why does it look like a decent possibility? Because she was willing to provide medical treatment to someone who was injured?

She hasn't been particularly loyal to the group since at least HYDRA's attack, and she certainly hasn't agreed with Coulson about much this season.

I beg your pardon? Are you saying that dissent is disloyalty? Thank you, Joe McCarthy.

Simmons has been completely loyal. She has, for instance, never intentionally compromised a Coulson!SHIELD operation. She has never given an advantage to the enemy. She has consistently sought victory for Coulson!SHIELD forces and has risked her life to do so on numerous occasions.

And, of course, when faced with an infiltrator whom she had considered a friend, she risked her safety to subdue that infiltrator -- Bobbi.

So, you're completely full of shit here.

She was also way too friendly with the woman from the academy.

She had been a longstanding friend. And not once did she say that she thought their choice to infiltrate and attack the Playground was justified or appropriate.

ETA: And I think you should note that she consulted Fitz before deciding to provide medical treatment to Mack. And Fitz told her she should. So she acted to provide medical care to an injured man--who had injured himself to protect a member of Coulson!SHIELD--only after consulting with a thoroughly loyal and pro-superpowers teammate. Or are you going to claim Fitz is evil, too, now? End edit.

She's been nothing but bloodthirsty, prejudiced and fairly obtuse since the season started, so I can see her joining the fake SHIELD. Like I said, her take down of Mockingbird could be the first step to redemption for her, but I can easily see her joining the fake SHIELD, especially since it seems to agree with her about what should happen to super powered people.

You just enjoy attributing the most ridiculously malicious intentions to anyone who's wrong. It's absurd the way anyone who has an issue they ought to work through and grow from instead becomes for you an embodiment of evil.

ETA:

If Simmons hates Skye, why did she go to all the trouble of trying to develop an advanced technology to heal all of her fractures? Why did she tell Skye that she cares about her over the SHIELD!Skype?

 

[Silvercrest]

She hasn't been particularly loyal to the group since at least HYDRA's attack, and she certainly hasn't agreed with Coulson about much this season.

I beg your pardon? Are you saying that dissent is disloyalty? Thank you, Joe McCarthy.

To misquote Stan: "Back SHIELD, or else you must yield!"

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And yes, they have been shown to have some unlikeable traits, but they were downright heroic in the flashbacks.

Which is kind of undercut by the fact that they come off as pretty hypocritical.

They preach about transparency, and accountability but infiltrate Coulson's SHIELD instead of just talking to them, they give no indication that they aren't just another rouge SHIELD group that is unaccountable to anyone. They claim to be the "Real SHIELD" but are pretty much just a group that formed in the aftermath of The Winter Solider and as such don't really have more of a claim to the name than Coulson's SHIELD. The talk about doing things differently and not just having one person in charge but as Coulson pointed out Gonzalez is the only one he's meeting with so he comes off as pretty much running the thing.

Hell they pretty much come off as having a biased opinion of Coulson and ignore anything that conflicts with it.

They also seem more concerned about their moral crusade against Fury's secrets than dealing with threats like HYDRA.

 

[kirk55555]

You are asserting that she actively wishes to either kill superpowered persons, or to conduct cruel experiments on them. The evidence from the show does not support either assertion.

But Simmons did not yet know any of that. She only knew that an alien tech killed one person and transformed another; she had no way of knowing that this wasn't a dangerous, communicable disease, and that was as reasonable a hypothesis as any given her limited information.

Oh, yes, a super power giving Virus was definitely the rational explanation She definitely talked about doing a lot of tests, and she would have kept Skye locked up forever if she could have. And she obviously wants to kill super powered people, because she wouldn't shut up about killing Raina, and she wasn't saying it because of something Raina had done to Coulson ages ago.

Give her time and see if she comes around.

Like I said, the fact that she didn't instantly join Mockingbird, is a point for her, its the first good thing she's done since Skye transformed.

I beg your pardon? Are you saying that dissent is disloyalty? Thank you, Joe McCarthy.

No, I'm not saying that. But, the dissent certainly makes her seem more on Fake SHIELD's side, and she was definitely unsubtle about how far her ideas about things differ from Coulson. If Coulson's group was the only SHIELD, it would probably be something she'd change her mind on if she was around Skye enough. But now I can easily see her betraying Coulson, since Gonzales's team is doing exactly what she wants.

Simmons has been completely loyal. She has, for instance, never intentionally compromised a Coulson!SHIELD operation. She has never given an advantage to the enemy. She has consistently sought victory for Coulson!SHIELD forces and has risked her life to do so on numerous occasions.

And, of course, when faced with an infiltrator whom she had considered a friend, she risked her safety to subdue that infiltrator -- Bobbi.

So, you're completely full of shit here.

I'm not saying that she is against Coulson, but I doubt she would have supported him if he started getting too friendly with a super powered person. I will point out that, for all they knew when they first confronted Mac/MB, Mockingbird/Mac could have been HYDRA, so it would make sense for Simmons to take her out, even if Simmons isn't super loyal to Coulson. Simmons is a lot of things, but even I'll admit she's not a HYDRA supporter.

She was also way too friendly with the woman from the academy.

She had been a longstanding friend. And not once did she say that she thought their choice to infiltrate and attack the Playground was justified or appropriate.

ETA: And I think you should note that she consulted Fitz before deciding to provide medical treatment to Mack. And Fitz told her she should. So she acted to provide medical care to an injured man--who had injured himself to protect a member of Coulson!SHIELD--only after consulting with a thoroughly loyal and pro-superpowers teammate. Or are you going to claim Fitz is evil, too, now? End edit.

Fitz, if anything, is too sympathetic towards evil people, showing Mac more compassion than Simmons has shown Skye, but I don't hold it against him. Simmons would have helped Mac anyway (although I wish Mac had just never recovered, at least his death might have redeemed him a little).

As for her friend, its like the HYDRA thing. The academy agent is no longer a friend to a real SHIELD agent, she's just like Mockingbird or Ward. A traitor to SHIELD, and one that needs to be put away, not cooperated with. Simmons should be looking for a way to disable her and escape, not look at a traitor's injuries. At the very least she should have told her off, or said something against her.

If Simmons hates Skye, why did she go to all the trouble of trying to develop an advanced technology to heal all of her fractures? Why did she tell Skye that she cares about her over the SHIELD!Skype?

Simmons developed gloves that suppress the powers she hates, and also causes negative effects to Skye (skye complained about beeing dizzy after putting them on), which would make Skye easier to put down if needed. As for her talking to Skye, that could be a bunch of things. A cover so that Skye will start trusting her, lip service for anyone who could be listening to their call, and yes, maybe even a sign that Simmons might grow out of being a bigoted idiot.

Like I said, taking out Mockingbird, and looking at Fitz before helping Mac, could be the start of Simmons redemption. If she completely recants her bigotry against meta humans I'll go back to liking her, but she hasn't reached that point yet, and I can see her going in many different, bad, directions.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Is it dramatically different than our team going after Donny Gill in the beginning of the season to prevent him from falling into Hydra hands?

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, so I may be hazy on the details. But I thought that they were trying to recruit/capture, and that Skye only sniped him as a last resort after he was a clear and present danger who was going to freeze the boat with everybody on it?

Gill's the one who started/escalated the fight to that level. Skye was trying to run away, yes, but she didn't attack the incoming team until one of them literally held a (non-icer) pistol to her head.

In Gill's case, it would have been nice if Skye could use an icer. But a) I don't think they have a sniper rifle version of it, and b) even if they did, it would have had the same end result - he'd just fall overboard unconscious and drown, instead of dying and falling overboard.

It was capture or kill to prevent him from falling into the hands of Hydra as a weapon. When it was clear his brainwashing was taking over, he was killed. It was arguably justified as defense of their team, but it was also shooting someone who clearly didn't intend to do wrong-doing.

 

[Photoman15]

You're seeing things that are not there.

 

[Sci]

What's it like living in a world where anybody who's not perfect is in fact evil?

 

[cylkoth]

I'm not saying that she is against Coulson, but I doubt she would have supported him if he started getting too friendly with a super powered person. I

Uh, Coulson's best pals with the Avengers. Simmons has never shown any disdain for supers, alien, natural born or acquired. She may be driven by revenge, for Trip's death, and over HYDRA's infiltration and it's new desire to create 'gifteds', but she's not at heart, an extrememist out to send the muties- enhanced, to death camps.

 

[kitik]

Uh, Coulson's best pals with the Avengers. Simmons has never shown any disdain for supers, alien, natural born or acquired.

Wasn't there some scene in the first season where she was acting all dreamy over Captain America or Thor?

 

[Kor]

I don't feel like reading through 131 pages of posts, so apologies if this has been asked already.

Does it seem like Fitz getting back to his normal self? Has there been any explanation?

Kor

 

[LaxScrutiny]

In Gill's case, it would have been nice if Skye could use an icer. But a) I don't think they have a sniper rifle version of it...

Ward used a rifle version on Peterson, I think that was the first time they used an icer.

 

[The Old Mixer]

About Skinhead setting his phaser for kill against orders...this is what you get when the origin of your SHIELD faction is based on disobeying orders.

I neglected to mention how I was cringing during SlimSHIELD's origin moment, when Bobbi asserted that SHIELD should be a democracy. I suspect that she's going to be getting a hard lesson in that area.

If there is some reconciliation and joining of forces in store, I imagine that they'll go with the idea of keeping one central leader (Coulson) who's accountable to the committee, but still has executive authority and expects his orders to be carried out without giving everyone a vote.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

About Skinhead setting his phaser for kill against orders...this is what you get when the origin of your SHIELD faction is based on disobeying orders...

Hey, it's a democracy, Skinhead is as much in charge as anyone.

 

[DWF]

About Skinhead setting his phaser for kill against orders...this is what you get when the origin of your SHIELD faction is based on disobeying orders...

Hey, it's a democracy, Skinhead is as much in charge as anyone.

And really since when is SHIELD a democracy?

 

[Karzak]

More than ever, I am convinced that Whitehall brainwashed Simmons earlier in the season while she was undercover. I'm guessing Season 2 will end with some kind of epic victory for Coulson and company, only to have Jemma go and shoot him or something like that.

That, and I cannot stand Hunter.

So, what, she is a cylon now?
What is it with Adama showing up and all these comparisons to BSG starting the same moment?

I've suspected it ever since they introduced the whole "Compliance" schtick, and ever since Jemma has had very little to do beyond lab work and such. It's just out of left field enough that it would be a shock but also the pieces have already been planted that the writers could get away with it.

Season 3 would then be about Jemma being rehabilitated, while Fitz either disappears like she did at the beginning of season 2 or he sticks around and tries to help her.