Person of Interest Season 4

[Locutus of Bored]

Here's some info about Sarah Shahi's status on the show relating to her pregnancy (It doesn't mention specific plot points from the show, but I'm spoiler coding it because it could indirectly give away the outcome of upcoming episodes):

Spoiler: Shahi EW Interview

How do you put it into words, the feeling here as you depart the show for such a happy reason?
...

I don’t know if this is Shaw’s end, per se, because the 61 million dollar question is, is she or isn’t she dead? But given what’s going on in my life right now, it would definitely be a challenge to go back with two infants and try to be present as the character and to meet the demands of the show. But who knows? It’s definitely a goodbye for now, but not goodbye forever.

How did you break the news to the producers?

I just kept hitting them, like one after another. At first it was, “Guys, I’m pregnant,” and they were like, “Woah, okay, this is great, how far along are you?” And then: “Hey guys, just went to the doctor, I’m having twins.” “Woah! What! Oh shit!” So the whammies just kept coming for them. They’ve been wonderful about it, and they’re all fathers themselves so they understand what blessings children are, but it did take some adjusting. As far as the show goes, I do 99 percent of my own stunts all the time, so it took a little re-wiring in terms of what was safe for me to do, what was not safe for me to do. There are things that on paper didn’t seem like a stunt. When you’re carrying two human beings inside your belly, sometimes just walking or standing is a stunt.

Was there any conversation about writing the pregnancy into the show?

There were. Even through creatively I didn’t have anything to do with how Shaw goes, I just kept stressing that I wanted to honor her in every way that I could, and I didn’t want them to write me behind a desk. I didn’t want them to lessen Shaw’s abilities in any way because of my physical inabilities. I just kept stressing to them, please please please let’s honor her the right way. I still want to go balls out. Don’t hold back just because I’m pregnant.

What is the right way to honor her?

Her going out the way she did is pretty perfect for her. I always viewed this character as somebody who had a death wish on her. She’s such an adrenaline junkie and she’s got an appetite for violence. She will definitely put herself in that situation. It’s fun for her. If she doesn’t do that, she’s not living. She looked death squarely in the eye. She had a hint of a smile in her eyes. And then it just went to black. I think for her, that was the perfect ending. If Shaw could pick anyway to go, that’s the way she would want to go.

Tell me about that big kiss between Root and Shaw. Was that purely for the fans?
...

But yeah, to be honest, I felt like it was more for the fans. The one thing that the producers and I did kind of disagree on was they felt like Shaw knew she was going to die. She’s against ten Samaritan operatives, there’s no way she’s getting out of this alive, and that kiss was a goodbye kiss. Whereas I didn’t see it like that. I don’t think Shaw goes into any situation going, okay, I’m going to die today. I feel like the stronger choice is to struggle to live, and so I felt like that kiss was just like, “Oh, shut the f–k up already, Root!” I felt like it was more trying to calm down a pestering child, if anything. “Okay, fine, I’ll give you what you want, now be quiet.” Just one of those moments. But again, I also felt like it was more for the fans than anything.

So, the million dollar question once more: Is Shaw gone for good?

This episode is the second episode in a three-part series, and that is going to be the question moving on. That is what the team is going to have to figure out. Is she alive? Did Samaritan capture her? Where is she? The rule in TV is if you don’t see a body, then they’re not dead.

If hypothetically you did return and Shaw wasn’t dead, do you have an idea of your own timeline?

As far as my own timeline, it’s one of those things where you say that you’re having twins and you automatically see the fear of God in people’s eyes. Most people know what it’s like to handle one baby. There’s not a lot of sleep that involves just one baby. Then you add another baby to that equation and it’s just like doomsday. It’s going to be me for the next, like, two years. So to be honest, I have no idea. I’m trying not to think about stuff like that. But there’s no way—I’ve never had experience in this department before, so I can’t say at all, no clue.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2015/01/07/person-of-interest-shaw-dead-sarah-shahi-pregnant/

 

[DWF]

^^^Thanks for that, I do think that for the most part people like Shaw, that being said it would be rather odd that after finally making her helpless Martine wouldn't have killed her. Still for whatever reason Greer and the others let her live that does mean we might see her again.

 

[FPAlpha]

I was delayed this week with my watching schedule and only saw it now.. holy crap!

When they want the writers and producers of the show really hit it out of the park. I honestly can't recall a recent TV show with as many excellent episodes as PoI even during sweeps weeks when everybody is upping their game.

When Harold was shot i was truly shocked.. i honestly didn't expect that at all but PoI is also a show that doesn't shy from making hard decisions so i really believed they just got rid of a main cast member and were just brilliant in hiding the secret,´.

I was equally shocked but then positively surprised when it was revealed that it was "just" the Machine running simulations to find the best outcome.

Next one was Caviezel and once again i just fell for it for a different reason. Reese's character arc has played out and he's just the muscle and honestly he didn't have much to do other than shooting up people stoically so it may have been a good way to write him out. As much as i like the character and the actor Shahi/Shaw is much more interesting and fun to watch.

But.. once again it was simulation which then turned into the dread realization that it may be actually Shaw who wouldn't make it out because they actively worked up the Shaw/Root relationship (the time in the simulation when Root dies but has a heart to heart moment with Shaw was just heartbreaking and wonderfully shot from a production viewpoint).

I refuse to believe they have really killed Shaw because of the "no body no death" rule. Shahi is (was?) pregnant and it was a bit of a cop out end to the character because they didn't actually show her death. Characters on this show have bounced back from being shot and i guess the producers are waiting for Shahi's decision if she wants to return and they apparently want her to return or else we would have seen Martine put a bullet into Shaw's head rather than cutting away.

Anyway.. what an awesome episode and a sure Top 10 contender once the show concludes. And this being a 3 parter i am now fired up to see the third part next week.

 

[Christopher]

I'm amused by what the whole "We didn't see her die" thing says about TV conventions vs. reality. In real life, someone who sustained multiple gunshots to the torso like that and didn't get swift medical attention would almost certainly die -- and in some cases, someone who's shot in the head can survive, albeit with brain damage. But in TV, anything other than a shot to the head is presumed to be survivable -- as long as the person being shot is either a hero or a recurring archnemesis.

While I was watching, I assumed that we had been shown Shaw's death, definitively and unambiguously, and that the avoidance of showing us the head shot was a matter of discretion and artistry rather than anything else. Then the promo came on and showed the characters trying to find out whether Shaw was alive or dead. And then I realized that I'd been thinking of it in realistic terms rather than TV terms.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Well, you don't really need a trope to plausibly think she might have survived (even before the preview) since they never showed her being shot in the head. The "Bang" sound as the elevator doors closed could have been Martine shooting the camera so the Machine couldn't see what happened to Shaw, it could have been her firing into the ground to make the Team think she executed Shaw (so they didn't immediately try to rescue her), or it could have just been an overly dramatic door closing sound to end the episode.

Plus, the medical care Shaw needs to survive can be provided by the Samaritan agents so they can keep her alive to interrogate her about the Team.

 

[Christopher]

Well, you don't really need a trope to plausibly think she might have survived (even before the preview) since they never showed her being shot in the head.

Yes, but that's my whole point -- TV logic tells us "They're not dead unless they're shot in the head," but given the multiple bullet wounds she sustained to her torso from high-powered assault weapons, and given the very low likelihood that anyone there would be calling an ambulance for her, then in realistic terms she'd be very, very unlikely to survive even without a headshot. Human beings aren't video game characters that can only be killed by a blow to a specific target. Even the theoretically "safe" wounds to limbs and kneecaps that Team Machine usually inflicts could easily be fatal in real life, even just from shock and blood loss.

And yes, of course I can concoct rationales for how she could be saved, but that's not the point. The point is that what we expect from fiction is different from how injuries work in real life. The only reason we're assuming she might be alive after the number of times she was shot is because she's a main character and we assume she's protected by Plot Armor. If she were a lowly henchwoman of the villains, we'd take it for granted that she was dead after taking multiple shots to the torso. Again, it's thinking in terms of tropes rather than medical realism.

 

[FPAlpha]

I think it has been mentioned already in this thread but even when they kneecap the bad guys or shoot nonvital areas the henchmen are down for good.

Same area with the main cast.. they manage to fight on with just showing some pained expression.

It is fiction.. even such a good one like PoI is victim to it because i believe we are used to seeing it. Not all gun shot wounds are always fatal but i don't think i've ever seen a hero get shot and then spend weeks at a hospital or at home getting up to full health like it needs to be in real life.

Reson for this is pretty obvious.. you can't leave out a cast member for a third of the season to just lie around in bed but at the same time if they were never hit even while the bad guys would hit anything including the kitchen sink we would cry foul and think of the show as "unrealistic".

As i recall Shaw was hit two times.. once in the side and once in the shoulder. Enough to be taken out of action but not instantly fatal and as i said it's apparently Shahi's decision if she will return once she's settled in with the babies and could return to work, at least they have left that door open (and maybe, with the twisted minds of the writers, they can work up a new storyline for Shaw that explains her lengthy absence).

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Yes, but that's my whole point -- TV logic tells us "They're not dead unless they're shot in the head," but given the multiple bullet wounds she sustained to her torso from high-powered assault weapons, and given the very low likelihood that anyone there would be calling an ambulance for her, then in realistic terms she'd be very, very unlikely to survive even without a headshot.

Yes, I read it the first time you said it and specifically addressed that point. Team Samaritan --given the chance to capture someone cleanly without a continuing firefight-- has ample reason to spare Shaw's life and give her immediate medical attention: so they can interrogate her for information about the rest of Team Machine. That's not "plot armor," that's a basic thing criminal and paramilitary organizations would do and have done to their enemies in real life.

They also have a reason to fire the additional offscreen shot we heard: to take out the CCTV camera The Machine was using to view Shaw's status, and to make Team Machine on the other side of the elevator door think that she was killed so that they would not try and mount an immediate rescue.

Also, being shot with "high-powered assault weapons" actually increases her chances for surviving longer if medical attention is forthcoming, versus being shot with typical police-style hollow point expanding handgun ammunition. While Samaritan agents certainly don't have to abide by this like real militaries do, military assault rifles are typically loaded with full metal jacketed rounds since the Hague Convention of 1899. Full metal jacketed rounds expand/deform less upon impact, often over-penetrating and exiting the body, and causing less kinetic damage at impact. This is needed to deal with enemies hiding behind obstacles and thicker armor, and is required to ironically avoid giving your enemy a more grievous wound.

Police on the other hand use expanding hollow point bullets in their handguns because they give better stopping power for close range encounters due to the kinetic impact, and they do not over-penetrate (lodging in the body and causing a larger, more grievous wound), which is necessary when in an urban environment where civilians are more likely to potentially be in the line of fire if a bullet passes through a suspect or an obstacle/wall. In hunting, expanding bullets are often required to give a more "humane" death because they wound is generally more immediately devastating and quicker to result in death for the animal, whereas full metal jacketed rounds might result in a slower, more agonizing death from bleeding out, bile entering the wound, or infection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet

Human beings aren't video game characters that can only be killed by a blow to a specific target. Even the theoretically "safe" wounds to limbs and kneecaps that Team Machine usually inflicts could easily be fatal in real life, even just from shock and blood loss.

I'm not sure what this is addressing since at no time did I suggest that human beings are like video game characters. Yes, gunshot wounds are often a crapshoot and can result in fatality even if you're hit in the arms or legs, especially if left untreated. On the other hand, they're most frequently also extremely survivable for the time necessary to get someone to medical attention, as I provided examples of in my previous post.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=10549300&postcount=111

Here's another article:

More than 430 American service members died from hostile action in Afghanistan last year through Dec. 21, according to official data released by the Pentagon last week at the request of The New York Times.

This was a small fraction of those struck. Nearly 5,500 American troops were wounded in action — more than double the total of 2,415 in 2009, and almost six times the number wounded in 2008.

In all, fewer than 7.9 percent of the Americans wounded in 2010 died, down from more than 11 percent the previous year and 14.3 percent in 2008.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/08/world/asia/08wounded.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The only reason we're assuming she might be alive after the number of times she was shot is because she's a main character and we assume she's protected by Plot Armor. If she were a lowly henchwoman of the villains, we'd take it for granted that she was dead after taking multiple shots to the torso. Again, it's thinking in terms of tropes rather than medical realism.

So, criminal or para/military organizations keeping their enemies alive and interrogating them for information if given the chance is plot armor? That doesn't happen outside of TV and movies? A lot of POWs and victims of criminal interrogations would beg to differ.

Just because it's YOUR only reason doesn't mean it's objectively the only reason.

 

[Christopher]

^Again, I'm not saying it can't be justified in-story, or that I'm incapable of seeing how it could be. I'm just making a general philosophical musing about how expectations differ. My mind often works that way -- a specific instance of something will spark a more general, universal musing and I'll go off on a tangent. By the same token, I wasn't specifically addressing you, just musing on general fictional conceits and audience expectations.

I'm not convinced they'd want to interrogate Shaw, given that this whole thing was a trap meant to engineer the team's deaths. Then again, I suppose that since the other four got away, they might change plans and use the bird in the hand to try to lead them to the others. That seems a bit convenient, though, and yes, it feels like plot armor. But I guess it's contingent on Shahi's career/family choices. I saw an interview where she said she expected to devote at least two years to full-time motherhood, so I wouldn't expect her to return.

Interesting info about the assault weapons. I've been told that a high-caliber sniper round can be so powerful that just being grazed by it would send an instantly lethal hydraulic shock through the bloodstream, but I guess that's a different kind of weapon than these.

 

[FPAlpha]

Interesting info about the assault weapons. I've been told that a high-caliber sniper round can be so powerful that just being grazed by it would send an instantly lethal hydraulic shock through the bloodstream, but I guess that's a different kind of weapon than these.

When a weapon is designed to disable lightly armored vehicles or punch through an engine block you can imagine what it does to a soft body.

Despite its shortcomings there is a scene in the last Rambo movie where he unloads with a .50 calibre machine gun (the same calibre of such anti-material sniper rifles use) onto an enemy and the guy basically disintegrates. While overplayed for shock value this is close to what would happen if really hit by such a weapon.

 

[Claudia]

Just saw this yesterday. And it was a rollercoaster of an episode. From hilarious to heartbreaking, it contained everything that makes PoI such a wonderful show.

I do agree that it's strange that only the female protagonists (apparently) bite the dust. But it's also interesting that the first simulation was aborted after Finch's death - Reese's didn't hold that importance in the second. The simplified version, I thought I was going to die of laughter. Love PoI's humour.

I'm not sure if it's a nitpick or I just missed something. But both, in the 3rd simulation and in reality (such as it is, Christopher's making a good point here which occurred to me as well) Reese took those massive machine guns from the guards in the Degas-corridor... but he never uses them later on? Why?

Overall, stunning episode, easily one of the very best of PoI (and that's saying something given the consistently high quality).

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I do agree that it's strange that only the female protagonists (apparently) bite the dust.

To be fair, while they had planned the end of Carter's arc to coincide with the fall of HR (with the Samaritan arc taking over from there), in Taraji P. Henson's case, she never wanted to be on the show for more then a few seasons anyway (so she could pursue other projects) and wholeheartedly supported the idea of Carter's demise as a means of showing that things are not "safe" for the leads in the world of PoI as it is in many other TV shows.

And in Sarah Shahi's case, she asked for the time off for maternity leave and to take care of her twins for an extended period, so it's not like they had much of a choice in the matter.

So in both cases, it was what the actresses themselves wanted.

How long have you known about Carter's demise?

Taraji P. Henson: I always knew that, at some point, there would be an end to the character. I didn't know if it was going to be two seasons or three seasons, but I knew it was somewhere in that ball park, which works out really great for me because I like doing features. I like to leave people wanting more. I don't like to be settled. I don't think I'm at a place in my life where I can be on a television show for seven years. Movies are still calling me. At my age, that's a lot because once that movie phone stops ringing, that's it.

So this was never going to be the typical seven-year TV contract?

Henson: I thought, "I have two or three years to give to a television show." ... Television can be a bit safe. Everything is tied up neatly at the end of an episode. They just happen to find that one piece of hair in that big-ass carpet that solves the mystery. What I loved about this show is no one is safe. That's life. Sometimes the good guy loses. That's why people are so distraught today. And that's what art is supposed to do: It's supposed to make you feel. You're supposed to be mad and want to throw a glass and yell, "Goddammit, I'm not going to watch this show again." We did our job.

http://www.tvguide.com/news/person-of-interest-taraji-p-henson-jonathan-nolan-1073720.aspx

 

[Christopher]

So in both cases, it was what the actresses themselves wanted.

That ameliorates it, but it's unfortunate that it creates a pattern of women of color getting killed off while the white, mostly male leads carry on. And it was a bad idea to turn Carter into Reese's romantic interest before killing her off, because that made her demise more about the man's feelings and less about her own story arc, the basic "women in refrigerators" cliche. Also it just felt forced and tacked on. They'd never really seemed all that into each other before, but they suddenly started falling in love just before Carter died. And the same thing happened here -- there'd certainly been flirtation between Root and Shaw, but it had never been more than a playful undercurrent, yet here they suddenly escalated it just to generate some last-minute pathos. In both cases, it felt very contrived and manipulative.

So while it may have been the actresses' decision to leave, I still have problems with the decisions the writers made in handling their departures.

 

[DWF]

So in both cases, it was what the actresses themselves wanted.

That ameliorates it, but it's unfortunate that it creates a pattern of women of color getting killed off while the white, mostly male leads carry on. And it was a bad idea to turn Carter into Reese's romantic interest before killing her off, because that made her demise more about the man's feelings and less about her own story arc, the basic "women in refrigerators" cliche. Also it just felt forced and tacked on. They'd never really seemed all that into each other before, but they suddenly started falling in love just before Carter died. And the same thing happened here -- there'd certainly been flirtation between Root and Shaw, but it had never been more than a playful undercurrent, yet here they suddenly escalated it just to generate some last-minute pathos. In both cases, it felt very contrived and manipulative.

So while it may have been the actresses' decision to leave, I still have problems with the decisions the writers made in handling their departures.

None of the white male cast members are pregnant with twins and needed the time off. And Shaw isn't dead so the trope deosn't apply, it really didn't apply to Carter either her death wasn't for no reason. Reese and Finch are the heart of the show and even Root has been guiding them and encouraging them. But really without death the show becomes something of a game, you cna't have the characters risking their lives if there's chance of them even dying from their actions.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

So in both cases, it was what the actresses themselves wanted.

That ameliorates it, but it's unfortunate that it creates a pattern of women of color getting killed off while the white, mostly male leads carry on. And it was a bad idea to turn Carter into Reese's romantic interest before killing her off, because that made her demise more about the man's feelings and less about her own story arc, the basic "women in refrigerators" cliche. Also it just felt forced and tacked on. They'd never really seemed all that into each other before, but they suddenly started falling in love just before Carter died. And the same thing happened here -- there'd certainly been flirtation between Root and Shaw, but it had never been more than a playful undercurrent, yet here they suddenly escalated it just to generate some last-minute pathos. In both cases, it felt very contrived and manipulative.

So while it may have been the actresses' decision to leave, I still have problems with the decisions the writers made in handling their departures.

Two times, unrelated, and only one of those times half by choice and half motivated by the actress' wishes, while the other was completely out of the showrunner's control, is objectively not a "pattern" of anything.

Also, the kiss between Carter and Reese was unscripted and improvised on-set, so it literally was "tacked on." But they liked it and felt it was something the two might do in the tension of facing potential death.

 

[Christopher]

^Of course it wasn't intentional, but it's unfortunate that it reinforces the conventional tropes. The pattern is the larger one throughout the media.

 

[Sto-Vo-Kory]

Outside of books and comics, I don't think the "Women in Refrigerators" accusation holds any water. When we look at films, television, stage productions -- any story that involves human beings inhabiting character roles -- the real life factors can often outweigh any creative designs by those in charge.

Like Locutus informed us, the two female characters from PoI in question both left the show due to the wishes of the real world actresses. Faced with the voluntary departure of these two women, the series' writers tried to get as much story value out of their (possible) deaths as they could.

In Carter's case, she was the driving force behind the fall of HR and she was killed as a consequence. A tragic end, to be sure, but an end to a complete and well-written story arc for Carter. The writers used that tragic death to propel the remaining characters forward, like Reese questioning his mission with the Machine, but her story and death were not simply fuel for Reese and his storyline. She was the protagonist for her own individual narrative.

In Shaw's case, she has nearly shared the lead character status with Harold and John since her arrival in season two. She got the noble sacrifice death(?) and saved the other characters through her intervention. If her death(?) motivates any character change/anguish, it will be for Root and potentially spurring her towards becoming a better hero herself. I think even Gail Simone wouldn't characterize this as "fridging."

"Fridging" can only apply when a character exists solely in ink -- the ink of an artist's brush or the ink of lettered type. With real people playing the female roles, a character death can result from so many different reasons that we, as the audience, can/may never know: Drug problems, mental issues, health issues, ambition for larger roles, proffesional behavior issues, harassment, etc.

For Person of Interest, the two actresses seem to have left on good terms and with amicable feelings from the producers. The writers made the best of the holes in their cast and crafted endings for Carter and Shaw that honored their characters while not diminishing the effects of their deaths on the rest of the team.

That the writers mined such surprising and satisfying stories from the (somewhat unexpected) exits of both Henson and Shahi is a testament to this show's talented producers and should be applauded, not charged with accusations of "fridging" two non-white female characters.

 

[Aragorn]

So in both cases, it was what the actresses themselves wanted.

That ameliorates it, but it's unfortunate that it creates a pattern of women of color getting killed off while the white, mostly male leads carry on. And it was a bad idea to turn Carter into Reese's romantic interest before killing her off, because that made her demise more about the man's feelings and less about her own story arc, the basic "women in refrigerators" cliche. Also it just felt forced and tacked on. They'd never really seemed all that into each other before, but they suddenly started falling in love just before Carter died. And the same thing happened here -- there'd certainly been flirtation between Root and Shaw, but it had never been more than a playful undercurrent, yet here they suddenly escalated it just to generate some last-minute pathos. In both cases, it felt very contrived and manipulative.

So while it may have been the actresses' decision to leave, I still have problems with the decisions the writers made in handling their departures.

I didn't see it as a romantic kiss between Reese and Carter.

 

[auntiehill]

Dang! Another great episode--even Control (name is a bit ironic now) is under Samaritan's thumb, even if she doesn't want to believe it.

And....they're now off until February?? RATS.

 

[Christopher]

When Control went ahead and killed the non-terrorist anyway, I thought that they'd failed to get through to her and she was just a blind, stupid killer after all. But then I realized that she's probably pretending to go along because she knows she's being watched and has to play it close to the vest if she wants to bring down Samaritan. Still, that doesn't make it any less awful that she murdered an innocent man.

I knew I recognized Grice from somewhere -- turns out he was Captain Boomerang in Arrow and The Flash. And the White House chief of staff that Samaritan's child envoy approached was an obnoxious and obstructionist government official in the first season of Fringe. And of course there was the return of the senator played by John Doman, who's now playing Carmine Falcone in Gotham. So this episode was full of familiar faces.