Was Seven a Virgin?

[hux]

Is it Trek specifically or just American TV in general?

yeah maybe American TV

But in this case, i think Trek does specifically deserve some criticism. It was correctly lauded for some of the progressive ideas seen in the OS but it feels like they've been dining out on that stuff for decades now and maybe chose to rest on their laurels as a consequence (and let's not forget that Kirk was "forced" by aliens to kiss Uhura....he didn't do it cos......hey everyone, skin colour shouldn't matter....but yeah, they still definitely deserve "some" credit for the early series)

It was a mixed crew and it had some progressive ideas and it got a good reputation based on that.......but if you look at the stuff that came in later series.....Trek definitely lost it's nerve there and stagnated

Has homosexuality been eradicated in the future (by some fascist government conspiracy). Why are so many people still getting married and having such painfully tedious conventional families. At what point did people decide that we should go back to a 50's style level of domestic life (what happened to the 20th century influence?) Where are the non monogamous people, the people born as one gender but identifying as another, why so much marriage....none of this gets explored

I'm not suggesting a weekly episode of crew members getting sex changes and discussing intersectional feminism......just some kind of recognition that the progressive influences of the 20th and 21st centuries didn't just disappear one day

When i think of Trek, i think of Tom Paris watching his 50's cartoons on his 50's TV while his doting 50's Klingon wife gives him a hug and prepares his pipe and slippers

Culturally, Trek got stuck

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Is it Trek specifically or just American TV in general?

yeah maybe American TV

But in this case, i think Trek does specifically deserve some criticism. It was correctly lauded for some of the progressive ideas seen in the OS but it feels like they've been dining out on that stuff for decades now and maybe chose to rest on their laurels as a consequence (and let's not forget that Kirk was "forced" by aliens to kiss Uhura....he didn't do it cos......hey everyone, skin colour shouldn't matter....but yeah, they still definitely deserve "some" credit for the early series)

It was a mixed crew and it had some progressive ideas and it got a good reputation based on that.......but if you look at the stuff that came in later series.....Trek definitely lost it's nerve there and stagnated

Has homosexuality been eradicated in the future (by some fascist government conspiracy). Why are so many people still getting married and having such painfully tedious conventional families. At what point did people decide that we should go back to a 50's style level of domestic life (what happened to the 20th century influence?) Where are the non monogamous people, the people born as one gender but identifying as another, why so much marriage....none of this gets explored

I'm not suggesting a weekly episode of crew members getting sex changes and discussing intersectional feminism......just some kind of recognition that the progressive influences of the 20th and 21st centuries didn't just disappear one day

When i think of Trek, i think of Tom Paris watching his 50's cartoons on his 50's TV while his doting 50's Klingon wife gives him a hug and prepares his pipe and slippers

Culturally, Trek got stuck

As far as I am concerned, you're preaching to the choir. I've already been a guest in two same sex weddings and three of my coworkers are openly gay and as far as the office goes, never get bothered for that. In that respect ST ( the whole franchise including ENT shockingly) feels like a show of my early childhood, nay the childhood of my father! They really suck at this. They're still making a big deal about having a woman captain while they should have had gay captains about thirty years ago, already!

 

[hux]

As far as I am concerned, you're preaching to the choir. I've already been a guest in two same sex weddings and three of my coworkers are openly gay and as far as the office goes, never get bothered for that. In that respect ST ( the whole franchise including ENT shockingly) feels like a show of my early childhood, nay the childhood of my father! They really suck at this. They're still making a big deal about having a woman captain while they should have had gay captains about thirty years ago, already!

Watching the OS now still feels more groundbreaking and progressive than the later incarnations of the franchise ever were. That's a huge mark against it. The OS was (generally) ahead of the issues but TNG was actually behind. Like that episode with the environmental message (warp travel damages space) it felt so tacked on and forced and was about a decade too late. You can't claim to have forward thinking ideals and values but only address them a decade after everyone else has already done so (climate change was an established fact long before this nonsense)

Or the one with the planet where there's no gender but there's a secret underground movement where people identify as male or female. It never quite has the courage of it's convictions.

I'd have been more impressed if they'd given the acting job to a male actor for Riker to fall for or just forget the gender thing altogether and do an out and out same sex story

TNG just got a little safe, a little conservative (and the next three incarnations followed suit)

 

[Makarov]

I thought it was implied that they are all working their sexual frustrations out on the holodeck making casual sex pretty much moot. Plus with Riker/Kirk's one night stands, Troi's casual romance of the week, not to mention Troi & Riker's on and off again relationship as they each are banging other people, add even more causal sex to the mix and the show would become borderline Grey's Anatomy.

Janeway herself had some pretty casual sex with that one alien inspector guy did she not? Bellana banged Tom before they even considered a relationship if I'm remembering that one episode correctly. Can't remember if that's before or after they were floating in space suits.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Humans on Starships don't do that.

You may piss in the your own shower freely, but as a decent human being, you know that you shouldn't wizz in the community swimming pool even if no one is looking.

It's a community holodeck where children play.

Quarks holosuites on the other hand are steam cleaned and then scrubbed away hard radiation inbetween the the usings of by perverts.

Janeway kissed Kashyack. That's it. Nothing more. He was still a space Nazi throwing bundles of children into a concentration camp. Even if he's "reformed, which she was 80 percent sure that he wasn't, Janeway has standards.

Riker and Dee had a fling. 7 years later they get assigned to the same ship. 6 years later she bangs his transporter clone. 3 years after that they have a bath together. A year later they get married FULLY CLOTHED!

They were mostly almost always off again.

Floating in space suits was day of honour, beginning of season 4. End of season three in blood fever when she had pon far, he wouldn't boff the girl to save her life, because "I want our first time to be special, so if you don't die in the next 20 minutes, why don't you call me some time."

Feelings first. I love you. Sausage time. 3 years later they're talking about marriage in Drive, and then the wedding, and then the baby not long after that, who is born in Endgame. Miral being born the exact moment they cross into the AQ can't be a coincidence. Everything else Admiral Janeway did was obviously timed around that.

 

[hux]

Plus with Riker/Kirk's one night stands, Troi's casual romance of the week, not to mention Troi & Riker's on and off again relationship as they each are banging other people, add even more causal sex to the mix and the show would become borderline Grey's Anatomy.

Janeway herself had some pretty casual sex with that one alien inspector guy did she not? Bellana banged Tom before they even considered a relationship if I'm remembering that one episode correctly. Can't remember if that's before or after they were floating in space suits.

Most of it is either women being seduced (because why would a woman want sex for it's own sake), men doing the seducing (for the same reason) or it's relationships where some degree of bonding has occurred first (so that makes it ok)

There is a noticeable 20th century sense of judgement regarding sex throughout the series. If any of the crew saw Seven/Janeway/B'Ellana coming out of some ensign's quarters (after obviously having sex with them) they would look the other way, seem embarrassed, judge her. Sex in the 24th century as seen through 20th century conservative eyes, still appears to be a highly political action which carries a large amount of shame and judgement with it (even more than today). So the fact that there are no gays anywhere would suggest a massive purge at some time (perhaps during the days of genetically altering people)

Retrospect is the date rape episode

"Retrospect" definitely still has the subtext to it, albeit told in allegory.

But the writers come down on the side of the falsely accused man. Women are often lying or simply mistaken? That would make the allegory very disturbing

And besides, "Vis a Vis" is the rape episode

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Don't blame TV, TV is just a mirror. Blame the reflected.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's also a latrine.

Who do we blame for that?

 

[Makarov]

In my view I think that's a bit harsh, was a character negatively judged for sleeping with someone on the show? Most of the embarrassment I remember is the natural reaction of knowing your coworkers are doing the deed, or the awkwardness caused by different ranks. Nobody tells Troi to stop getting with so many guest characters - in fact Riker says he just wants her to be happy when that betazoid diplomat tried to throw it in his face.

I think they defaulted to seduction because any romance on the show usually ties into some greater plot. Even when it is females seducing males. Ardra attempting to seduce Picard for example. The Borg Queen seducing Data. And in Insurrection seemed to be an older woman seducing a younger Picard.

There was also Alexander's mom who had Alexander but wanted to keep it casual rather than do Klingon marriage with Worf. Granted she met a grissly end but I don't think the show was painting her negatively... she did make it into multiple episodes where most guest characters don't

 

[Guy Gardener]

The actress who played K'Ehleyr, later preformed a live sex with Q completely on camera.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

On a ship eqipped with 2 holodecks I find it very unlikely that anyone would be sexually frustrated.

The wonders of the technology of the 24th century...

 

[Melakon]

So the fact that there are no gays anywhere would suggest a massive purge at some time (perhaps during the days of genetically altering people)

Not necessarily. It's possible some ships are staffed with gay crews, some with lesbians, some with transgenders, some with heteros, some not sexually active, and some with all thrown together. If some Starfleet ships are primarily human, some primarily Vulcan, etc., why not have ships also staffed by sexual identity?

 

[Guy Gardener]

If you don't mind Security reviewing your logs, and the Operations Officer asking glaring questions about power consumption.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So the fact that there are no gays anywhere would suggest a massive purge at some time (perhaps during the days of genetically altering people)

Not necessarily. It's possible some ships are staffed with gay crews, some with lesbians, some with transgenders, some with heteros, some not sexually active, and some with all thrown together. If some Starfleet ships are primarily human, some primarily Vulcan, etc., why not have ships also staffed by sexual identity?

Captains chose their own crew.

There was a completely Vulcan ship in TOS that was destroyed, and another one in DS9 who's crew learnt how to play baseball, but in either case it smacks of racism and exclusion.

Besides, if an all gay crew, or an all Russian crew were gathered, on day one, when they all got a good look at themselves collectively, if they were not already harbouring supremacist leanings, these crews or crew would immediately understand that some #### was using them for a sociological experiment they had not volunteered for which would create transfer demand traffic from 3/4s of the crew, and therefore Starfleet would assume the Captain is a twit they should have no confidence in. Also because the crew was selected along racial lines, the crew would be inferior to any other Starfleet crew that could have been chosen at the same time because this crew was only the best Russians of the best Russians available, and not the absolute best of the absolute best, therefore any mission would be suspect and doomed to failure more so than with an eclectic varied crew from across the board.

 

[Melakon]

When you put it that way, maybe heteros are the only ones dumb enough to sign up for 5+ year missions in a deep space deathtrap.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You think they're Hetero?

Perfect astronauts are Asexual.

No sex drive, no problems.

Did you see Predestinaiton at the movies recently or read the book? All You Zombies by Robert Hienlien? (12 pages is not a book.) The "Space Corps" are the Stewardess like looking sub-astronauts who go into space with the real astronauts, becuase real Astronauts go insane if they don't have sex every three days. Something similar was in effect in the recent Syfy Miniseries Ascension.

You should not watch Ascension.

It will make you angry, and you might break something you can't replace.

 

[Melakon]

I know I read All You Zombies years ago, but it's no longer in any books that survived in my library. I used to have the first three volumes (all there were at the time) of James Gunn's The Road to Science Fiction, it may be in that. Haven't seen Sci-Fi Channel in nearly 20 years. Not familiar with Predestination, my fiction reading ended in the late 80s.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Predestination is a very loyal adaptation of All You Zombies to a point starring Ethan Hawke that came out 2 or 3 weeks ago.

The novella... Novellette? The short Story ends with something like "You have a bright future ahead of you" but the movie continues, and because of the told out of sequence story telling, we've already seen half of the characters future.

In a month or two, you'll probably find a three dollar matinée screening, and remember this conversation.

 

[Melakon]

There's a used music/used video store 3 blocks away where I've been buying my Star Treks lately. It might show up there eventually. I don't see well enough for theaters anymore, haven't been to one in over 10 years.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What you need is a sugar momma.

Some old broad who sees you as young freshmeat eye candy to exploit.

Such a woman with so many means would buy you all the movies.