Sulu -- the forgotten lover and racism of the times?

[T'Girl]

I wonder, also, if the producers of TOS (even way back in the 1960s) knew that Takei is gay ...

From the book Inside Star Trek, Takei didn't go out of his way to keep it a secret (while discreet, he wasn't in the closet). The Hollywood community was far more accepting than the general public and at end of season parties Takei would bring his boyfriend.

 

[The Old Mixer]

But that wasn't shown until 20 years after TOS. And there was still no romance -- just the appearance of a daughter. Once again, the romance was skipped. And for all we know, she could have been a test tube baby.

Clearly this was just an attempt by Paramount 20 years later to cover their obvious racism with Sulu's character. Then still clearly not wanting to have an Asian character have any romance they just throw in a daughter and we're expected to fall for it.


Perhaps the reason we didn't see Sulu in romances is that he was filming Green Berets for a considerable time and some of his juicier parts were given to Chekov.

The series ran for thre years and 78 episodes. There was plenty of time to do an episode with romance with Sulu -- as I wrote before, they did it with Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, and Chekhov.

Why there must be all these sex and relationship issues everywhere?

I turned the tv on to watch a science fiction adventure series, not a soap opera.

That's a good question, but a better question is why must there be romance for all of the other male major characters and not Sulu.

So . . . because African Americans were making strides, Asian Americans somehow were coming out ahead? What?

Missing the clear as day point. You are charging racism, but aim that finger at a group--in a period where you have failed to demonstrate it to be a hard line fact, otherwise that would have been a (necessary) part of your opening post. Not only have you failed to demonstrate how the key players (NBC, Roddenberry or Desilu) practiced racism in regard to a Sulu romance, but the reason for a Sulu shift to Scott was stated as performance related. As a minority, I'm sorry, but in that decade, if anyone would have been the recipient of such treatment, it would not be an Asian American actor before the group in the center of racial firestorm in social/political life of that time. That was the one and only racial focus of the era on the national level--which was not lost on TV networks. That ground was broken on that front was a miracle.

Unlike A long pattern of perception where African Americans were concerned, Asian American actors showing any hint of sexuality was not the taboo / perceived threat on U.S. TV as it was for the other group. While one can argue an Asian American actor could have been overlooked, that is not in the same virulent category as racism, where the very thought of a particular group's sexuality was considered threatening.

Where is your real life racial roadblock--of that decade-which prevented Sulu's romance? Why are you not referring to the smoking NBC and/or Desilu and/or Roddenberry smoking gun?

Even in Takei's lost chance, again, there is a rational motive for shifting the character from Sulu to Scotty--no racism, yet you argue that he (Takei) was the victim of such treatment.

Where is the evidence?

Sulu flirts with one of the space hippies in "The Way To Eden."

..and she was white--which was major on US television, no matter how short the scene. Can anyone recall similar, positive scene on 1960s TV for an African American actor--and was not a "message" / drama scene or episode on race?

Actually, you missed the point by a mile and came up with a bizarre thesis that somehow racism against African Americans is correlated directly to that against Asian Americans. Do you even know anything about racism? Do you know anything about racism against Asian Americans? Beyond the offensiveness of the concept of lumping minorities together, the statement is just historically inaccurate.

Take a look at these three articles to start to see what Asian American male actors have gone through:

http://jezebel.com/5992922/why-arent...s-in-hollywood

http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion...ektingxml.html

http://newamericamedia.org/2014/01/t...races-them.php

If you still want to be in denial or ignorance, that's your choice. But, please, think twice about speaking about issues you clearly know nothing about.

I think Gassy is right, it's racism and we should all stop watching the show, that will certainly hurt their ratings and may even get it cancelled, but they will learn their lesson, when their advertisers stop buying commercials it will hit them right in the wallet!

Maybe we can even write some letters, demand equal treatment for Sulu next season if it isn't cancelled.

I just asked the question. But why is it so threatening to consider the possibility? It's so funny that Star Trek is held up as a paean to diversity, and yet so many fans seem ardently opposed to the reality of bigotry that people actually face. They really do live in the fantasy world of the series.

It wasn't much more than 20 years after World War II. Wasn't the show taking a significant enough step by making one of the heroes Japanese?

Somewhere, though, I've heard or read that it was planned for each of the male regulars to have a love interest at some point just to make clear that they were all "healthy heterosexuals." Mildly interesting in that context if Sulu's turn was taken away and given to Scotty.

But Sulu wasn't originally written to be Japanese, or at least that what Roddenberry at one time claimed. He chose the name Sulu to, in his mind, represent many Asian ethnic groups.

You notice that most of the Comms in Omega Glory were Asian. With Korea, Vietnam and communist China, the typical dumb hick viewer sort of lumped all Asians together. Maybe that had a little bit to do with it, and I mean a very very little.

Nah... no way.

Anyway, Sulu took the Captain's chair at least twice which fully blows the racism card out the airlock in Star Trek. In the great scheme of things, taking command of a Star ship fully outweighs having a girl on your arm.

But racism is multifaceted. Just because he took the captain's chair twice doesn't automatically mean people aren't racist. If they decide that is acceptable but it's not acceptable to show him in a romantic way, that is racist -- doing something negative or putting limitations on him simply because of his race is by definition racism.

This post has been brought to you by Multi Quote. Multi Quote is your friend.

or growing weird muppet plants

 

[urbandefault]

I think Sulu kept busy playing with his sword. Romance would have been a distraction.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

I think Sulu kept busy playing with his sword

 

[Gassy Man]

Or maybe no one consciously thought "let's exclude Sulu", but neither did they think of him as a romantic lead type. People do engage in unconscious stereotyping, after all.

Or, more likely, maybe it was just the luck of the draw. Sulu's one intended romance for "This Side of Paradise" was given to Spocko (a better choice dramatically), George disappeared for a big chunk of season 2, and then Chekov came along and further diluted screentime for the minor players.

No, according to Gassy, some nefarious plot was carried out to deprive Sulu of romance. Too bad there's not a particle of evidence to support the charge.

But that's just it -- I made no such statement of a nefarious plot. These are words that people who either didn't or aren't capable of reading the posts chose to say were stated -- in other words, creating a straw man argument.

I merely asked the question, but that was enough to make people so defensive about the possibility that they came out swinging. Then when I provided more than a few viewpoints from people who actually discussed racism against Asian American male actors, such was dismissed out of hand. It was easier to ignore that such a problem might exist and instead simply deny it and then attack the person who asked the initial question.

The beauty is I just shared this thread with the advanced critical thinking course I teach to illustrate just what they are up against when people either won't or can't read closely, instead choosing to supply their words and statements in place of the ones written. In many ways, this is better than any textbook example could be.

 

[Commishsleer]

The beauty is I just shared this thread with the advanced critical thinking course I teach to illustrate just what they are up against when people either won't or can't read closely, instead choosing to supply their words and statements in place of the ones written. In many ways, this is better than any textbook example could be.

Say Hi from me!

 

[Gassy Man]

As a long-time Asian-American guy, I've seen many examples of how Asian men are neutered or turned into clowns in popular culture and have become sensitive to it (in the scientific sense, meaning I tend to be on the look out for it). Whether Mr. Sulu's absence of romance in TOS is evidence of racist intent, I can't say. Other types of bias (witting or not) have been evident in Trek, so this type of bias might have been present as well. I hope that you don't have to be Asian to at least entertain the possibility.

It's pretty well documented that Asian American males have faced a "bamboo ceiling." While Takei has always been careful not to talk about anything specifically about Star Trek -- he seems savvy enough not to bite the hand that feeds him, so to speak -- he has been outspoken about the issue in general, as in this video:

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/...Film-TCM-Original-Stereotyping-of-Asians.html

His contemporary, James Shigeta, seems more forthright than the diplomatic Takei and probably for good reason. Shigeta is the only Asian American male that Hollywood ever tried to turn into a leading man -- and when that experiment seemed to fail, abandoned doing so again.

 

[Gassy Man]

The beauty is I just shared this thread with the advanced critical thinking course I teach to illustrate just what they are up against when people either won't or can't read closely, instead choosing to supply their words and statements in place of the ones written. In many ways, this is better than any textbook example could be.

Say Hi from me!

No problem -- they had a good laugh on your behalf. In fact, one of them commented, "But I thought Star Trek is a geek thing and geeks are supposed to be smart."

 

[urbandefault]

It's possible that, wait for it, oh no ... Takei wasn't that good an actor and there was no good way to work in a romantic interest for the character.

Good grief, it's been 50 years. Maybe it's time to let it go.

If not, I'll probably just make up some more bad jokes as the thread continues.

 

[Gassy Man]

It's possible that, wait for it, oh no ... Takei wasn't that good an actor and there was no good way to work in a romantic interest for the character.

Good grief, it's been 50 years. Maybe it's time to let it go.

If not, I'll probably just make up some more bad jokes as the thread continues.

Or maybe 50 years later open-minded people are able to talk about something others wanted to sweep under the rug before. There are some bad jokes here, and my students did an excellent job of calling them out . . . can't say their respect for Star Trek or its fans went up, though.

 

[Commishsleer]

It's possible that, wait for it, oh no ... Takei wasn't that good an actor and there was no good way to work in a romantic interest for the character.

Good grief, it's been 50 years. Maybe it's time to let it go.

If not, I'll probably just make up some more bad jokes as the thread continues.

Or maybe 50 years later open-minded people are able to talk about something others wanted to sweep under the rug before. There are some bad jokes here, and my students did an excellent job of calling them out . . . can't say their respect for Star Trek or its fans went up, though.

Did they realise it was made 50 years ago though?
Did you mention Harry Kims romances, or Keiko's marriage or Sato's dalliances? Not all Star Trek fails on Asian romances.

I'm highly critical of TOS's sexism (which no-one else here seems to see ) but realise it was a show doing pretty good for women for the standards of the 60s.

 

[HIjol]

It's possible that, wait for it, oh no ... Takei wasn't that good an actor and there was no good way to work in a romantic interest for the character.

Good grief, it's been 50 years. Maybe it's time to let it go.

If not, I'll probably just make up some more bad jokes as the thread continues.

Or maybe 50 years later open-minded people are able to talk about something others wanted to sweep under the rug before. There are some bad jokes here, and my students did an excellent job of calling them out . . . can't say their respect for Star Trek or its fans went up, though.

Did they realise it was made 50 years ago though?
Did you mention Harry Kims romances, or Keiko's marriage or Sato's dalliances? Not all Star Trek fails on Asian romances.

I'm highly critical of TOS's sexism (which no-one else here seems to see ) but realise it was a show doing pretty good for women for the standards of the 60s.

HGassy Man and Masao

Is it possible that, since it seems like George was comfortable enough in his own skin, and would have perhaps been uncomfortable with a member of the opposite sex, that he, to some degree, resisted being seen on camera as someone he was not? That he was ok with the action and command and dialog he was afforded?

 

[Commishsleer]

I just remembered Sulu wandering shirtless through the ship 'romancing' Uhura. By romancing I mean capturing her while armed and trying to take her to his cabin to have his evil way with her.
And "Mirror Mirror" Sulu also had his eyes on Uhura.

And I think wandering around shirtless with a great body must count for something in the leading man stakes. I mean we really only every saw Kirk (too much), Nimoy and Takei shirtless.
And Sulu was the only one who was holding a lady at the time.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I merely asked the question, but that was enough to make people so defensive about the possibility that they came out swinging. Then when I provided more than a few viewpoints from people who actually discussed racism against Asian American male actors, such was dismissed out of hand. It was easier to ignore that such a problem might exist and instead simply deny it and then attack the person who asked the initial question.

Now you are claiming to be attacked--when in post #49, you engaged in the same behavior you now (hypocritically) pretend you have not committed. A false defensive posture does not help a premise that was faulty at its start.

Again, I suggest--strongly--that you study history and context, as you offered a flawed, false premise that was easily refuted by real world history and considerations of race in the media of the 1960s.

Remember, YOU were the one who opened this thread with:

Every major male character on Star Trek got a love interest except Sulu. Kirk was routinely shown to have them, Spock had several, McCoy had old flames, Chekhov got his, and even Scotty, who would rather spend time with technical manuals, tried to get it on with some women. But not Sulu. Racism of the times?

You cannot toss a charged word such as "racism" and not expect others to demand a valid, well researched explanation for the charge. Please, do not backpedal and claim it was "just a question," since your OP is one clearly believing racism was at work. Again, you were pressed for a well researched explanation and to name the alleged culprits in this case, but you--as of five pages--have continued to dodge and/or fail to name & demonstrate racism from the actions of NBC, Desilu or Roddenberry.

In fact, the point you habitually dodge--Sulu's filtration with a white female ("The Way to Eden") on 1960s TV--not only deflates your false premise, but proves how something that would have offended true racists made the final cut--allowing Takei a TV-rare moment in front of a national audience.

In your case....again, where is the evidence?

The consequences of making false claims and lack of supporting evidence is something your class should study and work to avoid, as this thread illustrates that it is an act not in pursuit of truth, but designed to push a hollow agenda.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It's possible that, wait for it, oh no ... Takei wasn't that good an actor and there was no good way to work in a romantic interest for the character.

No, Takei not receiving a romantic storyline must be--I say MUST be the work of an inherently racist network, showrunner, and production company. There's just no way Takei was passed over due to a possible lack of acting ability.

 

[Gassy Man]

I merely asked the question, but that was enough to make people so defensive about the possibility that they came out swinging. Then when I provided more than a few viewpoints from people who actually discussed racism against Asian American male actors, such was dismissed out of hand. It was easier to ignore that such a problem might exist and instead simply deny it and then attack the person who asked the initial question.

Now you are claiming to be attacked--when in post #49, you engaged in the same behavior you now (hypocritically) pretend you have not committed. A false defensive posture does not help a premise that was faulty at its start.

Again, I suggest--strongly--that you study history and context, as you offered a flawed, false premise that was easily refuted by real world history and considerations of race in the media of the 1960s.

Remember, YOU were the one who opened this thread with:

Every major male character on Star Trek got a love interest except Sulu. Kirk was routinely shown to have them, Spock had several, McCoy had old flames, Chekhov got his, and even Scotty, who would rather spend time with technical manuals, tried to get it on with some women. But not Sulu. Racism of the times?

You cannot toss a charged word such as "racism" and not expect others to demand a valid, well researched explanation for the charge. Please, do not backpedal and claim it was "just a question," since your OP is one clearly believing racism was at work. Again, you were pressed for a well researched explanation and to name the alleged culprits in this case, but you--as of five pages--have continued to dodge and/or fail to name & demonstrate racism from the actions of NBC, Desilu or Roddenberry.

In fact, the point you habitually dodge--Sulu's filtration with a white female ("The Way to Eden") on 1960s TV--not only deflates your false premise, but proves how something that would have offended true racists made the final cut--allowing Takei a TV-rare moment in front of a national audience.

In your case....again, where is the evidence?

The consequences of making false claims and lack of supporting evidence is something your class should study and work to avoid, as this thread illustrates that it is an act not in pursuit of truth, but designed to push a hollow agenda.

Nope, sorry, it doesn't wash I never attacked anyone but simply responded to attacks -- if they became in kind, it was only in response to those attacks, or defensive. In the case of my comment, it wasn't an attack. You clearly don't know anything about racism against Asian Americans. On the other hand, you've repeatedly stated I said things that I did not, have used hyperbole, and turned a question I asked into some sort of imagined declaration. Haha, you even posted the question -- "Racism of the times?"

What's interesting is that the class analyzed your comments. Among the things they noted was your refusal to read any of the links I posted. One student laughed and said, "I can't believe this guy. He doesn't like the questions, so he avoids reading anything that might contradict his opinion. Then he basically wants a signed confession from someone as proof. What world is he living in?" Another said, "If it was that cut and dry, you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place. 'Trek God' should do more reading and less talking." They actually have a homework assignment to analyze yours and other comments here for the logical fallacies and shady argumentative tactics. I'll let you know later this week the highlights of what they came up with.

 

[HIjol]

HI, Gassy_Man,

I would be interested in your thoughts along the line of:

Is it possible that Takei was comfortable in his own skin, and did not want the romance part with the opposite sex, but was happy with the combat and command and action and dialog he did get?

 

[Maurice]

First, I'm not impressed by your bald attempt to shame people by waving your students' reactions in their faces. If you want to refute an argument here, by all means do so, but don't try to pull an "and my minions agree with me."

The inherent trouble with your question is that it can't actually be answered since no one here has access to information which could confirm or deny it. Is it possible neither Sulu or Uhura got a romance because of racism? Is it also possible it just didn't happen because of the luck of the draw? Is either of these things provable unless a smoking gun appears in the form of a memo?

I short, the only answers you're going to get are going to be gut-checked speculation.

I will say "factually" that the production apparently didn't think George was a bad actor. As I recall, one memo regarding the actor contracts actually calls him out as one their "better" actors. I'll try to find it.

 

[Commishsleer]

First, I'm not impressed by your bald attempt to shame people by waving your students' reactions in their faces. If you want to refute an argument here, by all means do so, but don't try to pull an "and my minions agree with me."

The inherent trouble with your question is that it can't actually be answered since no one here has access to information which could confirm or deny it. Is it possible neither Sulu or Uhura got a romance because of racism? Is it also possible it just didn't happen because of the luck of the draw? Is either of these things provable unless a smoking gun appears in the form of a memo?

I short, the only answers you're going to get are going to be gut-checked speculation.

I will say "factually" that the production apparently didn't think George was a bad actor. As I recall, one memo regarding the actor contracts actually calls him out as one their "better" actors. I'll try to find it.

I agree it is possible the lack of romance is maybe a racist thing but its hard to prove since Sulu did indeed take command at certain points in the series and commanded 'white' people. If there were an 'agenda' against Asian people then you'd think it might extend to that too.

People on this very board have told me the studio wanted more ethnicity on the show (except for Chinese people) that it wasn't just GR. I can't see them saying have lots people of different races but don't let them have romances (though it is possible).

I thought Takei was great as Sulu and really dodged a bullet by not having those awful Scotty romances at least.

But you know every TOS fangirl remembers shirtless swashbuckler Sulu. What girl doesn't like a bad boy?

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[CorporalCaptain]

Mirror Sulu pursued Uhura, who he thought was Mirror Uhura. I'm not seeing any racism there.