TUC: Overrated?

[enterprisecvn65]

Posted this on the Literature board but applies here :
Was looking at the VI Cinefantastique from 91 and VI was considered better than II in the Altman sidebar reviews: (out of **** stars)
TMP **½
TWOK ***½ ("Until VI this was widely considered the best of the movie lot..")
TSFS **½
TVH ***
TFF **½
TUC ***¾ ("this impressive capper on a 25year voyage is the best of the film series....boasting the best SFX of the series and one of the greatest space battles ever committed to celluloid")

I think lot of fans considered VI so good at the time it bested II. I know I did. II was 10 years old and VI felt new, fresh, almost like a WOK for the 90s. (of course in hindsight I don't think is in the same league. And In the years since II has become like this almost mythical, iconic movie like Empire Strikes Back. I guess it was back then too but now even more so)

Uh I think you are WAY off base here. Empire Strikes Back was vastly underappreciated at first and only gained stature when its younger fans grew up and appreciated its depth more and we saw how it fit into the whole story.

TWOK basically set the bar from the start and everything since has tired to match it and failed it IMHO. I DO NOT remember anyone going "Wow TUC really beat the TWOK" and only in time has that opinion reversed to TWOK.

Also the effects in TUC were inferior to I-III. The model shots were far more detailed in the first 3 films and the fact that TUC came over a decade since TMP should have given it a huge edge is SFX. Instead I think most EFX shots, while passable, aren't anywhere near as good as the first 3 films.

 

[CorporalClegg]

And In the years since II has become like this almost mythical, iconic movie like Empire Strikes Back.

 

[Captrek]

Posted this on the Literature board but applies here :
Was looking at the VI Cinefantastique from 91 and VI was considered better than II in the Altman sidebar reviews: (out of **** stars)
TMP **½
TWOK ***½ ("Until VI this was widely considered the best of the movie lot..")
TSFS **½
TVH ***
TFF **½
TUC ***¾ ("this impressive capper on a 25year voyage is the best of the film series....boasting the best SFX of the series and one of the greatest space battles ever committed to celluloid")

I think lot of fans considered VI so good at the time it bested II. I know I did. II was 10 years old and VI felt new, fresh, almost like a WOK for the 90s. (of course in hindsight I don't think is in the same league. And In the years since II has become like this almost mythical, iconic movie like Empire Strikes Back. I guess it was back then too but now even more so)

Uh I think you are WAY off base here. Empire Strikes Back was vastly underappreciated at first and only gained stature when its younger fans grew up and appreciated its depth more and we saw how it fit into the whole story.

As I recall, a lot of people were put off of TESB by what was, at the time, a highly unconventional story structure.

People expected the same basic story structure as the first Star Wars: the villains threaten innocents, the heroes defeat them and save everybody, and celebrate.

TESB didn't have a conventional ending. The hero did not defeat the villain, and it ended on a sort of "To be continued..." note. Since it wasn't a conventional ending, it didn't feel like an ending at all. A lot of fans and critics said it felt like Lucas just ran out of film and stopped.

Today, most action films still follow the original formula, but we're a bit more accepting of deviations from it, especially if a sequel is expected.

 

[eyeresist]

If it's supposed to be an allegory to the end of the Cold War, then what's it trying to tell us about it? That the end of the Cold War was a dire and frightful thing?

This made me laugh! I guess the truth is that, while the Chernobyl disaster and the fall of the Berlin Wall were the starting inspiration for the story, TUC is in fact not a direct allegory but an original story.

 

[Smellmet]

Also the effects in TUC were inferior to I-III. The model shots were far more detailed in the first 3 films and the fact that TUC came over a decade since TMP should have given it a huge edge is SFX. Instead I think most EFX shots, while passable, aren't anywhere near as good as the first 3 films.

You have got to be joking, right?

 

[CoveTom]

Also the effects in TUC were inferior to I-III. The model shots were far more detailed in the first 3 films and the fact that TUC came over a decade since TMP should have given it a huge edge is SFX. Instead I think most EFX shots, while passable, aren't anywhere near as good as the first 3 films.

You have got to be joking, right?

I wholeheartedly agree with him. While the effects work in TFF was certainly sub-par, and we don't really see enough outer space model work in TVH to make a comparison, I definitely think the effects in TUC fall far short of the standard set by the first three films. The Enteprise, in particular, looked absolutely horrible throughout TUC.

 

[Smellmet]

But it's not just about the Enterprise is it? I'll concede the big E looked the best in TMP but no way the others - the Enterprise looks awful in TSFS bar the approach to space dock shot and the odd other and a good chunk of TWOK is recycled TMP footage anyway. What about the zero-g assassination?

 

[BillJ]

I tend to agree that the first three films had better special effects than The Undiscovered Country.

 

[Cyke101]

Though after V, *everything* had better special effects.

---

On a side note, it tickles me to this day that TUC and the 1990s Fox X-Men cartoon both used the same sound effects, particularly for the Sentinels.

 

[Smellmet]

I don't get it, bar V I think all the movies effects reflect their respective ages, bar TMP which had a lot more money thrown at it. I think the visuals in TUC are on the nose for a film made in 1991. I've never thought they were a step down from previous entries, quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Praxius]

Jumping in late here, but I liked Undiscovered Country.... in fact, I felt it was the best TOS movie overall compared to the others.

While I like The Wrath of Khan, I felt it was over rated. I didn't care for the one dimensional Khan, nor did I care for how he thought he stranded Kirk on the planet and Kirk acted like he truly was for the sake of the viewer (via facial expressions and screaming KHAN!!) yet already knew beforehand that Spock was right there to scoop him up.

Anyways, as for Undiscovered Country, I liked it overall and enjoyed the story. I can't say the pink Klingon blood made much sense, nor can I understand how Spock put that tracking device on Kirk that nobody else even noticed the whole time. Yes, I saw Spock pop it on him before Kirk left the ship, but how did none of the Klingons see this thing stuck on his back? They didn't bother to search him or scan him as a standard security measure?

Rolling back a bit, I liked the battles that were shown, the damage done to the ships, it was all pretty effective. The Zero G assassination was done well, the whole whodunit thing was entertaining and I was interested in the story.

The alien makeup and designs were done well.... it was the first Star Trek movie (TOS) that I saw which didn't bore me when I was younger.

Musical scores in the movies (or any movie for that matter) is usually not an issue for me and I couldn't care less whether the music in a movie was all dramatic and orchestrated or a lone guy playing a ukulele.

If I was going to compare TOS movies, then the top three are as follows:

The Undiscovered Country
The Final Frontier
The Wrath of Khan
The Voyage Home
The Search for Spock
The Motion Picture

I'm aware that my choices are generally not in sync with the masses, but I can't say that I care all that much. To each their own.

 

[Melakon]

I can't say the pink Klingon blood made much sense. . .

I think that was done to avoid a PG-13 rating, which could have reduced box office results.

 

[Captrek]

...nor can I understand how Spock put that tracking device on Kirk that nobody else even noticed the whole time. Yes, I saw Spock pop it on him before Kirk left the ship, but how did none of the Klingons see this thing stuck on his back? They didn't bother to search him or scan him as a standard security measure?

It's even worse than that. Marta asked Kirk outright if he had a way to get off the surface once they were outside the beaming shield, and he confirmed that he did. Still, they thought that "get them outside the beaming shield and wait" was a good way to prevent them escaping. It makes no sense at all.

 

[Khan 2.0]

think that was done to avoid a PG-13 rating, which could have reduced box office results.

I think I read somewhere (Cinefan? Cinefex?)it was pink to avoid an R rating. hard to believe most stuff back then was either R or PG. I don't think the PG13rating was used that often (certainly not like now where most stuff is PG13, even previously R rated series, and previously PG stuff like Trek, Bond etc got raised to PG13)

 

[Praxius]

That's just silly if indeed true. Have people getting their arms blasted off by phasers, have people shot through and have blood splattering all over the screen and kicked around by spinning boots from corpses, have Bones shoving things into the open chest of a dying Klingon bleeding out on a table.... Oh, but have that blood cotton candy pink instead of red or we'll give you an R rating.... Cripes wouldn't want little kids to start thinking blood comes out of people when you shoot them.... Just pink bubble gum.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Yes that's what I thought back then. It was referred to as Pepto Bismol blood. TNG BRs should have CGed pink blood on injured Klingons!

 

[dub]

Too bad they couldn't go with black blood. That would seem to fit better with the species.

 

[Cyke101]

I don't get it, bar V I think all the movies effects reflect their respective ages, bar TMP which had a lot more money thrown at it. I think the visuals in TUC are on the nose for a film made in 1991. I've never thought they were a step down from previous entries, quite the opposite in fact.

To TUC's credit, it popularized the Praxis Effect, which has been used in TV and movies ever since then. And even though there were a couple movies that used the wave before TUC, the movie has the honor of actually naming it. Yay legacy!

 

[Khan 2.0]

Always thought the VI FX were the best in the original movie series? Praxis explosion (that was used for quite a few movies after), the zeroG assassination, the T2 style blood/shapeshifter morphs, the spaceship models looked better than ever, the end battle.

IIIs are pretty amazing too with all the new stuff. I'd say FX best to worse VI, III, I, II, IV....... V. With TNG probably FC, GEN, NEM, INS

 

[fireproof78]

That's just silly if indeed true. Have people getting their arms blasted off by phasers, have people shot through and have blood splattering all over the screen and kicked around by spinning boots from corpses, have Bones shoving things into the open chest of a dying Klingon bleeding out on a table.... Oh, but have that blood cotton candy pink instead of red or we'll give you an R rating.... Cripes wouldn't want little kids to start thinking blood comes out of people when you shoot them.... Just pink bubble gum.

Silly or not, all the data that I could find, including IMDB, suggests that is exactly why it was pink, was to keep a PG rating. Silly to us, but if you want to keep the audience wider, then you make concessions.