Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link

[Anwar]

One thing I noticed in VOY, is that they never really sold me on the characters realising they might never seem home again.

That's kind of the problem. Their situation wasn't anything new, and in some of their cases they didn't really WANT to go home all that badly.

We should've seen more episodes where the crew leave and VOY gets new crew or becomes more automated so they don't need a lot of people to run the ship.

Anwar, your arguments about what made BSG good were the things from the original show is a bit odd.

I'm just pointing out that Moore had it a tad easier and "didn't get it right from day one".

And even then, it still all fell apart after 2 seasons.

 

[dub]

And if NuBSG seemed like it worked right off the bat...it's because most of the show was already written back in the 1970s and was merely co-opted by Moore with some minor rewrites.

I acknowledge and am thankful for the original. But I think the bulk of the reason nuBSG hit the ground running is because they had an awesome cast of actors who had great chemistry and writing that was nothing short of riveting. "Some minor rewrites?" Yeah, that's just not accurate.

 

[Anwar]

And if NuBSG seemed like it worked right off the bat...it's because most of the show was already written back in the 1970s and was merely co-opted by Moore with some minor rewrites.

I acknowledge and am thankful for the original. But I think the bulk of the reason nuBSG hit the ground running is because they had an awesome cast of actors who had great chemistry and writing that was nothing short of riveting. "Some minor rewrites?" Yeah, that's just not accurate.

The writing fell short after only two seasons, and the actors having good chemistry....well sometimes that's just dumb luck.

 

[Hypaspist]

The original BSG is a godawful mess that makes no sense whatsoever. It is not even consistent with the plot in its own pilot. They had a good concept...well actually, the concept was Mormonism in space, but a sub-concept of it all was that they were on the run from genocidal robots. That wasn't enough though - they wanted to have a Mos Eisley scene in there, so they shoehorned it in...complete with a sinister insectoid trap going on in the basement for no real reason. They also wanted to have an R2-D2 and a kid character, so they had them in a Mars rover on a planet that they weren't on for any good reason. The idea of them navigating through unknown space takes place in about five minutes and makes no sense whatsoever.
Seriously all of this was so incoherent that I actually had to check and make sure I was still watching the series premier.

So really the modern BSG owes about as much to the original as the game FTL does. It uses the same names for things but has its own story, not a cheap excuse to have Star Wars style scenes on television. The story is fundamentally different except when it comes down to a ship named Galactica leading the remnants of humanity away from robots that want to kill them. There is no mention of them being created by giant lizards, no Egyptian/Mormon imagery, no Pew Pew lazers, no nostalgia callbacks to the old series, and no one-dimensional characters. Even if it has a few lame episodes and ended poorly, it still makes for good military sci fi - probably the best of that sub-genre ever put on screen. (not that there's a lot of competition, but there isn't much to compare with the New Caprica evacuation, the boarding of Galactica, or the space battles in the show)

 

[Anwar]

The story is fundamentally different except when it comes down to a ship named Galactica leading the remnants of humanity away from robots that want to kill them.

Well...that WAS the plot of old BSG.

Even if it has a few lame episodes and ended poorly, it still makes for good military sci fi - probably the best of that sub-genre ever put on screen. (not that there's a lot of competition, but there isn't much to compare with the New Caprica evacuation, the boarding of Galactica, or the space battles in the show)

The show relied on "Magic" tech as much as Trek ever did.

Did they ever explain how they had such an advanced teleportation device for their engines, when the rest of their tech was more or less 20th Century stuff? Did they ever explain why they never weaponized such an incredible ability?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Honestly BSG's 3rd season was probably some of the best science fiction I've ever seen on any kind of screen. The problem was they had no idea how to end it, and speaking of Deus Ex, Scorpion ended the same way (to my disappointment).

Probably due to the negative reaction Scorpion Part One got. They decided to just end the storyline then and there once they realized no one liked it.

Yeah I do have to say Battlestar Gallactica was an amazing show in pretty much every aspect.... And I only got to watch it after it was all wrapped up because I had no interest before that.

I never liked it that much. I found the characters too unlikeable and the general feel too repellant.

Plus, they "wussed out" just as much as everyone says VOY did. They used the reset button just as much.

To me Battlestar Galactica was an amazing show through the divided fleet arc, the Admiral Cain arc and the New Caprica arc, but after that they couldn't quite figure out what they wanted to do. It was still a good show but like many shows of that time period did not deliver on promise. The ending relied too much on 'God did it'.

I loved the characters though I thought they moved too many of them in an obnoxious direction later in the show's run. Characters who were likable like Cally in the first season were unbearable after New Caprica.

I don't think you necessarily have to have an end game in mind. I feel like I'm in the minority sometimes who don't think the weak endings of Lost and Battlestar Galactica at all ruin the amazing prior seasons. Voyager could have had more consistent resource problems but it was always set up as an adventure-oriented show.

In my humble opinion, many of the adventure/scifi concept episodes were really good. But when they leaned on a one dimensional character quirk which they did in over half their episodes they fell flat on their faces.

 

[Anwar]

Having resource problems for 7 years, as well as constant conflict for 7 years, really really would've gotten real boring, real fast. And 7 years of conflict would've been a sign of a lunatic crew, not realistic tensions.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly BSG's 3rd season was probably some of the best science fiction I've ever seen on any kind of screen. The problem was they had no idea how to end it, and speaking of Deus Ex, Scorpion ended the same way (to my disappointment).

Probably due to the negative reaction Scorpion Part One got. They decided to just end the storyline then and there once they realized no one liked it.

Yeah I do have to say Battlestar Gallactica was an amazing show in pretty much every aspect.... And I only got to watch it after it was all wrapped up because I had no interest before that.

I never liked it that much. I found the characters too unlikeable and the general feel too repellant.

Plus, they "wussed out" just as much as everyone says VOY did. They used the reset button just as much.

To me Battlestar Galactica was an amazing show through the divided fleet arc, the Admiral Cain arc and the New Caprica arc, but after that they couldn't quite figure out what they wanted to do. It was still a good show but like many shows of that time period did not deliver on promise. The ending relied too much on 'God did it'.

I loved the characters though I thought they moved too many of them in an obnoxious direction later in the show's run. Characters who were likable like Cally in the first season were unbearable after New Caprica.

I don't think you necessarily have to have an end game in mind. I feel like I'm in the minority sometimes who don't think the weak endings of Lost and Battlestar Galactica at all ruin the amazing prior seasons. Voyager could have had more consistent resource problems but it was always set up as an adventure-oriented show.

In my humble opinion, many of the adventure/scifi concept episodes were really good. But when they leaned on a one dimensional character quirk which they did in over half their episodes they fell flat on their faces.

I am in agreement with you on many things. I don't think Lost or BSG's finale somehow took away from the rest of the show, any more than Abrams Trek takes away from TOS. I was not a huge fan of nuBSG, beyond the look of the technology and some of the concepts. However, it is a credit to Moore and his team, as well as the actors, that I could not stand most of the characters, and found them morally annoying and, in some cases, repugnant. Yes, I'm giving them credit, because that means that they are portraying characters that are convincing. But, I just walk away from nuBSG too depressed to continue.

For me, VOY had potential that it did not play out, both in characters and concept. No, it did not have to be a retread of BSG, with a fleet of humans trying to escape a deadly foe. Actually, the Borg started to play more and more of that role as the who moved on. Seven became a bit of a "Borg Army Knife" that could fix many problems.

However, as I will continue to maintain, the "Lost Ship" motif can be used to great avail, and then evolve from the character development that the first two seasons creates. For me, VOY never really did that, aside from a few brief episodes.

I also maintain that the VOY crew was a lunatic crew

 

[Hypaspist]

I don't think a lot of these criticisms are valid. You can't say that a lack of technical detail makes everything completely fake. In military sci fi, it is more important that they tell the story than that they explain how everything works. It's when things become inconsistent that it becomes a problem. It's one of the reasons I prefer the tech of the Abrams movies - they mostly ignore replicators. The ability to transform matter is pretty much the ultimate power. You have to ignore it if you hope to tell any kind of compelling story, and Trek mostly does except for when the replicator goes crazy. I think it was normally an RD Moore episode where the replicated food wasn't nearly as good as the real thing because he wanted to emphasize it.

A story can be based off of anything if the writing and execution is good enough. The Lost Fleet is an entire series that is basically about that same concept. Nobody owes anything to old BSG because the basic story is as old as story telling probably even back to the great migrations of pre-history. All of the key details of old BSG were thrown away because the show sucked completely, and the new one is almost indistinguishable from it.
That lack of branching out from Trek itself is Voyager's biggest weakness. They weren't ballsy enough to really make it their own show, so they had a harder time making compelling new stories. Either that or the studio was too controlling...and I'm honestly more inclined to believe that. If there is one thing I hate it's how creativity is smashed by the studio. It's actually a good thing that Enterprise was so irredeemably bad that they were willing to bring in new blood and not be so limited. Also if they hadn't already been planning Voyager the way they did, we probably never would have seen DS9 which pretty much gave the finger to them every chance it got.

I do think that they could have gotten the sci fi part a bit better. Ultimate power in some ways and ridiculously primitive in others - compared to TOS anyway - wouldn't be so bad if there was some level of consistency throughout. It's one of the reasons that the TNG and onward tech manuals aren't what I go to - they were written by the designers, unlike the TOS manual which laid down the rules much more clearly.

 

[Anwar]

It's one of the reasons I prefer the tech of the Abrams movies - they mostly ignore replicators. The ability to transform matter is pretty much the ultimate power. You have to ignore it if you hope to tell any kind of compelling story, and Trek mostly does except for when the replicator goes crazy.

The replicator isn't the "ultimate power" more than the Transporter, you know.

Ironically, Voyager was the only series to show them using the Transporter as a weapon.

That lack of branching out from Trek itself is Voyager's biggest weakness. They weren't ballsy enough to really make it their own show, so they had a harder time making compelling new stories.

They had good ideas, like "The Void" and "Scorpion" but the audience hated them all so there was nothing left to work with.

Also if they hadn't already been planning Voyager the way they did, we probably never would have seen DS9 which pretty much gave the finger to them every chance it got.

DS9 was given the time and resources it needed. VOY wasn't.

For crying out loud, VOY's audience got PO'ed whenever they tried to trade or get external aid from anyone. If they can't even do THAT, what's the point?!

Ultimate power in some ways and ridiculously primitive in others - compared to TOS anyway - wouldn't be so bad if there was some level of consistency throughout.

Let's be fair here, TOS was just as, if not MORE inconsistent than any other Trek.

unlike the TOS manual which laid down the rules much more clearly.

TOS' rules were basically "Look, the tech just does whatever the writer says it does and we're never going to explain how it works so just deal with it."

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think a lot of these criticisms are valid. You can't say that a lack of technical detail makes everything completely fake. In military sci fi, it is more important that they tell the story than that they explain how everything works. It's when things become inconsistent that it becomes a problem. It's one of the reasons I prefer the tech of the Abrams movies - they mostly ignore replicators. The ability to transform matter is pretty much the ultimate power. You have to ignore it if you hope to tell any kind of compelling story, and Trek mostly does except for when the replicator goes crazy. I think it was normally an RD Moore episode where the replicated food wasn't nearly as good as the real thing because he wanted to emphasize it.

A story can be based off of anything if the writing and execution is good enough. The Lost Fleet is an entire series that is basically about that same concept. Nobody owes anything to old BSG because the basic story is as old as story telling probably even back to the great migrations of pre-history. All of the key details of old BSG were thrown away because the show sucked completely, and the new one is almost indistinguishable from it.
That lack of branching out from Trek itself is Voyager's biggest weakness. They weren't ballsy enough to really make it their own show, so they had a harder time making compelling new stories. Either that or the studio was too controlling...and I'm honestly more inclined to believe that. If there is one thing I hate it's how creativity is smashed by the studio. It's actually a good thing that Enterprise was so irredeemably bad that they were willing to bring in new blood and not be so limited. Also if they hadn't already been planning Voyager the way they did, we probably never would have seen DS9 which pretty much gave the finger to them every chance it got.

I do think that they could have gotten the sci fi part a bit better. Ultimate power in some ways and ridiculously primitive in others - compared to TOS anyway - wouldn't be so bad if there was some level of consistency throughout. It's one of the reasons that the TNG and onward tech manuals aren't what I go to - they were written by the designers, unlike the TOS manual which laid down the rules much more clearly.

I agree with the premise point, that it needed to be explored more, and done in a way that expands upon the Star Trek idea in a new way. But, what I saw was VOY living TNG's shadow and not willing to move past that fact.

However, I think VOY had its moments where it could be shown to stand up on it's own, especially with characters like the Doctor. Episodes like "Scorpion" and "Dark Frontier" explored some new ideas, and were generally memorable.

My problem with VOY is really similar to my problem with ENT. Undeveloped characters and underused potential. It could have done a lot more: "Year of Hell" was demonstration of that fact. But, it never really did. To me, I don't hate VOY but am just disappointed with the unrealized possibilities.

 

[Hypaspist]

I think that they could have had the characters from TNG in the same situations and it would have been more memorable. That's not always true though. I actually like Chakotay's adventures that he gets into against his will. He has more of a soldier personality, so he is relatable in that way. Janeway is good too because she is not as oldschool and as by the book as Picard - more willing to fly by the seat of her pants, I guess. It's the junior officers that are less interesting.

There are a few times that they really get a lot out of being far from home. Coming across bizarre trading colonies and incomprehensible aliens are actually some of my favorite episodes so far. I think Voyager has a lot of successes but it could have had more.

Enterprise had no successes at all and ruined a lot of things permanently. Voyager may have come up with some stupid ideas that made technology act retarded, but it didn't piss all over everything with flaming acid like Enterprise did.

 

[dub]

So Hypaspist, how do you really feel about ENT? It's so unclear.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Having resource problems for 7 years, as well as constant conflict for 7 years, really really would've gotten real boring, real fast. And 7 years of conflict would've been a sign of a lunatic crew, not realistic tensions.

Sure, if you tried to make every single episode directly about the resource problems and nothing else. What you're describing is pretty much Stargate: Universe. But I don't think that's what people are asking for when they say Voyager should have stayed true to its premise.

I like the 'Adventure of the week' format of Voyager, but they could have done that without handwaving the premise when it wasn't convenient.

I think the perfect approach to writing Voyager would have been: "We have this cool idea for a premise. How would the characters react to it? How would this affect the ongoing arcs and stories in the long term? How would this deplete their resources in the next episode? How would the depletion of resources in the previous episodes affect this one? How would this relate to the mounting stress and despair of the crew? Oh, we're killing two ensigns? Ok, mark down the crew compliment has been reduced from 144 to 142 in case the plot demands somebody saying the number." So you have the adventure of the week and the premise of the show reacts to it naturally, without the handwaving everything that happened in every other episode.

Instead we got "We need a Neelix episode. Let's write something around him annoying Tuvok or something, just take some scifi trope and plug it in. Like maybe they get stuck on a shuttle together. Or a time loop, oh we did time travel too recently? Nevermind then, let's say, they're trapped in a cave that's running out of air or something. And next week let's find way to put Seven in a nice dress, let's find some excuse to trap her in the holodeck. Whatever."

 

[Hypaspist]

So Hypaspist, how do you really feel about ENT? It's so unclear.

I'm not that fond of it.


I'm not a hater of Neelix though. Every show has characters that are annoying on purpose and I don't know why it becomes such a problem. Lxaxana Troy is played for laughs and is actually funny.

Annoying characters to me are ones that act evil in the most retarded ways ever. TNG Conspiracy had some comical bad guys at the end, but it's almost to the point where it's funny, so you enjoy it.
I'll tell you a villain that pissed me off and ruined an episode: The evil Data hating scientist from "Measure of a Man."

 

[mos6507]

TOS' rules were basically "Look, the tech just does whatever the writer says it does and we're never going to explain how it works so just deal with it."

Understandably, explaining tech helps suspend disbelief and world-build, so I know why some people expect it, but it also slows the plot to a halt. And considering that Voyager takes the cake on having the most running-time per-episode devoted to technobabble of any Trek show, I'd say TOS' approach was the right one.

 

[Anwar]

Sure, if you tried to make every single episode directly about the resource problems and nothing else.

That's what the complainers wanted though. Every single episode to have something to do with their resource shortages.

In NuBSG, they get a supply load from Ragnar Anchorage early on and this is apparently enough to last them the whole series. Never once is it ever stated they're using Nukes too fast.

If VOY had done the same thing and had them raid some aliens supply depot for weapons, the audience would've just complained that they should be raiding supply depots every other episode every season.

You just can't win.

But I don't think that's what people are asking for when they say Voyager should have stayed true to its premise.

When they say they wanted the show to stay true to its premise, they mean they wanted the entire crew, with no exceptions, to completely fall to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another. At least in their spare time while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.

I think the perfect approach to writing Voyager would have been: "We have this cool idea for a premise. How would the characters react to it? How would this affect the ongoing arcs and stories in the long term? How would this deplete their resources in the next episode? How would the depletion of resources in the previous episodes affect this one? How would this relate to the mounting stress and despair of the crew? Oh, we're killing two ensigns? Ok, mark down the crew compliment has been reduced from 144 to 142 in case the plot demands somebody saying the number." So you have the adventure of the week and the premise of the show reacts to it naturally, without the handwaving everything that happened in every other episode.

That might work if they had only 10 or 13 episodes every season (easier to keep track of things), a smaller main cast (not as many characters to worry about) and a much larger crew number (hundreds) so they have lots of more expendable cannon fodder without really affecting the ship's running.

But even then, it's awfully constraining and convoluted.

Also VOY suffered from writers and even Producers who didn't want to deal with stuff other writers did prior. Jeri Taylor in particular whined about how she had to incorporate long running plot arcs into her stories and she felt these arc plots ruined what she was doing (like in "Lifesigns").

Instead we got "We need a Neelix episode. Let's write something around him annoying Tuvok or something, just take some scifi trope and plug it in. Like maybe they get stuck on a shuttle together. Or a time loop, oh we did time travel too recently? Nevermind then, let's say, they're trapped in a cave that's running out of air or something. And next week let's find way to put Seven in a nice dress, let's find some excuse to trap her in the holodeck. Whatever."

Well to be fair none of that affects their resources or plot arcs. Sometime self-contained stories that had no long-term impact aren't bad things.

Understandably, explaining tech helps suspend disbelief and world-build, so I know why some people expect it, but it also slows the plot to a halt. And considering that Voyager takes the cake on having the most running-time per-episode devoted to technobabble of any Trek show, I'd say TOS' approach was the right one

And yet whenever we see stories where they do just that and don't explain stuff, it just gets derided as poor writing (Living Witness).

You just can't win.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In NuBSG, they get a supply load from Ragnar Anchorage early on and this is apparently enough to last them the whole series. Never once is it ever stated they're using Nukes too fast.

That's just factually incorrect. First of all they just don't use very many nukes over the course of the series. IIRC it was stated they had five of them when Baltar asked for one for his cylon detector, and most of the time they used missiles and bombardments from vipers.

And they ran short on things constantly. They almost ran out of fuel near the end of season one. They ran out of food in season three.

When they say they wanted the show to stay true to its premise, they mean they wanted the entire crew, with no exceptions, to completely fall to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another.

Yeah, that straw man is an ASS!

That might work if they had only 10 or 13 episodes every season (easier to keep track of things), a smaller main cast (not as many characters to worry about) and a much larger crew number (hundreds) so they have lots of more expendable cannon fodder without really affecting the ship's running.

How many characters actually died in the course of the series? Quick google search, 32. Nothing that would have kept them from writing any story they wanted. But when they reference the count directly in episodes they don't even get it right. The count creeping down to 120-130 would have highlighted the danger of the situation, and it would have signaled the audience the writers gave a crap.

Well to be fair none of that affects their resources or plot arcs. Sometime self-contained stories that had no long-term impact aren't bad things.

Yeah, but the ones that should have had impact didn't have any at all. In Fury part of the ship gets ripped off five years back in time, and we are asked to accept that for the whole time Janeway, Tuvok and Kes all knew Kes would leave the ship and this had no impact on their actions whatsoever.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's worse than that.

We are dealing with a new timeline.

Of the crew that passed the finishline in Endgame, we never saw any of their adventures between the Phage and Fury, since the crew we were following were bushwacked and left behind when Kes murdered B'Elanna.

Howsoever minutely, your DVD's are inauthentic and inaccurate, and you should think about returning them to the store because they are defectively reporting the wrong history.

 

[Anwar]

That's just factually incorrect. First of all they just don't use very many nukes over the course of the series. IIRC it was stated they had five of them when Baltar asked for one for his cylon detector, and most of the time they used missiles and bombardments from vipers.

And they ran short on things constantly. They almost ran out of fuel near the end of season one. They ran out of food in season three.

They never run low on weapons, never is it mentioned they have finite weapons.

As for running low on fuel or food, those things are ALWAYS easily resolved. Like that stupid "Make booze from algae" thing.

Yeah, that straw man is an ASS!

The audience said the conflict should've lasted longer, which means they wanted it to last the entire 7 seasons straight with no resolution except maybe in the last minute of the series finale.

In DS9, Sisko had tensions with Odo and Kira for the 1st season. After that, things are resolved and whatever tensions between them are barely ever mentioned again. No one cared.

If VOY had done the same thing, you think the audience would've been OK with that?

How many characters actually died in the course of the series? Quick google search, 32. Nothing that would have kept them from writing any story they wanted.

They mentioned they needed everyone in the crew, to justify keeping the Maquis around.

But when they reference the count directly in episodes they don't even get it right. The count creeping down to 120-130 would have highlighted the danger of the situation, and it would have signaled the audience the writers gave a crap.

DS9 was in a worse situation than VOY, and no one cared we didn't see a casualty counter there.

Yeah, but the ones that should have had impact didn't have any at all. In Fury part of the ship gets ripped off five years back in time, and we are asked to accept that for the whole time Janeway, Tuvok and Kes all knew Kes would leave the ship and this had no impact on their actions whatsoever.

Just like TOS, TNG and DS9 then?