Actually it wasn't. Season 7 Ep 5 presented us with ''Critical Care'', where the Doctor was stolen, replaced with an inferior facsimilie, and Harry and Tom attempt to create similiar version, and fail.
Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link
- Thread starter Praxius
- Start date
I am amused by this, very much
It isn't Gilligan's syndrome if you never actually bear out the premise. You don't have to get them home just because they got closer. Again, "Message in a Bottle" actually got them closer by letting Starfleet know, "Hey, we're still out here."
That's progress. Didn't end the show but still progress.
Um, no. Unimatrix Zero ruined the Borg. Let's keep that one straight
Also, I'm still trying to figure out who this almighty, all seeing, all knowing, terrible god of VOY, called THE AUDIENCE, that destroyed it so efficiently-in 7 years. All the numbers and research that I can find point towards a positive reception of a number of VOY episodes, Scorpion included, so clearly the audience did not have a universal opinion.
Every iteration of Trek has its detractors. Heck, say Abrams name on the Internet and you'll have more opinions that if you asked them what is their favorite pizza.
Doubtful.
Those are not the only two reactions he could have had.
DS9 started having a plot that needed to be accomplished, so there certainly was a change there. A positive one, in my own view.
It isn't Gilligan's syndrome if you never actually bear out the premise. You don't have to get them home just because they got closer. Again, "Message in a Bottle" actually got them closer by letting Starfleet know, "Hey, we're still out here."
That's progress. Didn't end the show but still progress.
Um, no. Unimatrix Zero ruined the Borg. Let's keep that one straight
Also, I'm still trying to figure out who this almighty, all seeing, all knowing, terrible god of VOY, called THE AUDIENCE, that destroyed it so efficiently-in 7 years. All the numbers and research that I can find point towards a positive reception of a number of VOY episodes, Scorpion included, so clearly the audience did not have a universal opinion.
Every iteration of Trek has its detractors. Heck, say Abrams name on the Internet and you'll have more opinions that if you asked them what is their favorite pizza.
Or after Endgame, Enterprise fell through, and they had to scramble to get the band back together.
Voyager Season 8.
If %90 of Enterprise was finished, you could see how they would almost have no choice but to have had Voyager fallen through a whole in time to 2151 and intrude over the top of Mans release into a universe as minor proponent in the Temporal Cold War.
The amount of energy used by all the active players to hide from the 22nd century would have been the bare minimum to get away with their shenanigans...24th century sensors would be able to see every one doing everything, unless the factions were hiding from each other.
Voyager Season 8.
If %90 of Enterprise was finished, you could see how they would almost have no choice but to have had Voyager fallen through a whole in time to 2151 and intrude over the top of Mans release into a universe as minor proponent in the Temporal Cold War.
The amount of energy used by all the active players to hide from the 22nd century would have been the bare minimum to get away with their shenanigans...24th century sensors would be able to see every one doing everything, unless the factions were hiding from each other.
Well didn't "Q Who?" establish that if you weren't an immediate threat the Borg might ignore you suchas when they freely walked around a cube it wasn't until they started interferring in the operation of the cube that the Borg took action. So in the case of BOBW because they assimilated {Picard they knew how to defeat the deflector pulse and that it would burn out the deflector so that the Enterprise couldn't go to work in essence it would no longer be an immediate threat.
As for the mobile emitter that wasn't a back-up of the EMH it was the EMH a back-up is a second copy of something. So if you had a back-up of the EMH you could therortically have one in sickbay running and one with an away team running.
And I can think of at least one episode "Ashes to Ashes" were having two copies of the EMH would have been useful.
I said this a page ago.
(Grain of salt, if we are to believe early first season canon written by an idiot.)
The EMH was integrated into the Sickbays hardware.
He was part of the walls and couldn't be removed.
It's not that you can't copy his program, even though you can't, but more importantly you can't even see his program because it's stuck in the walls.
Undownloadable.
It's black box.
Maybe you could download parts of his program into mobile storage for transport like Moriarty had, but important bits of his code were glued into the walls that will not download, so that whatever swiss-cheese husk you did put into the mobile storage device, it wouldn't be a working EMH.
If I was to justify this without calling the author a moron, which I don't really feel like doing, s/he's a moron, this sounds more like a security feature to stop the proliferation of near sentient holograms by anyone that takes over the ship, or to stop a hologram who thinks it's a person who is considering taking over the galaxy from taking over the galaxy.
The fucker is code.
It's not a robot.
No hardware to his existence at all.
Hells, he's not even photons.
(You might as well say that you computer is made out of light because of the bright images on your monitor that you are currently interfacing with.)
And if there was hardware, take a fucking axe to the wall and haul it out, because its not like you need a sickbay any more because you're all bugging out.
(Is it me or would some of the crew be trying to screw in as many rooms as possible on the ship to say goodbye to the girl like a reverse-christening, and wouldn't others (with less access to sex) be taking a dump in as many rooms as possible to say hello to the next people who find Voyager floating in the void thousands of years later?)
Meanwhile I'm sure the Romulans, while they were taking Janeway Home (if they had taken her, which they didn't.) wouldn't be able to quickly reverse engineer him into a billion strong army of bald super soldiers who would take over the Alpha Quadrant for the glory of the Romulan Star Empire.
The Romulans are completely trustworthy with no history whatsoever of being lying, cheating bastards.
Even though Telek Rimor seemed to be a Friendly Romulan, I think it's possible that Janeway programmed the Doctor to believe a lie. A lie that his systems were integrated into Voyager and unremovable (when they really weren't, because that's just fucking ridiculous) because that's the same damn stupid lie she told the Kazon when they asked for a replicator please in the pilot, so that the Romulans wouldn't get their sticky fingers on their advanced holographic technology.
That shit is dangerous and valuable. YOU JUST DON'T GIVE IT AWAY!
Legally the ship should have been destroyed seconds after they left.
Although someone should have stayed behind to make sure the bomb blew up the ship.
Because that's the point of Caretaker: You can't trust timers.
You can't trust timers, otherwise they would have gone home in the pilot seconds before a timer blew up Caretaker's Array.
Lo it takes a billion years, someone was going to find that drifting ship and the natural course of their development is going to be altered which will severely jostle the balance of power in the sector, and Janeway would be responsible for those unforeseen, but possibly disastrous changes to the state of war and peace in the Delta Quadrant.
Of course they were going to scuttle Voyager.
DON'TBERIDICULOUS!
Janeway would have been Court Martialed if they didn't scuttle Voyager after they abandoned her.
They were lying to the Doctor.
"Turn me off before you leave."
#### turning you off, that crew, your "friends" were going to set the warp core to over load as they left, while the ship is charging a sun, but they were such a pack of pussies, they didn't tell you.
If he's just a light bulb, why try to spare his electronic feelings?
It was probably to spare Kes' feelings, since she has so much irrational childlike empathy, that she thinks that the EMH has real feelings, and that he might be concerned about being murdered.
(Grain of salt, if we are to believe early first season canon written by an idiot.)
The EMH was integrated into the Sickbays hardware.
He was part of the walls and couldn't be removed.
It's not that you can't copy his program, even though you can't, but more importantly you can't even see his program because it's stuck in the walls.
Undownloadable.
It's black box.
Maybe you could download parts of his program into mobile storage for transport like Moriarty had, but important bits of his code were glued into the walls that will not download, so that whatever swiss-cheese husk you did put into the mobile storage device, it wouldn't be a working EMH.
If I was to justify this without calling the author a moron, which I don't really feel like doing, s/he's a moron, this sounds more like a security feature to stop the proliferation of near sentient holograms by anyone that takes over the ship, or to stop a hologram who thinks it's a person who is considering taking over the galaxy from taking over the galaxy.
The fucker is code.
It's not a robot.
No hardware to his existence at all.
Hells, he's not even photons.
(You might as well say that you computer is made out of light because of the bright images on your monitor that you are currently interfacing with.)
And if there was hardware, take a fucking axe to the wall and haul it out, because its not like you need a sickbay any more because you're all bugging out.
(Is it me or would some of the crew be trying to screw in as many rooms as possible on the ship to say goodbye to the girl like a reverse-christening, and wouldn't others (with less access to sex) be taking a dump in as many rooms as possible to say hello to the next people who find Voyager floating in the void thousands of years later?)
Meanwhile I'm sure the Romulans, while they were taking Janeway Home (if they had taken her, which they didn't.) wouldn't be able to quickly reverse engineer him into a billion strong army of bald super soldiers who would take over the Alpha Quadrant for the glory of the Romulan Star Empire.
The Romulans are completely trustworthy with no history whatsoever of being lying, cheating bastards.
Even though Telek Rimor seemed to be a Friendly Romulan, I think it's possible that Janeway programmed the Doctor to believe a lie. A lie that his systems were integrated into Voyager and unremovable (when they really weren't, because that's just fucking ridiculous) because that's the same damn stupid lie she told the Kazon when they asked for a replicator please in the pilot, so that the Romulans wouldn't get their sticky fingers on their advanced holographic technology.
That shit is dangerous and valuable. YOU JUST DON'T GIVE IT AWAY!
Legally the ship should have been destroyed seconds after they left.
Although someone should have stayed behind to make sure the bomb blew up the ship.
Because that's the point of Caretaker: You can't trust timers.
You can't trust timers, otherwise they would have gone home in the pilot seconds before a timer blew up Caretaker's Array.
Lo it takes a billion years, someone was going to find that drifting ship and the natural course of their development is going to be altered which will severely jostle the balance of power in the sector, and Janeway would be responsible for those unforeseen, but possibly disastrous changes to the state of war and peace in the Delta Quadrant.
Of course they were going to scuttle Voyager.
DON'TBERIDICULOUS!
Janeway would have been Court Martialed if they didn't scuttle Voyager after they abandoned her.
They were lying to the Doctor.
"Turn me off before you leave."
#### turning you off, that crew, your "friends" were going to set the warp core to over load as they left, while the ship is charging a sun, but they were such a pack of pussies, they didn't tell you.
If he's just a light bulb, why try to spare his electronic feelings?
It was probably to spare Kes' feelings, since she has so much irrational childlike empathy, that she thinks that the EMH has real feelings, and that he might be concerned about being murdered.
Those stories all had plot holes and contrivances in them, but the audience ignores them because of the good.
VOY had it the reverse, the audience only care about the petty flaws and refused to see the good (Scorpion, Living Witness, etc).
They were the two most logical and reasonable reactions for him to have, and he had neither.
They could accomplish that plot without ending the show since they had other plots. Voyager only had one plot, and it couldn't be accomplished without ending the show.
And all that progress wouldn't mean anything until they got home, which they could never do without ending the show.
VOY Haters say it started with Scorpion.Um, no. Unimatrix Zero ruined the Borg. Let's keep that one straight
I never ran into anyone who wanted the leads in any other Trek to get sexually violated on-screen, I'd say that's a level of detractor no other Trek had to endure.
And if VOY had introduced those ideas, the audience would say it was stupid for the Borg to ignore people until they became a threat.
They only had enough processing power to run one Doctor at a time, but if one got destroyed another could be uploaded.
You can like something at the same time as levling critisim against it. You could argue the opposite and say VOY fans only care about the good and fail to see the bad. Many TV episodes/films have plot holes. I think part of the issue with VOY and it's plot issues such as the EMH not being able to be backed up is that they make a plot point of it in one episode and a few episodes later they have an entire story about a back-up of the EMH. Then later episodes they don't have one again, if you create a back-up copy once you can do it a second time, or a third and so on if needed. It's that level of inconsistance than can irk some fans of the show.
The question then becomes at what point to these plot holes become a distraction from the story, and this will vary from person to person. Some might be more forgiving than others.
The question then becomes at what point to these plot holes become a distraction from the story, and this will vary from person to person. Some might be more forgiving than others.
The Void was a really good episode.
@Anwar
There is plenty of distance in between "The Maquis/Starfleet conflict is forgotten after episode two and never referenced again" and "Everybody is at each others throats the entire series." Fans didn't want the opposite extreme, they just wanted to see some kind of ongoing disagreement of values. I would have been just as happy to see those come in the format of debate.
You really think they got the algae paste easily? They had to jump all their ships through dangerous radiation fields to get to the planet with the algae then expose themselves to attack to gather it and devote entire ships to process it. After that most of the crew was still starving. What more do you want? Also it was directly referenced that manufacturing ships exist where workers live in borderline slavery conditions. It sounds like for you to be satisfied they would have had to put the munitions count, viper count, and total food weight in the opening theme instead of just the living human count.
"They mentioned they needed everyone in the crew, to justify keeping the Maquis around."
They also said in The 37s that the ship could run with 100 crewmembers.
Suppose the crew compliment started dwindling down to around 130, 120. Wouldn't it have been a good story point that 'If too many more people die we won't be able to operate the ship?' Maybe made them show people working oppressively long shifts or have them consider hiring local aliens for short term assistance? I'd take that episode over 'Holodeck malfunction episode #456'.
Let me see if I understand your argument. They established a premise where crew would be unreplenishable. Then they did a lot of episodes where they redshirted minor characters to make an enemy seem threatening, which is itself a lazy crutch. Then, they didn't respect the premise and have this reduce the crew compliment, so they could continue using their lazy crutch. They worked around their bad writing by using more bad writing, as an excuse to continue doing bad writing. And you're saying this is a good thing?
@Anwar
There is plenty of distance in between "The Maquis/Starfleet conflict is forgotten after episode two and never referenced again" and "Everybody is at each others throats the entire series." Fans didn't want the opposite extreme, they just wanted to see some kind of ongoing disagreement of values. I would have been just as happy to see those come in the format of debate.
You really think they got the algae paste easily? They had to jump all their ships through dangerous radiation fields to get to the planet with the algae then expose themselves to attack to gather it and devote entire ships to process it. After that most of the crew was still starving. What more do you want? Also it was directly referenced that manufacturing ships exist where workers live in borderline slavery conditions. It sounds like for you to be satisfied they would have had to put the munitions count, viper count, and total food weight in the opening theme instead of just the living human count.
"They mentioned they needed everyone in the crew, to justify keeping the Maquis around."
They also said in The 37s that the ship could run with 100 crewmembers.
Suppose the crew compliment started dwindling down to around 130, 120. Wouldn't it have been a good story point that 'If too many more people die we won't be able to operate the ship?' Maybe made them show people working oppressively long shifts or have them consider hiring local aliens for short term assistance? I'd take that episode over 'Holodeck malfunction episode #456'.
Let me see if I understand your argument. They established a premise where crew would be unreplenishable. Then they did a lot of episodes where they redshirted minor characters to make an enemy seem threatening, which is itself a lazy crutch. Then, they didn't respect the premise and have this reduce the crew compliment, so they could continue using their lazy crutch. They worked around their bad writing by using more bad writing, as an excuse to continue doing bad writing. And you're saying this is a good thing?
The big problem was that it really was just a political disagreement and that melted away when everyone was fighting for survival. A religious disagreement probably would've worked better but they were already doing that on DS9.
The police men that hunted them for a crime that wasn't a crime, murdering half their friends and jailing the rest?
The Criminals who whacked their fair share of Starfleet officers and Starships in their pursuit of inappropriateness?
It was political until people died.
And then, it should have been most certainly personal.
The Criminals who whacked their fair share of Starfleet officers and Starships in their pursuit of inappropriateness?
It was political until people died.
And then, it should have been most certainly personal.
And they could have done that with Tom and Chakotay. Too bad that plot thread was dropped
Again, I have yet to see evidence of such pettiness, other than pettiness I see in EVERY iteration of Trek. Even TOS has this. I do not see VOY detractors as being any different than other detractors.
Again, no. They are among several reactions that he could have had, but are not requirements to inform us that he has changed.
Progress is not meaningless, while, unfortunately, most VOY plots felt meaningless. It isn't even the "Are they going to get home?" plot that we know they won't. It's more a matter of retreading broken holodeck stories, encountering the anomaly of the week, a'la TNG, it's not having believable characters or characters that I care about, it's bad science. These are the things that detract from VOY.
Episodes, even like "The Gift" presented us with a new way of getting them closer to home. Make that count. Make it count that they are trying to get home and expend resources to do so, and not paying lip service to it.
Not according to what I read. Unless you talk to the Seven of Nine detractors, in which case, they might have a point.
Sorry, there have been plenty of violent and abusive threats against Abrams, Pine, Quinto, Nimoy, and the like for what has been done in their films. I will not give them dignity by repeating them or looking them up.
The internet is full of people saying nasty things towards whatever object of their hatred they want to aim at. VOY is not unique, nor will it (unfortunately) stop because VOY is off the air.
Regardless of hyperbolic opinions for or against, VOY had problems, serious problems. The audience was not the one writing, producing or directing the show. The problems had to do with internal consistency, character development, and lack there of, and other things of that ilk.
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That's the problem with Voyager.
The entire crew was raped in the pilot.
Then later you have all these writers thinking of worse case scenarios for subsequent episodes where the crew might get raped or do get raped and then they have to stop, because then the story is just feebly repeating it self.
You almost feel sorry for Voyagers Writers Room.
The entire crew was raped in the pilot.
Then later you have all these writers thinking of worse case scenarios for subsequent episodes where the crew might get raped or do get raped and then they have to stop, because then the story is just feebly repeating it self.
You almost feel sorry for Voyagers Writers Room.
The show sucked.
It didn't but whatever.
It didn't but whatever.
It sucked outside of specifically and clearly defined, extremely narrow parameters.
I always hated when something happened to the gel packs.
The big problem was that the Maquis and Starfleet just weren't that different. Their only real source of disagreement was over the DMZ thing and that was now 75 years away.
Well, that's more or less what you wanted VOY to do. Whatwith keeping track of every single tiny thing.
Which means they didn't need ANY of the Maquis.
In NuBSG the engineering and maintenance staff had to be working those kinds of shifts, but it was never brought up and the Engineers NEVER complained.
And the premise forbade them from having external support from anyone.
That lazy crutch is how ALL the Treks made their enemies threatening.
It's really all that was left, given the straitjacket they were stuffed in and the unpleasable audience.
Were the Feds going out of their way to ruthlessly hunt down and kill any Maquis they could find? Were the Maquis doing everything they could to destroy every Fed settlement nearby and kill any Starfleet Officers in the region?
No, they weren't. For the most part the Maquis and Feds left each other alone unless they absolutely could not. They weren't real enemies.
They resolved it by having Tom save Chakotay. Unfortunately, they had that scene happen in the pilot.
If TNG had introduced the 8472 aliens, I doubt anyone would think they ruined the Borg.
He still didn't change from the experience.
It is if you have a Gilligan plot.
The complaint is that the Borg weren't exactly the way they were in TNG. In TNG we never once saw a Borg ship destroyed in a firefight with anyone. "Scorpion" showed Borg ships being destroyed in normal combat with someone, thus they Borg were not the way TNG portrayed them.
That it was with a superior opponent didn't matter, because to the detractors a force superior to the Borg should not exist even though TOS and TNG showed us many times that there were dozens of aliens out there that would wipe their rears with the Borg.
It had conceptual problems from day one and needed more time put into it to identify them and iron them out. But VOY didn't get that time.
Exactly. This was a tension that could have continued for a couple of episodes, not neat and tidy at the end. Instead we get two or three subplot of Neelix being jealous over Kes
Different audience, different time, different expectations. It is not apples to apples.
Subjective interpretation of the character, as well as how the audience responds to his actions from then on.
It didn't have to be that way. Also, the plot did not give reason for why the characters did not work.
You keep point back to the Gilligan plot, but that is an oversimplification that could be rectified by approaching it differently.
Ok, we will agree to disagree. Obviously, different opinions will differ on the data present. The general responses I have read on Scorpion are positive.
The Borg were thoroughly demystified and stripped of their villain status in "Unimatrix Zero" in my opinion. VOY did the Borg no favors having them show up again and again.
7 years is not enough time? Ok, that's just a nonsense statement. They clearly were doing something that kept them going for 7 years.
Again, it goes back to deficiencies in characters, which is not the audience's fault. Nor, as this discussion as allowed, is the opinion uniform on VOY from Trek fans. It isn't black and white.
Seven years of radically falling viewership.
They lost sometimes a million people every year until the show finished out (Endgame not included) at 2ish million people per episode.
The only reason that Voyager wasn't cancelled is because it had a natural expiration point at year seven and a premature death would effect the movies that were also selling less tickets (Insurrection was in 1998, how low did it take them to figure out that they were not allowed to make any more?), and they needed the time to get Enterprise sorted which was the answer to everything that was wrong with Voyager. The public would be amazed by Enterprise and keep tuned in, and obey all advertising aired during episodes of Enterprise. Voyager couldn't be fixed but it could be replaced by something better than could garner 10 millions viewers every week.
(It wasn't.)
They lost sometimes a million people every year until the show finished out (Endgame not included) at 2ish million people per episode.
The only reason that Voyager wasn't cancelled is because it had a natural expiration point at year seven and a premature death would effect the movies that were also selling less tickets (Insurrection was in 1998, how low did it take them to figure out that they were not allowed to make any more?), and they needed the time to get Enterprise sorted which was the answer to everything that was wrong with Voyager. The public would be amazed by Enterprise and keep tuned in, and obey all advertising aired during episodes of Enterprise. Voyager couldn't be fixed but it could be replaced by something better than could garner 10 millions viewers every week.
(It wasn't.)
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