Your Country's History

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I've always been, and always will be, proud to be an American (I feel the sudden need to sing Lee Greenwood songs ). But these last few years, I have felt an even greater amount of pride for my country, if for no other reason than this.

(Yes, I know there's some doubt as to exactly where baseball was invented, but we were the ones who turned it into a professional sport with leagues and teams and everything, so I think that counts!)

 

[Me-Ike]

PKTrekGirl, I feel like I couldn't do your post justice at this late hour of the night, so I'll leave it for tomorrow.

 

[Traveller]

Right. Two things before I leave this thread alone:

I am not saying this at all. And actually, I have never encountered anyone who says that we should feel guilty.

And I didn't say that you did, only that I encountered this attitude so often that I developed an aversion against it. Clearly we've had different experiences.

And state my belief that it is people like you who will make sure it never happens again. (...)But I am glad that there are sensitive people in Germany, who do not dismiss what happened out of hand, simply because they were not alive.

So, since I wrote in my first post that I don't feel guilty for what people did when even my parents weren't born, you infer that I'm one of those insensitive people who'd let a Fourth Reich happen again?

That's rich.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

PKTrekGirl, I feel like I couldn't do your post justice at this late hour of the night, so I'll leave it for tomorrow.

No problem - that's fine.

But you know...this dialogue reminds me of one I had with a Vietnamese man when I visited that country a few years ago.

I don't know if many of you recall, but there is a very famous photograph (LIFE Magazine cover) of a young girl, completely naked and covered with burns, running in the road, away from her burning village, which we had just napalmed.

There is a young boy in the photo as well, running next to her - the girl's brother.

I met that boy - now and adult with kids and probably grand-kids - when I visited his village in 2004.

Meeting that man was one of the most moving moments of my entire life, and I'll never forget it. And I, like you, felt a need to apologize, despite the fact that I was no older than that little girl - his sister - at the time the events took place.

When I told this man how sorry I was, his eyes welled up with tears and he threw his arms around me - I could see he was so grateful. Grateful that someone was willing to own up - to acknowledge his pain.

It wasn't about 'blame'. It was about owning up to my countries' mistakes, and acknowledging the pain it had caused his family. The pain it had caused HIM.

There was something freeing in that - on both sides. It was like a weight being lifted....and an understanding forged.

I will never forget that moment...nor will I forget the long conversations I had with some of my Japanese co-workers, over many drinks in a Tokyo bar, about WWII. They invaded Pearl Harbor and brought us into the war...we dropped the bomb on them and wiped out two entire cities. Dangerous territory for conversation, for sure...but we got through it...and I think the conversation MEANT something to all of us. I know that it meant something to me!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Especially if the OP is from Germany, this is an important point I want to make.

There is NO reason not to be proud of your country because of the errors--even the grave ones--of a prior generation. When the current generation is acting better, they should NOT be punished for the crimes of their forbears or have to feel ashamed. (Wait...I think that's Trek!) That's also a tough thing in the US--our society is big on punishing certain segments of the population for crimes that were committed by their ancestors and not by them. Doesn't matter how good an attitude you have about other races, religions, or whatnot...if you're of the wrong group, you get punished as though you were one of the bigots that preceded you. And that is NOT fair. You should be judged on YOUR behavior, YOUR character, not that of others of your race, or your ancestors.

I am proud of the principles my country was founded upon, and I am proud of the majority of its people. Where the government has strayed from these principles, I will not let that pass by me, but I also will NOT give in to some sort of self-flagellation. Productive work to fix what's wrong is the right answer, not hating my country.

 

[Kegg]

I'm Irish and that doesn't particularly trouble me. I don't feel great guilt regarding my country's past or even recent past or a particular animosity towards the traditional British foe. It doesn't particularly interest me, either - it's just who I am. Most of what would interest posters here would probably be the very recent past - Northern Ireland - but that's essentially another country to me. I went to China long before I ever set foot in Belfast.

Actually, I think you have alot to be proud of. For a relatively small country, Italy

Oh, you Americans. It had never occured to me to think of Italy as a small country, but that's my good old fashioned Eurocentrism.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Spend 4 days in a car crossing the US and you'll see what we mean about the size of this place. 2 days JUST for Texas (1 if you're willing to start way early in the morning and finish way late at night). And that doesn't even count how long it would take to cross Alaska, or the time it takes to get to Hawaii.

I think Canada's even "worse" in that regard. (Any Canadians who can say how many days it takes to drive coast to coast in Canada?)

 

[PKTrekGirl]

And state my belief that it is people like you who will make sure it never happens again. (...)But I am glad that there are sensitive people in Germany, who do not dismiss what happened out of hand, simply because they were not alive.

So, since I wrote in my first post that I don't feel guilty for what people did when even my parents weren't born, you infer that I'm one of those insensitive people who'd let a Fourth Reich happen again?

That's rich.

I have no idea what you would or wouldn't do - I've never even spoken to you before today. Clearly, you resent me though...and what I represent about Germany's recent past. And so I can't exactly help not putting my full and complete trust in you. I'd certainly hope and would like to believe you wouldn't let it happen again....but let's just say I have alot more confidence in guys like Me-Ike.

I mean, if the roles were reversed, and my grandparents were responsible for whipping out half your family...and I didn't even seem to CARE, but just tossed it off with a "wasn't me!" commentary...would YOU fully trust ME to not let it happen again???

Now, I'm not saying you have to run around constantly apologizing.....but you don't have to be so militantly NON-apologetic either.

There is a place between those two extremes. And that place is where trust is born.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I think Canada's even "worse" in that regard. (Any Canadians who can say how many days it takes to drive coast to coast in Canada?)

Can't speak about east to west...but I know it took me and my ex-hubby a week to drive from Anchorage to Seattle.

Now true, we were hauling a trailer and stopped for alot of Alcan sightseeing.....but still, it was a damn long ride.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Sure, my country's History affects me. I relate very strongly to the Revolution and the Founding Fathers, especially Jefferson and Franklin. I consider it my responsibility to do everything I can to promote the values that the United States was founded on and bring our ideals closer to reality, as well as to oppose the groups that want to undermine those ideals and take over.

As for feeling guilty over anything bad that was done, I have no reason to. Anything bad was caused by traitors and failures, by definition.

 

[Count Zero]

There is NO reason not to be proud of your country because of the errors--even the grave ones--of a prior generation. When the current generation is acting better, they should NOT be punished for the crimes of their forbears or have to feel ashamed.

Well, I agree about not being punished for what your ancestors did. But I think you can't have it both ways. If you're proud of the good things your country brought forth, you also have to be ashamed of the bad things. I think it would be a bit weird to be proud of things you didn't help to achieve but at the same time dismissing shame and guilt over things because you didn't do anything to bring them about, either.
I just can't bring myself to wave the flag or stuff like that, even though the flag itself stands for things like freedom because I also think of the history of the country it represents. Even without the Holocaust there are a lot of dark spots in that history. And then I don't feel like waving the flag anymore.

I mean, if the roles were reversed, and my grandparents were responsible for whipping out half your family...and I didn't even seem to CARE, but just tossed it off with a "wasn't me!" commentary...would YOU fully trust ME to not let it happen again???

I'm sorry, but that comment is full of assumptions. You assume Traveller's grandparents were actually responsible for the Holocaust, which is rather offensive.
The Holocaust and WWII is far removed from today's generation, so demanding that someone who just happens to be born in Germany apologises for something he himself, most likely his parents and often even his grandparents had no involvement is a bit over the top.
Then insinuating he might let another genocide happen, if he doesn't want to, is also quite offensive.

 

[Kegg]

Sure, my country's History affects me. I relate very strongly to the Revolution and the Founding Fathers, especially Jefferson and Franklin.

...

As for feeling guilty over anything bad that was done, I have no reason to. Anything bad was caused by traitors and failures, by definition.

Well, what about Jefferson owning slaves and all that?

I's curious.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

There is NO reason not to be proud of your country because of the errors--even the grave ones--of a prior generation. When the current generation is acting better, they should NOT be punished for the crimes of their forbears or have to feel ashamed.

Well, I agree about not being punished for what your ancestors did. But I think you can't have it both ways. If you're proud of the good things your country brought forth, you also have to be ashamed of the bad things. I think it would be a bit weird to be proud of things you didn't help to achieve but at the same time dismissing shame and guilt over things because you didn't do anything to bring them about, either.
I just can't bring myself to wave the flag or stuff like that, even though the flag itself stands for things like freedom because I also think of the history of the country it represents. Even without the Holocaust there are a lot of dark spots in that history. And then I don't feel like waving the flag anymore.

If you're making it stand for something better, through your actions, then there should be no reason not to celebrate. I even saw it caused a controversy in Germany when some people painted themselves in national colors for a soccer game. When I read that, as an American, I saw absolutely nothing wrong with it. Supporting the team, showing your country supports it, and having a little fun are all perfectly fine. I mean, ESPECIALLY in the context of a sports match, as an outsider I certainly wouldn't confuse that with some sort of support of atrocities!

You don't have to forget the bad things. Awareness and understanding should be mandatory--beating yourself up and condemning yourself for any positive feeling isn't. By working to hold a higher standard, that in and of itself is enough--your actions will speak for themselves through how you are as a person and the impact you have on those you come into contact with. You shouldn't have to hate yourself or where you're from as some sort of penance.

(BTW, to see an interesting Trek parallel, watch the way most of the "Cardassian Crew" act. You'll notice that with only two exceptions, it's actually the most ardent Cardassian fans who will stomp all over Occupation-deniers and Dukat-excusers. But we still love the Cardassians for their potential, for what they could become after the Dominion War, and we show it unreservedly and hail the heroes who stood up against the corrupt regime as examples of what we want to see happen.)

 

[Count Zero]

I even saw it caused a controversy in Germany when some people painted themselves in national colors for a soccer game. When I read that, as an American, I saw absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Within the context of sports is pretty much the only time it's considered ok to dress up in German colours and wave the flag.
The controversy you're probably referring to wasn't about just one game, it was more about the patriotic delirium during the Football World Cup 2006 in Germany, where almost everyone flew the colours of the flag in some way. There was only very little outrage, though, I think. (There was also some anger among nationalists because it were the 'wrong' colours, they prefer the ones from the old Imperial flag, black, white and red.)
But that was also the occasion I alluded to in my previous post. I couldn't bring myself to wear or wave the flag.

You don't have to forget the bad things. Awareness and understanding should be mandatory--beating yourself up and condemning yourself for any positive feeling isn't.

You shouldn't have to hate yourself or where you're from as some sort of penance.

I don't. I'm perfectly alright with where I come from. There is plenty of room between the two extremes, I think. I'm quite happy with us being more reserved towards our country and not engaging in mindless patriotism (well, not all too often, anyway).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I even saw it caused a controversy in Germany when some people painted themselves in national colors for a soccer game. When I read that, as an American, I saw absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Within the context of sports is pretty much the only time it's considered ok to dress up in German colours and wave the flag.
The controversy you're probably referring to wasn't about just one game, it was more about the patriotic delirium during the Football World Cup 2006 in Germany, where almost everyone flew the colours of the flag in some way. There was only very little outrage, though, I think. (There was also some anger among nationalists because it were the 'wrong' colours, they prefer the ones from the old Imperial flag, black, white and red.)
But that was also the occasion I alluded to in my previous post. I couldn't bring myself to wear or wave the flag.

And I still don't even see how it was "delirium." You guys were hosting the World Cup...it was a SPORTS thing, for crying out loud! Hell, acting like that is even a good psychological ploy against the other team! Seeing support of the opposition everywhere they go while in-country can either demoralize a team or get them riled up. And a team in either state is one that scores fewer goals and gets more penalties.

Personally, when all of that was happening, I was very happy for you guys, to see you cut loose and have fun in the present, for who you are NOW.

Patriotism, even celebrating loudly and brightly doesn't have to be mindless. Take America. I know our history has fallen quite short of perfect, but I have no problem flying the flag or celebrating the good things. Not only does that honor the good things, but it's a reminder of how we can use those positive values to fix things that aren't working right.

To shift to a different topic for a bit, to illustrate my point...I won't stop celebrating Christmas and Easter, or telling people that I do or decorating for it, just because some Christians have been jerks. I know what it means to me and what values it SHOULD embody, and if I am doing my best to stand for that and not the unkindness or cruelty, then I am not going to let the jerks ruin it for me.

 

[Trippy]

Another Canadian who is rather proud of her young country, despite some mistakes along the way (as Canadave mentioned-the interrment of the Japanese-Canadians during WWII; the treatment of immigrants; the native populace slowly losing their land; the Dionne quintuplets treatment; etc).

I can only guess at the drive from the Atlantic to Pacific Oceans across Canada (2nd largest country!) but my guess would be about a week to 10 days (I know from Ontario to Newfoundland it is 3 days)

 

[Count Zero]

Patriotism, even celebrating loudly and brightly doesn't have to be mindless. Take America. I know our history has fallen quite short of perfect, but I have no problem flying the flag or celebrating the good things. Not only does that honor the good things, but it's a reminder of how we can use those positive values to fix things that aren't working right.

Well, respectfully, I'd say that the USA is not really a good example. It's a sort of poster child for mindless patriotism, to be honest. (That doesn't mean that all of it is mindless or all Americans are mindless or anything like that. I don't mean to cause offense.)

Regarding the World Cup, I think it was rather balanced because there were enough people supporting the other teams. I went to see some games in public because I didn't have a tv set and there were plenty of Germans cheering for Trinidad, Sweden and England (like me, for one).

 

[Jeri]

I can only guess at the drive from the Atlantic to Pacific Oceans across Canada (2nd largest country!) but my guess would be about a week to 10 days (I know from Ontario to Newfoundland it is 3 days)

I just tried to Google Maps it; and from Torbay, Newfoundland to Vancouver they said it takes 3 days, 5 hours straight. And the recommended route is I-90 through the U.S!

3 days, 5 hours = 77 hours driving. So if you drove 7 hours a day, that would be 11 days.

 

[Trippy]

Yup...that sounds about right!

Hell, just driving from one end of Ontario to another right along Lake Ontario takes about 7 hours or more!

 

[Jeri]

Trippy, why did they suggest using a US interstate highway? Is it just because it's Google? Pardon this stupid question, but do you all have interstates coast to coast?