You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[HaventGotALife]

Did you see Star Trek: Generations? There, you have the potential of Picard in pain, the aftermath of the Borg (and Soran's nihilism), having the two crews unite (at least Kirk and Picard), the destruction of the Enterprise-D, the promise of the Nexus described by Guinan, etc. THAT'S the most disappointing moment in this series.

Insurrection should've been about the ravages of war and what steps a desperate society will take to save itself. The tone of the movie was simply a mismatch for the background of the story. People are dying in the most devastating war in the history of the Federation and we have Picard doing a mambo and Riker and Troi taking bubble baths.

I have gone through some trauma in my life, nothing I want to get into, but I have been through my own personal Dominion War. In the wake of that, I valued all the little things that life offered me, that were good. Everything from small amounts of chocolate to the sun coming up in the morning filled me with joy. Think of someone with a near-death experience that values life more because they have it.

Not everyone reacts to trauma by singing an opera about the subject, wallowing in it. Some hold their loved ones a little tighter, small things become big things, and this shows, in the wake of the war, while DS9 is doing the operatic song, that people return to a sense of normalcy, even taking delight in things they used to find mundane. And to be honest, I didn't value this movie until I had gone through that personal hell. Then I watched it over and over again. Laughing at the small jokes, taking delight in being explorers (Data petting the fish, Picard looking out the window at the planet, for instance). Over and over again.

As far as the production of the movie, and its timing, I found it a welcomed change-of-pace from DS9. I still love DS9, but this was different and I welcomed it.

 

[AgentCoop]

Generations certainly has it's flaws, but I found it quite enjoyable. I enjoy Insurrection, but it's the only chapter in the saga where I want to slap the stupid out of Picard.

Nope. My "slap Picard" is saved for Nemesis. He has this leader, who promises peace, but shows that he wants anything but. He has thalaron Radiation stabilized into a weapon, a ship that is built for war, and Picard is looking through old photos of himself because it happens to be a clone. His hubris that Shinzon is Picard, and therefore he's incapable of the acts that Shinzon is showing he is capable of doing, puts the Enterprise and the Federation in peril. Without that arrogance, the movie goes nowhere and makes no sense.

Furthermore, after Shinzon's death, he hesitates. The Enterprise is about to be destroyed and he waits. Stunned that Shinzon, himself, was so angry and self-destructive and vengeful, that he pulls the spear that will kill him, further into his body to get to his nemesis. If it wasn't for Data, and his insubordination, the Enterprise is destroyed. Time to retire, old man.

Points taken. So there are two movies where Picard acts like an ass.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It's very gratifying to know that I am not alone in my appreciation of STAR TREK: Insurrection! Whatever its shortcomings are in terms of the script, they are most assuredly compensated for, in terms of its director ...

 

[T'Girl]

So there are two movies where Picard acts like an ass.

And really more than a few of the episodes too. Like all of us, Picard sees the world through his own eyes, than doesn't make him right when he does it.

Picard was (at times) a pompous arrogant man, who lived in philosophical bubble that didn't alway agree with the universe outside of it. His insistence that the well being of several hundred people was more important than that of several billions is one example of this.

(His claim that Starfleet wasn't the Federation's military is another)

 

[AgentCoop]

So there are two movies where Picard acts like an ass.

And really more than a few of the episodes too. Like all of us, Picard sees the world through his own eyes, than doesn't make him right when he does it.

Picard was (at times) a pompous arrogant man, who lived in philosophical bubble that didn't alway agree with the universe outside of it. His insistence that the well being of several hundred people was more important than that of several billions is one example of this.

(His claim that Starfleet wasn't the Federation's military is another)

True. And it creates some really unfortunate implications in Insurrection. From where I sit, the Baku and the S'ona are basically interchangeable. They are both motivated by a desire for immortality (the Baku with keeping it, the S'ona with getting it back), and neither one cares who suffers because of it. But the S'ona are "ugly" and the Baku are "pretty" so the pretty people must be good.

 

[JarodRussell]

So there are two movies where Picard acts like an ass.

And really more than a few of the episodes too. Like all of us, Picard sees the world through his own eyes, than doesn't make him right when he does it.

Picard was (at times) a pompous arrogant man, who lived in philosophical bubble that didn't alway agree with the universe outside of it. His insistence that the well being of several hundred people was more important than that of several billions is one example of this.

(His claim that Starfleet wasn't the Federation's military is another)

True. And it creates some really unfortunate implications in Insurrection. From where I sit, the Baku and the S'ona are basically interchangeable. They are both motivated by a desire for immortality (the Baku with keeping it, the S'ona with getting it back), and neither one cares who suffers because of it. But the S'ona are "ugly" and the Baku are "pretty" so the pretty people must be good.

If I win the lottery, do other people, who have less luck than me, have the right to break into my home and steal from me?
If I have a healthy pair of kidneys, does someone who needs a kidney have the right to assault me and steal it from me?

And similar analogies.

The Ba'ku weren't even ASKED if they wanted to give other people access to their radiation. It was decided to take it away from them without their knowledge. Oh and Picard - in the very film - suggests that the Son'a set up a colony, who - at that point in the film - weren't known to be Ba'ku offsprings. So that means that other offworlders could have set up a colony as well.

 

[AgentCoop]

If you win the lottery, you're not obligated to share that money or give any of it to charity. If you have healthy kidneys, you're not obligated to volunteer to be an organ donor.

But it doesn't make you any less of a jerk for not doing so.

 

[T'Girl]

No to breaking and entry. No to stealing. However if your lottery winning are place in orbit of the planet (or simply scattered into a stiff wind) you wouldn't have much say if others collect your money.

If I have a healthy pair of kidneys, does someone who needs a kidney have the right to assault me and steal it from me?

No, because your kidneys are not something you happened upon, you were born with them.

If you were born next to a clear running stream, you might not have any say if others dam or divert that stream for their own use.

The Ba'ku weren't even ASKED if they wanted to give other people access to their radiation.

Nor did the Baku, who possess warp driven ship (ships) offer their discovery to the species of the galaxy. They would have realized fairly quickly that there was something special about the planet.

They told no one.

What assholes.

Oh and Picard - in the very film - suggests that the Son'a set up a colony

The Sona didn't have that kind of time, a fact that was pointed out to Picard as soon as his "suggestion" was out of his mouth.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If you win the lottery, you're not obligated to share that money or give any of it to charity. If you have healthy kidneys, you're not obligated to volunteer to be an organ donor.

But it doesn't make you any less of a jerk for not doing so.

People who don't give all their money away, or donate their organs whenever the mood strikes them, are not being jerks. That would imply that they have obligations to do so. Now don't get me wrong, donating money or organs is a good thing; but we have no right to require people to be saints. People should do those things because they WANT to, not because society shames them into it.

To put it another way: Let's say that my next door neighbor has a Porsche, and I have no car at all. Do I have the right to force him to give me his car? Is he being a jerk because he doesn't give it to me? No on both counts, of course. If he spontaneously decides to give me the car, then that's fine; but I have no right to make him give it to me, and he's not a jerk for keeping what is rightfully his.
Similarly: If my lawn mower breaks, I can't force my neighbor to give me his, or to mow my lawn for me. If he decides on his own to help me (or if I ask, and he agrees), then great! But that's the end of it, really.

As for the Ba'ku: Firstly, there's no indication that the Son'a/Section 31 (yes, we all know it's Section 31, it's obvious) plan would even work in the first place. The radiation works in that planetary system, but that's because it's natural for it to do so. There is no proof that the process would work if created artificially. Secondly, the Prime Directive applies. The Ba'ku happened upon that planet before anyone else did, and therefore, it's theirs. They have the absolute right to do with it what they wish - especially since they are not members of the Federation, and therefore Federation policy does not apply to them. Case closed.

 

[AgentCoop]

^Nope. Case not closed. As far as the movie is concerned, the planet is Federation property. At NO POINT in the movie is that point EVER disputed, even by the Baku. And if the planet DOES belong to the Baku, it belongs to the S'ona as well. Which means the S'ona have just as much claim to the rings. Which means the Baku would be LUCKY to have the Federation step in and move them, because left to their own devices the S'ona would likely have just burned the planet with the Baku still on it.

And I realize it's a matter of personal choice, but in my opinion otherwise healthy people who don't sign up to be organ donors are kind of being selfish jerks.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The planet is not Federation property. It may be in Federation SPACE, but that doesn't mean anything. That planet only becomes part of the Federation if it asks to join and is granted. If it doesn't do so, then the Federation can't do jackshit about it.

 

[BillJ]

As for the Ba'ku: Firstly, there's no indication that the Son'a/Section 31 (yes, we all know it's Section 31, it's obvious)

I wish one-hundred years of sonic diarrhea on the dipshit who created Section 31. I get tired of people claiming it's Section 31 every time a Federation official does something morally ambiguous.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

in my opinion otherwise healthy people who don't sign up to be organ donors are kind of being selfish jerks.

Uh huh. So what alternative do you suggest? Forcing people to donate? That's where that kind of reasoning leads.

@BillJ: Perhaps. But the fact remains, Section 31 does exist. And let's face it, everything about Admiral Dougherty just screams it. There may be room for some kinds of ambiguity, but not this. The kinds of things Dougherty was into? The Federation simply doesn't do that. It's above that kind of criminality.

"Sonic diarrhea"?

 

[AgentCoop]

The planet is not Federation property. It may be in Federation SPACE, but that doesn't mean anything. That planet only becomes part of the Federation if it asks to join and is granted. If it doesn't do so, then the Federation can't do jackshit about it.

In the first place, as I said, the movie seems to disagree with you. But even if that's true, you're completely ignoring my second point: If the planet belongs to the Baku, it also belongs to the S'ona.

EDIT: And I never said anyone should be forced to do anything. I expressed a personal opinion. Kindly don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Agreed on that last bit. So let's run with that: If Dougherty's plan never existed, and the Son'a were the only ones trying to exploit the Ba'ku, the Federation couldn't do anything about it. But that's not what happened, is it?

 

[DonIago]

Actually? Mandatory organ donation doesn't seem like the worst idea ever, if we're talking post-death at least. I mean really, you're not getting any use out of them anymore...

It's my understanding that when the Baku found the planet it was already claimed by an interstellar power that later ceded the area to the Federation. In short, at best the Baku were ignorant of the existing claim; at worst they deliberately flaunted said claim.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually? Mandatory organ donation doesn't seem like the worst idea ever, if we're talking post-death at least.

Perhaps not, but that's a slippery slope if there ever was one. Any society that requires organ donation *after* death is just one step away from requiring it before. I mean, you only need one kidney, right?

 

[BillJ]

^ Agreed on that last bit. So let's run with that: If Dougherty's plan never existed, and the Son'a were the only ones trying to exploit the Ba'ku, the Federation couldn't do anything about it. But that's not what happened, is it?

It seems the S'ona recognize that the planet belongs to the Federation or else they would have fried the Ba'ku and collected the particles. It seems like everyone in the movie acknowledges the planet belongs to the Federation, even Picard doesn't argue about ownership.

As far as Section 31 goes: why would the Federation not order everyone out of the area and allow the Ba'ku to be alone instead of saying the removal was "under review"? Why would Dougherty take an unknown element in Data into such a secret mission? Why would Section 31 even care about wasting time recreating the Ba'ku village when it could have simply scooped them up and dumped them someplace remote where no one would ever find them (or just outright kill them)? It makes no sense as a Section 31 mission.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Maybe they thought that doing those things would attract too much attention and/or be too risky. I'm sure Dougherty was given some degree of leeway as to how he carried out his orders, after all. He could have simply been cautious.

 

[BillJ]

^ Maybe they thought that doing those things would attract too much attention and/or be too risky. I'm sure Dougherty was given some degree of leeway as to how he carried out his orders, after all. He could have simply been cautious.

You mean attract more attention than taking the second officer from the flagship of the Federation along? Section 31 has never seemed like the type of group to allow leeway.

You're really reaching to try and pin this on someone other than the Federation Council and Starfleet.