You don't like THAT?!

[I am not Spock]

Exactly. And since Starfleet is a uniformed service, that definitely should apply to them.

Professionalism is what you make of it. Male officers are wearing what it's virtually a primary-colored pajamas. Do you think it's professional for a uniformed service? They look more like circus performers than soldiers. You have a problem with it, too, or you have it only with the female version? if so, why?

Makes me think of the webpage that makes you guess which are TNG episode titles and which are the titles of Christian Heavy Metal band songs. "Want people wearing tight outfits and too much makeup to moralize at you? You can turn on an episode of Star Trek, or you can trundle on down to the nearest Christian Heavy Metal concert -- it's up to you."

Really, Star Trek uniforms are quite colorful: you've got the Starfleet personnel in their tight primary-colored pajamas; Cardassians in all black Spandex and rubber; Klingons as a bunch of Hell's angels drinking in a bar and listening to Motorhead (with their women sporting enormous Klingon Kleavage); and the Borg, to borrow John Scalzi's description, "like Tin Man at the Goth night at the local leather bar".

LOL, thanks man. That made me laugh!

I thought I was the only one who reckoned Klingons looked like a bunch of 80s metalheads!

 

[Disillusioned]

I'll also say that I completely agree with everyone who hates the catsuits/miniskirts, and that it's not a hatred of those items in general, but because they're being used as a uniform -and only for women, at that. It's when you have "uniforms" for women that are so obviously slanted towards targeting the male demographic that it really annoys me. http://www.travelpod.com/travel-pho...spiring-shoes-of-the-greek-army.jpg/tpod.html

That's my main problem too. Not sure if that got across in the discussion that went on. I'm hardly a prude, but when they do something ridiculous like that it definitely takes my out of the story and really grates on me.

 

[Possum]

I'll also say that I completely agree with everyone who hates the catsuits/miniskirts, and that it's not a hatred of those items in general, but because they're being used as a uniform -and only for women, at that. It's when you have "uniforms" for women that are so obviously slanted towards targeting the male demographic that it really annoys me. http://www.travelpod.com/travel-pho...spiring-shoes-of-the-greek-army.jpg/tpod.html

That's my main problem too. Not sure if that got across in the discussion that went on. I'm hardly a prude, but when they do something ridiculous like that it definitely takes my out of the story and really grates on me.

^This- totally agree.

Things that others dislike that surprise me:
Luxwana Troi
The William Shatner hate previously mentioned
Bajoran political episodes
First season of DS9
Star Trek V

Also I never knew that Patrick Stewart caused such controversy The nearest to undress I ever recall was in the episode where he met Vash on Risa and was wearing an open shirt and short shorts. For the record I think he was quite good looking.

 

[DevilEyes]

I'll also say that I completely agree with everyone who hates the catsuits/miniskirts, and that it's not a hatred of those items in general, but because they're being used as a uniform -and only for women, at that. It's when you have "uniforms" for women that are so obviously slanted towards targeting the male demographic that it really annoys me.

That's my main problem too. Not sure if that got across in the discussion that went on. I'm hardly a prude, but when they do something ridiculous like that it definitely takes my out of the story and really grates on me.

^This- totally agree.

Things that others dislike that surprise me:
Luxwana Troi
The William Shatner hate previously mentioned
Bajoran political episodes
First season of DS9
Star Trek V

Also I never knew that Patrick Stewart caused such controversy The nearest to undress I ever recall was in the episode where he met Vash on Risa and was wearing an open shirt and short shorts. For the record I think he was quite good looking.

You had me in agreement (well, for the most part - I am not crazy about Lwaxana, although I don't hate her) until you mentioned STV.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Worf seemed to value traditional marriage, and a lot of times for someone with those values, past partners outside of a marriage would be a dealbreaker.

I think you are confusing the western concept of traditional marriage with klingon cultural norms. Worf is surely a traditionalist, but a klingon one, not human. He was into honor duel and blood feuds, something you don't see often in western culture.

Worf was raised by humans. Why should his behavior be governed by klingon social norms?

It's a fair question. However, it seems that Worf, given his unusual raising, always made a point for sticking to klingon tradition and ethos, even when actual people of the Empire would be more flexible. More klingon than klingon, so to speak.

Ah, but when you're on duty, your attention should be on your job, not on how great your coworkers look.

Multitasking.

Spartans, Romans, Scots, and a whole lotta other people disagree.

They didn't have pants back then. They had a cloth they wrapped around their hips and between their legs to cover that up and put a tunic over it. And they also tended to wear greaves over their legs for some protection if they had enough money for them. Of course that's ancient times. Much later men still wore tights. Standards have changed, thankfully.

Again, my point is that military dress change with age and location.

Oh, the great mini skirt debate. It shall rage on for all eternity... or until we give up those prejudices. Regarding both sides of the argument.

But all these differing opinions make for interesting conversation, right? =)

Yeah, I agree. I don't think I will be able to convince anyone, but it's still interesting to hear other people's opinions. I can obviously see how a miniskirt is not a good dress for operative duty. I do not contest that. OTOH, I'm not so sure about it being improper for professional or formal dress.

"Professional dress" does still vary from place to place. My uncle, who was pretty high up in the Ministry of Tourism in Bermuda, tells the story of how he was almost not allowed into an official function in New York because he was wearing a suit jacket, tie, and (Bermuda) shorts with knee socks.

My point exactly. Thank you.

Male officers are wearing what it's virtually a primary-colored pajamas. Do you think it's professional for a uniformed service?

You mean like these?

[image edited for shortness's sake]

As you can see, the primary colored pajamas have their basis in reality. The US Navy uses vests and sweaters vs. shirts, but they still use primary colors to denote duties on aircraft carriers.

FWIW, I consider US aircraft carrier personnel to be extremely professional uniformed servicemen and women.

Yes, miniskirts were just the 60s style, and totally impractical. If for no other reason than the stockings would run constantly! But I think the male uniforms are great, and not nearly as outlandish as you make them out to be.

Well, carrier personnel wear primarily colored jackets to be visible from long distances and be recognized immediately for their duties. I'm not sure the same applies to Starfleet personnel, too. What advantage is there to distinguish a command officer from a science one from 500 m? Except for snipers, that's it.

"Professional dress" does still vary from place to place.

Not amongst the uniformed services.

In modern times and the western world, I agree. But that's mostly due to the West's influence on the world at large, not any intrinsic absolute standard for formal dresses that lies beyond time and space.

And a comment on a way earlier post, re: ancient modes of dress:

They did have pants in ancient Roman times, it was just that the Romans considered them barbaric; the toga was a sign of civilization/culture, as well as a mark of status. Also, the toga's not a good representative of a uniform; it's so bulky that you can't really move in one (especially if you wear it without pins holding it together, as you're supposed to.)

No, the toga was not an uniform, but a civilian formal dress. But Roman legionary wore a short tunica under their armor, and no pants.

 

[toughlittleship]

Dukat and Winn and Dukat's Pah-wraith alliance. It makes perfect sense that Dukat would use the Pah-wraith to destroy the Bajorans, as well as giving him the power he also craved.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

<snip>

Also I never knew that Patrick Stewart caused such controversy The nearest to undress I ever recall was in the episode where he met Vash on Risa and was wearing an open shirt and short shorts. For the record I think he was quite good looking.

I recently re-watched that ep. At one point Mr Stewart wears a pair of pants that shows what side he leans to. Very clearly. If you catch my drift.

I didnt mind!

 

[Disillusioned]

It's a fair question. However, it seems that Worf, given his unusual raising, always made a point for sticking to klingon tradition and ethos, even when actual people of the Empire would be more flexible. More klingon than klingon, so to speak.

I got that impression myself.

Multitasking.

No. And I say this as a hotblooded young man who absolutely loves women.

Again, my point is that military dress change with age and location.

They haven't changed significantly in a century. And just as importantly it's being made for a modern audience.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think I will be able to convince anyone, but it's still interesting to hear other people's opinions. I can obviously see how a miniskirt is not a good dress for operative duty. I do not contest that. OTOH, I'm not so sure about it being improper for professional or formal dress.

It is in a military environment. If it were up to me I'd get rid of skirts altogether as an option for female uniforms, and tie tabs, too while I was at it.

In modern times and the western world, I agree. But that's mostly due to the West's influence on the world at large, not any intrinsic absolute standard for formal dresses that lies beyond time and space.

Of course Earth seems to have a pretty heavy influence on the Federation, and there seems to still be a pretty heavy Western influence on Earth.

No, the toga was not an uniform, but a civilian formal dress. But Roman legionary wore a short tunica under their armor, and no pants.

Again, ancient times, and even then they usually wore greaves to protect their shins

 

[DevilEyes]

Dukat and Winn and Dukat's Pah-wraith alliance. It makes perfect sense that Dukat would use the Pah-wraith to destroy the Bajorans, as well as giving him the power he also craved.

The most serious problems with that storyline:

- it is a plot device rather than something that flows organically from the characterization, so Dukat is made to do and say things that make no sense, just in order to set up a Sisko/Dukat conflict: forgiving Damar completely for killing Ziyal, while blaming Sisko of all people. WTF? What did Sisko have to do with it? At least if he blamed Kira or Garak or anyone who was either 1) at the station at the time of the Occupation, or 2) was close to Ziyal, it could have made some convoluted sense - at least you could say that he blamed that person for influencing her and making her "betray" him. But Sisko?

About the only way I could have made sense of it would've been if it hadn't really been Dukat, but Damar's hallucination of Dukat, just like Damar, Kira and Weyoun were Dukat's hallucinations in "Waltz", since the whole thing is just like wishful thinking by Damar. "Hello, Damar, old friend. Oh, I don't worry, I don't hold any grudges for you murdering my beloved daughter right in front of me! We're still pals and I'm totally supportive. I'll just choose to blame someone else who's got absolutely nothing to do with it."

And how weird is it that Dukat - just like the writers, apparently - seems to have completely forgotten by season 6 that he has 7 other children? Even though he used to talk about them in season 2, 3, 5... Now they just don't matter to him even to warrant a mention?

The only explanation of his behavior I can see is that he was insane at that point - but it is very lame when a TV show has to resort to "oh well, he is insane" as an excuse for making characters act in any absurd manner.

- the whole storyline was set up as being huge and incredibly important, with Dukat established as the main villain of the show again (according to the writers, that was what they were trying to do); but in the end, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Dominion war, nothing to do with Cardassia... and heck, it even didn't manage to do anything to Bajor, apart from killing Winn. And after all the build-up, it ended with a 2-minute first fight - what an anti-climax.

- the whole thing represented a shift from the intelligent treatment of religion and from the layered, complex storytelling and characterization that DS9 was known for, into a black-and-white supernatural tale of Good vs Evil, complete with demonic possessions and red-eyed maniacally laughing villains. Which I found really sad and disappointing. To quote Confused Matthew: "Come on! You are better than that!"

- The Pah-wraiths are never really explained - we don't get any insight into their motivations, they are nothing but boogey-men, or should that be boogey-beings. We're just supposed to think that they're eeeevil, so they'll naturally be allied with the eeeeevil Dukat. And I understand wanting to get back to the Celestial Temple, but WTF was that about "ending all life"? Why would they want that? Were the writers just wrecking their brains, trying to think of something that sounded eeevil enough?

The Pah-wraiths and Dukat in the end just served as a device to make the Prophets and Sisko look like a force of Good. But that just does not work, because...

- ... there is no reason to see the Prophets as Good; and it was OK as long as the show did not try to manipulate the viewers into feeling differently. But once they did, the Prophets just came off as arseholes who don't really care about the humanoids, but are ready to manipulate and use them for their ends. Did the writers ever realize just how creepy and disgusting what the Prophets did to Sarah and Joseph Sisko was?

- Maybe Ira Steven Behr should have just kept his mouth shut and pretended that he had always planned the Anti-Emissary plot, even though we know they just came up with stuff as they went along. But since he had to go on in public about how upset he was that Dukat was popular with the fanbase and how it was OMG oh so wrong! and OMG sending the wrong message! and OMG why did Marc Alaimo had to try to understand his character and play him as a multi-dimensional, realistic person rather than a caricature! and OMG why did he, Behr, allow Dukat to actually become an interesting and complex character! and OMG, we can't have people think that war criminals and despots are human and perhaps similar to the rest of us, can we! and OMG, that mistake had to be rectified!... I can hear very little in seasons 6 and 7 over the sound of Behr preaching and telling me what I am supposed to think.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Multitasking.

No. And I say this as a hotblooded young man who absolutely loves women.

All work and no play makes jack a dull boy.

Again, my point is that military dress change with age and location.

They haven't changed significantly in a century. And just as importantly it's being made for a modern audience.

Ok, you are right, but now you are adding a whole new layer to the issue. Are we talking in-universe (why does Starfleet allow miniskirt uniforms?) or out-universe (why did the production give the actresses miniskirt?) Because they are very different questions, with very different possible answers.

In modern times and the western world, I agree. But that's mostly due to the West's influence on the world at large, not any intrinsic absolute standard for formal dresses that lies beyond time and space.

Of course Earth seems to have a pretty heavy influence on the Federation, and there seems to still be a pretty heavy Western influence on Earth.

Your statement, while correct, lies on a very tenuous logic: just because the many aspect of Federation culture are similar to the modern Western world, it doesn't follow necessarily that all customs must be the same. Exceptions can't be ruled out.

No, the toga was not an uniform, but a civilian formal dress. But Roman legionary wore a short tunica under their armor, and no pants.

Again, ancient times, and even then they usually wore greaves to protect their shins

Again, future times.

And you are obviously forgetting about those protective go-go boots!

 

[Disillusioned]

All work and no play makes jack a dull boy.

There's a time for work and a time for play.

Ok, you are right, but now you are adding a whole new layer to the issue. Are we talking in-universe (why does Starfleet allow miniskirt uniforms?) or out-universe (why did the production give the actresses miniskirt?) Because they are very different questions, with very different possible answers.

I like to address both, since both are equally stupid the way I see it. It's really obvious why the actresses were given miniskirts or castsuits.

Your statement, while correct, lies on a very tenuous logic: just because the many aspect of Federation culture are similar to the modern Western world, it doesn't follow necessarily that all customs must be the same. Exceptions can't be ruled out.

Except when it comes to Starfleet.

And you are obviously forgetting about those protective go-go boots!

 

[Sector 7]

Okay, I'll say it. I don't hate the ENT theme song. I get what they were going for, and the lyrics are pretty fitting. It was a nice change from the boring and forgettable instrumentals. And even if it deserved the hateration, there are buttons on the remote (mute, fast forward) that nicely solved the problem. Giving up on a show because one doesn't like the opening credits or theme song (as many people claim they did) strikes me as quite the overreaction.

I couldn't think of anything to agree with on the thread, but I think you've hit one on the head there

I have always liked the ENT theme, too.