Spoilers Yeah... I give up - Star Trek has abandoned philosophical naturalism - it's depressing/juvenile

[Vger23]

I've come to realize that I love different things about Star Trek than most of the common fans love.

1. ("Depressing?") I like the darker, more serious tonality at times. I like TNG Conspiracy and Yesterday's Enterprise. I like TWOK. I like DS9's Dominion arc. I'm watching VOY right now, mostly for the first time, and while I don't find it objectionable, I also find nothing particularly engaging or dramatic about it. Its simply The Orville without gloryhole jokes. In fact, it's amazing (given that I'm watching both simultaneously,) and it's uncanny how much the two shows are alike. The Orville could easily be VOY season 8. Not to say either are bad...not at all...just nothing I'd be passionate about.

2. ("Juvenile?") I like the over-the-top comic book-like tone. The camp, if you will. I don't know how anyone can be a fan of TOS or TWOK, for example, and not adore the fun scenery chewing and bombastic style Trek offers at times. I think Trek got very self-conscious and conservative in the 90s and it was good, but not as fun. It's also one of the reasons I love S3 of TOS. Let's be ridiculous and hammy and have some balls-out fun sometimes.

For my tastes, DSC weirdly balances both these things perfectly. Others hate this and long for the more muted and conservative format. I don't begrudge anyone that opinion...but that's not for me.

I guess I'm saying that I like DSC for all the things other people hate it for.

 

[fireproof78]

As I age, I find different things I like. Nothing will replace TOS in terms of designs, characters or just overall sense of fun. DS9 and DISCO are definitely for the older me, the person who wants the complex characters, unresolved problems and season long arcs.

If I want fluff and fun, then I'll watching something else. DISCO hits that note for me.

 

[johnjm22]

Discovery is too juvenile and immature for me. I would prefer something more mature.

You can be mature and still have some camp/silliness. It just depends on how you go about it.

 

[fireproof78]

Discovery is too juvenile and immature for me. I would prefer something more mature.

You can be mature and still have some camp/silliness. It just depends on how you go about it.

But the rest of Star Trek is ok? O_o

Broadly, this is something I don't get. DISCO gets panned for doing things that other Star Trek's have done. Is it just the way that's done? It is the characters? Is it the novelty of the show? What is it about DISCO that makes it worth dismissing out of hand?

 

[Mudd]

The SO and I just watched a "juvenile" Disney feature from about a decade ago that was more stylish, professionally produced and written than Discovery. Had more fun with the whole space travel thing, too.

Space travel can be kind of awesome in the movies. No one on Discovery knows that.

 

[gamer1]

This all reminds me of those guys shouting how the new Star Wars movies ruined their childhood. Maybe it's time to accept something else then a crew, 1 member of the crew is the "alien outsider". Ridged forehead alien of the week, and some social (usually left leaning liberal) moral cookie of the week.If Star Trek didn't evolve it would really die. The new movies are horrible. Discovery *IS* Star Trek, even old Star Trek but it is a product that will actually garner interest in todays society.

Doesn't the old "formula" get old?

 

[johnjm22]

But the rest of Star Trek is ok? O_o

What do you mean?

I'm not saying there isn't immature stuff in other Trek. I'm just saying Discovery as a whole is very childish in the way it's written. There's a difference between being consciously cornball, and unintentionally cornball. Discovery is the latter.

 

[fireproof78]

What do you mean?

I'm not saying there isn't immature stuff in other Trek. I'm just saying Discovery as a whole is very childish in the way it's written. There's a difference between being consciously cornball, and unintentionally cornball. Discovery is the latter.

That Star Trek has done it before, consciously and unconsciously. I'm glad people are posting TNG quotes because I feel like Abrams Trek and DISCO get taken to task for things that are taken for granted in other Treks.

 

[Mudd]

Doesn't the old "formula" get old?

Sure.

That's not a valid defense of Discovery. "That stuff you like isn't so good" doesn't make this show good. It's not.

 

[fireproof78]

Sure.

That's not a valid defense of Discovery. "That stuff you like isn't so good" doesn't make this show good. It's not.

Doesn't make it bad either. It sits just as well with my other Trek.

 

[gamer1]

Sure.

That's not a valid defense of Discovery. "That stuff you like isn't so good" doesn't make this show good. It's not.

It's a very valid defense. Discovery is Star Trek for the masses of 2018, whereas old Star Trek (which I never said was bad) simply won't work today. I love old Star Trek but comparing it to Discovery makes it cringe worthy.

 

[Mudd]

It's a very valid defense.

It's not.

Discovery is Star Trek for the masses of 2018...

The masses don't care and don't watch it. Trekkies do.

 

[Vger23]

Sure.

That's not a valid defense of Discovery. "That stuff you like isn't so good" doesn't make this show good. It's not.

No, you don't like it. That doesn't mean it isn't good. It simply means it's not aligned with your tastes and likings. Those are two very different things.

You might actually have more productive and meaningful exchanges on this board if you could humble yourself enough to learn the difference.

 

[rahullak]

If what's in their heads is always going to be different from what's in yours, then how can you enjoy any show?

I meant it's not going to be exactly similar to what I expect or want. Sometimes it's easier to find things to enjoy and sometimes it's harder. If I wanted a show or a movie that I always enjoy to the fullest extent without any quibbles whatsoever, well then, I'd have to make my own show or movie. Which then others would find easier or harder to enjoy depending on what's in their heads.

 

[Donker]

simply won't work today.

Why does Black Mirror work then?

The fact is, old style Star Trek can work perfectly fine today, just CBS want the "walking dead" audience.
I've always hated this idea that actual good sci-fi won't be popular, when films like The Martian or Arrival or Prometheus grossed more than the Kelvin films or shows like Black Mirror are vastly more popular than Discovery.

As I will always say, if they don't want to make Star Trek. Why have they made a Star Trek TV series instead of just some original IP and if they don't want to follow continuity or the setting at all, why set it in the Prime verse? Hell why set it in a era already seen on screen?

Discovery is a cynical cashgrab that is why. It's only called Star Trek because CBS will know people know the name. The reason it's set in the TOS era is so they can namedrop Spock and Kirk.

IMHO once they fired Fuller and realized whatever high-concept crap he wanted to do wasn't going to work, they should have basically set their aims much smaller. Essentially just sit the writing team down, have them figure out the central conflict in each of the characters, and what sort of scenarios let us explore this conflict.

Today also confirmed my suspect feeling that Fuller is one the reasons why Discovery doesn't really work. He apparently wanted to plop them in the Mirror Universe sooner than later. Another terrible Fuller idea.
Honestly when I learned Fuller was behind that lame grimdark "The Federation has stagnated and collapsed" pitch years back, I knew he wasn't going to be a good fit for Trek.

 

[Pauln6]

Seriously? Kirk reaching for his full potential isn't keeping within the human journey and evolutionary optimism in TOS?

The first movie was too self indulgent. It's message was accidentally about the cult of celebrity. Kirk is charismatic and cool and that success is more important than the decisions taken to get there. Liberal common sense were the enemies of success and that is the opposite of Star Trek. Setting it side by side with the Doomsday Machine NuKirk makes very similar decisions to Decker.

Discovery is pushing the envelope on Trek philosophy by placing its characters on the fringes. It's clever, even if I don't always 100% agree with the implementation. Trek09 and Into Darkness were not clever.

 

[Refuge]

But the rest of Star Trek is ok? O_o

Broadly, this is something I don't get. DISCO gets panned for doing things that other Star Trek's have done. Is it just the way that's done? It is the characters? Is it the novelty of the show? What is it about DISCO that makes it worth dismissing out of hand?

Yes the rest of Star Trek is okay.

 

[Butters]

This thread still open?

While I sip my Sunday morning organic coffee I thought I’d lookup the definitions of juvenile and depressing. They still mean what I through they meant, and the Atlantic language gap doesn’t make any difference, so I’m puzzelled as to how they can apply to Discovery.

The show isn’t made for children, nor does seem to be made by children. I may have missed the cock and fart jokes though. Do we all shout ‘he’s behind you!’ when Voq appears?

Depressing? Maybe more subjective, but it’s action drama, so it needs an element of peril. Hollyoaks is depressing, it’s full of teenagers upsetting each other, has angsty moody pop music, and every episode ends with one of the characters sobbing in a corner. This ain’t that.

I’ll confess to not loving Discovery as much as I did TNG, but that’s probably because I’m thirty years older and I like different things now, but this is as much a Trek as any.

I’ll concede Discovery is Juvenile when they have their Naked Time/Now moment. And I will be depressed if they hire a writer that doesn’t get evolution and spews out crap like Threshold or Genesis, and god forbid we ever the likes of Rascsals again.

It’s an alright show, and considering the baggage of its legacy, it’s doing a good job of being fresh, inventive, and entertaining.

Where it does suffer is being designed for, and delivered with, box set shows which compel binge watching, but that’s not possible because of the weekly wait.

Still enjoying it though.

 

[Refuge]

I'm not puzzled how someone could find Discovery is depressing and juvenile. It's dark and in the first few episodes we saw Georgiou killed, Michael stripped of rank, Landry killed, and then we found out the captain of Discovery was a war monger with some hidden agenda. Not exactly a laugh a minute. The mirror universe is not a hopeful world either. Tyler's story is a misery. Culber is dead. Michael ate some alien akin to Saru. Lorca in an agony machine and the silly antics of Emperor Georgiou and dingbat Captain Tilly.

A dark joke right??

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I'm not puzzled how someone could find Discovery is depressing and juvenile. It's dark and in the first few episodes we saw Georgiou killed, Michael stripped of rank, Landry killed, and then we found out the captain of Discovery was a war monger with some hidden agenda. Not exactly a laugh a minute. The mirror universe is not a hopeful world either. Tyler's story is a misery. Culber is dead. Michael ate some alien akin to Saru. Lorca in an agony machine and the silly antics of Emperor Georgiou and dingbat Captain Tilly.

A dark joke right??

I don't really see the issue with any of those things. Compared to most modern dramas Discovery is sunshine and rainbows. Thankfully we no longer have to deal with the pedestrian plots of Voyager which involved everything being resolved in 45 minutes only to be forgotten the next week.

I assume you have watched episodes involving the mirror universe before right? They were filled with people being enslaved, and characters killing people that they were friends with in the prime universe. It wasn't exactly a positive place when depicted in TOS or DS9.