Wouldn't recent events lead to full war between Fed and Romulan Free State?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Yistaan, Mar 29, 2020.

  1. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    @Sci There must be some continuity between the Romulan Star Empire and the Free Romulan State, otherwise the Treaty of Algeron would be irrelevant, yet it was brought into play in the most recent episode.
     
  2. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Romulans have a lot to answer for. They are responsible for the events that led to the synth ban, and murdered quite a lot of Federation citizens. I can't imagine the Federation not answering it.
     
  3. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Picard Season 2, The Search for More Money!

    Well just like all the treaty's we had with the old Soviet Russia, are still in effect with the Russian Federation as it successor state. with the Romulan Free State is probably the successor state that is made up from the main part of the empire, so all treaty's unless the Romulan Free state stated they are null and void, are still in effect.
     
  4. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    I don’t think there would be a war between the Federation and the Romulans. Since its Zhat Vash forces using Zhat Vash Warbirds. Not all Romulans are Zhat Vash, and Zhat Vash has infiltrated many powers, including the Federation, the Klingon Empire and the Gorn Hegemony.

    Federation vs Zhat Vash is more likely once the conspiracy is out on the open, especially with the synth ban now lifted in the Federation.
     
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  5. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ... Being rogue means the exact opposite. It means you are under nobody's control. Otherwise you wouldn't be "rogue," you'd just be a normal agency.

    1) No. When Sloan is trying to justify Section 31 in "Inquisition," he specifically claims that they're part of "the original Starfleet Charter." Which strongly implies that they're not part of the current Starfleet Charter.

    2) When Section 31 appears in ENT, they cite "Article 14, Section 31" of the United Earth Starfleet Charter. The exact line is: "There are a few lines that make allowances for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat." Nothing about that establishes an independent agency of the United Earth Starfleet or grants them carte blanche to do whatever they want or immunity from any laws. That's why no one ever links it to the actual group -- because the UESF Charter does not actually authorize the group's existence.

    Which Romulans? The writers' intent is that there are multiple post-Supernova Romulan states, of which the Romulan Free State is merely the largest. You gonna go to war with every Romulan polity?

    And what, exactly, is the end game? You gonna invade and occupy Romulan space indefinitely? Turn the Federation into an imperial power?

    What, specifically, is the concrete objective?

    Yeah, it's pretty common for the largest states to emerge from a collapsed regime to inherit the previous state's treaty obligations, without that necessarily meaning the successor state is held responsible for everything the progenitor state did. This is especially the case when the successor state is a more liberal regime than the progenitor regime -- and given their willingness to invite Federation scientists onto the Artifact instead of just seizing the cube for their own exclusive use, I'd say the Free State seems more liberal than the Star Empire.

    Interesting side-note: The Treaty of Algeron was originally between United Earth and the Romulan Star Empire, because the Federation did not yet exist when the Earth-Romulus War ended -- which means that both of the current parties to the treaty, the United Federation of Planets and the Romulan Free State, are successor states to the original signatories!
     
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  6. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Arguably The Best Poster Named cooleddie Moderator

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    Actually the Treaty of Algeron was signed in 2311. It wasn't the document that ended the Earth-Romulan War in 2160 as that was a war that was terminated by subspace radio agreement without a formal document being signed.

    The Federation was indeed a party to the Treaty of Algeron.
     
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  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh and the Zhat Vash have a lot to answer for. Not all the Romulans, unless it can be determined the Romulan Free State or its leadership was complicit in someway with the attack on Mars. Not sure how that would be done though?
     
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  8. Gonzo

    Gonzo Guest

    At this point in time there is no evidence that the Romulan Free State government or military are involved in the attack on Mars.

    However it is clear that the Tal'Shiar are heavily involved simply due to the number of ships seen in episode 10, what we don't know is how many of them were aware of the real reasons for being there as they could just have been following the orders given by their superior officer General Nedar (Commodore Oh).

    If it turns out that the Tal'Shiar were themselves infiltrated by Zhat Vash operatives they are going to look either very foolish or complicit in what happened.

    We must also remember that Zhaban still considered the Zhat Vash to be a myth and the only reason Laris brought it up was the lack of viable alternatives, which would indicate that at least some of the Tal'Shiar are not complicit.

    It would have been very interesting to see Laris and Zhabans reaction to all of those ships turning up to wipe out the Nest, that is probably why they were not there at all as it will be kept for S2.
     
  9. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well.. I doubt the feds will go after romulans in general.. They already lost probably billions of lives to the supernova on romulas, and the neighboring systems in the 14 ly radius so far..
     
  10. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If word gets out in the RFS - or any other factions of the Romulan government - that Nedar masterminded the attack on Mars (I can't remember, do any of the surviving main PIC characters know? Picard, etc.) I'm starting to suspect that she will face harsher penalties from her own people than she ever would in the Federation.

    Whether it be the military in general, or the Tal Shiar, that gets ahold of her...she's going to wish she'd been extradited.
     
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  11. Gonzo

    Gonzo Guest

    She is half Vulcan so she could ask for political asylum in exchange for information.

    Lots of different ways it could go.
     
  12. Tarek71

    Tarek71 Commodore Commodore

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    No, it was established that they are part of the Fed government, just like their Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar counterparts. They might be black box and off the books, but that does not imply that they are not part of the State. And keeping files on, and undertaking surveillance of, Govt members would not imply that they are not part of that Govt.
     
  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ If Section 31 is part of the Federation government, they would answer to it, up to and including the President. DS9 makes it clear that they do not. They literally do whatever they want. Hell, they even had a SPY in the President's Cabinet!
     
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  14. Yistaan

    Yistaan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This makes me think now that maybe the Romulan Free State pretended to offer her haven from Riker's Starfleet squadron because they felt Federation justice would be far too lenient on her. Oh may be in for a surprise once she enters Romulan space...
     
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  15. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's not what was said at all. Odo compares Section 31 as being similar to the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order, but that does not make them a counterpart to those organizations. Indeed, the very fact that Section 31 is secret should make that obvious, given both the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order were well know to their general public.
     
  16. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Bluntly, I think that it's very heavily implied that they're not a terrorist organization at all but just a black ops organization of Starfleet that they deny exists. It's like people have difficulty pretending "we will disavow you if we discover you" is a thing in the 24th century.

    MISSION IMPOSSIBLE.

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Transcript from DS9: "Inquisition":

    Transcript from "Extreme Measures:"

    This is more than "off the books." This is a rogue organization that does not answer to the democratically-elected government. It is not a government agency, it is a government conspiracy.

    No. No no no. Intelligence agencies do not have the authority to spy on the head of state and head of government. Doing is is precisely the definition of a rogue agency. A legitimate intelligence agency is accountable to and must take orders from the head of government; spying on the head of government is inherently an abuse of power.

    Spying on the head of government while not reporting to him and not taking orders from him? That's some Hydra-infiltrating-SHIELD bullshit. That's not a legitimate agency.

    Y e p.
     
  18. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think Discovery has retconned it to being a real agency. Just one that is kept under wraps.
     
  19. Tarek71

    Tarek71 Commodore Commodore

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    Those quotes make it clear that it is part of the Government. "Autonomous Department" authorized by the Federation Charter is not an outside organization. That is as silly as saying the KKK is an "autonomous department" of the US Govt. There are 100,000s of organizations in the US that are not part of the government. Racial nationalists, Greens, Libertarians, Islamic fundamentalists, drug gangs, mafias, Patriot militias, etc. Those are outside organizations. They are not "autonomous departments" of the US Govt.

    It might be an abuse of power, but abuses of power are not evidence of being an outside organization, in the sense that the Gambino Family is an outside organization. Govt organizations can and do abuse power. That's why we need whistleblowers. Don't confuse legality and legitimacy with whether it is state sponsored. States undertake illegal, immoral and illegitimate activities.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
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  20. Tarek71

    Tarek71 Commodore Commodore

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    That is exactly what was said. You are adding that you think they are different from Sect 31 in the latter being allegedly secret. Not sure why that makes them not a counterpart organization. Similar to, but not a counterpart of? Not sure that hair is worth splitting. IDK what the average Cardassian knows about the Obsidian Order. If they are publicly known, it might be useful for the State to use that to intimidate the population. Big Brother is watching. Whereas the Fed Govt and Sect 31 dont go that route.