Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Reyman, Feb 3, 2020.
No. I don't have any faith that the folks in charge of Trek today could improve on the original.
I'd watch a version of Voyager that had no Ocampans. I found Kes to be godawful boring, not to mention the romantic aspect of her relationship with Neelix a bit creepy, given that she was so young even by Ocampan standards.
There are a lot of fanfic stories that serve this purpose, and it's interesting to see the variety of takes people have about the crew of Voyager, returning after the longest 3-week mission in recent Starfleet history. Just seeing them trying to readjust to being on Earth (or their respective Federation homeworlds), trying to cope with the more formal ways of a different ship (just imagine Harry calling his superior officers by their first names on any other starship), even just readjusting to their own families - and possibly discovering that the memories were better than the reality - could take a season in itself.
I've lost count of how many remakes there are of The Parent Trap and Freaky Friday. I guess it's not out of the question to update these movies once, since modern kids would wonder WTF those clunky phones are that Hayley Mills uses in The Parent Trap, and they wouldn't even get the humor in the typewriter scene in Freaky Friday (Annabell's mother's mind in her daughter's body, attempting to get through a normal day of school, trying to cope with a typing test and having no idea how electric typewriters work).
But it seems that every few years, there's yet another version of these movies, and I have no idea why they're considered necessary.
That said, I won't argue that sometimes the newer version is better. For instance, I can't imagine anyone doing Henry V better than Kenneth Branagh.
In that case, why not just make an entirely original show?
I repeat: Why not just make an entirely new show? If you're not going to bother being consistent in any way with the source material, it's just a cynical marketing ploy to call it Voyager.
I want to know WTF happened to the Borg baby. Fanfic has provided several possibilities, but I'd like the show (any variety of it) bother to remember that they brought a guest character aboard the ship, and then forgot about her before the end of the episode.
Every generation deserves their own good iconic version of popular characters. What did we do to deserve Leonardo DiCaprio in The Man in the Iron Mask? The earliest version of that I saw was with Richard Chamberlain as King Louis/Philippe, and it was depicted as a serious historical drama. The DiCaprio version was a mess that couldn't decide if it wanted to be historical drama or a parody of historical drama. The only characters worth watching in that version are the Musketeers; the main character certainly isn't.
Kes would still be boring. About the only thing those characters would have in common would be short childhoods.
If you want to use the same actress who played adult Miral in "Endgame", she's currently playing Olivia Quartermaine on General Hospital.
Sounds like a candidate for the ending of the novel Federation.
Fun fact: The actress who played Varinia in Spartacus later had a guest part on TNG.
Fanfic has provided, with some of the Voyager crew going along because they're either searching for what/who was left behind in the Delta Quadrant (ie. Seven searching for Axum, or looking in on the Borg kids to see how they're doing), or Harry realizing that home isn't really where he wants to be and for him life really is about the journey.
But Voyager is a kind of Gilligan's Island. The similarity is that even though the island can move, they still can't get home.
By your own admission, you've never seen most of it.
I read the Logan's Run novel years before I was able to see the movie (I was 13 when I read the book - years too young to be allowed to watch the movie in a theatre). There are two sequels, btw: Logan's World, and Logan's Search.
The novel differs in some significant ways from the movie.
The reason for Lastday was population control, not nuclear war, and Deep Sleep happened on the 21st birthday, not the 30th. Carousel isn't in the novel. People lived in numerous cities around the world, all connected by the mazecar system, and "gypsies" were bands of people who refused to live in the cities. In the novel Jessica is already on Lastday when she and Logan meet, and so is he - there's no undercover assignment to find Sanctuary; he just wants to survive.
I missed them when they were first on. The sci-fi channel in Canada runs them on weekdays (4 am in my time zone), so I've been watching them. I have no clue which episodes belong to which series, and I know I'm not watching them in the right order. But it's something to watch that I haven't seen before.
I addressed this point in my entry in the current Voyager caption contest.
Exactly. If you compare Mel Gibson's Hamlet with Kenneth Branagh's Hamlet, the Gibson version is superior. It's period-appropriate, and Gibson did a much better job of playing Hamlet. Branagh's version is an anachronistic mess that I couldn't stand long enough to even finish watching it.
The British version didn't have the genius of John Ritter, and I am reasonably sure that Lucille Ball never appeared in the British version.
Less reliance on the holodeck, sure. But eliminate it entirely? No. There are only so many games of Kadis-kot or kal-toh the crew can play before they go insane from boredom. The holodeck is necessary to their mental health, as well as a safe environment for simulating complicated things they need to practice (ie. Seven's surgery in the episode where Icheb donates his cortical node to her).
What they should have done from about the second episode is have Janeway realize that Voyager needed to be retrofitted to accommodate families and children. The idea she seems to have had, that she and Chakotay would still be fit to command the ship after 7 decades was ludicrous. Kids should have been on the "to do" list for long-term planning from the get-go, and fraternization rules should have been modified.
For that, you'd need the original actress who was supposed to play Janeway. She had the charisma of a piece of cardboard.
Star Trek Continues did that, and most of the episodes are so good that it's almost like watching the real thing.
Neelix was one of the characters who had a story arc that lasted all seven seasons. He started out as a mercenary conman whose first interest was always what he wanted, and he wasn't averse to bailing if he screwed up.
But Janeway refused to allow that, and over the years, Neelix gradually became a more serious character who learned new skills and had a better awareness of his own worth and what he really wanted out of life. He learned to be selfless, and I was sorry to see him leave.
Except they did.
Paris is another character who grew throughout the seven seasons. He was a different person at the end than he was at the beginning.
Maybe a couple of seasons, but four would be too long. I'm not suggesting everyone would become a 'happy starship family' but there needed to be a better balance between the conflicting sides of the crew.
In what episode was that established?
Could be good.
I have no problem with reboots so I will not reject it out of hand.
Kes was never boring. She's a great character with lot of potential which unfortunately wasn't really used due to bad writers.
No, but I've seen the best of it and don't want those memories ruined.
Paris was much better in the first three seasons. In the later seasons he became just one of the moving objects in the background who was shoved aside to make room for the new star of the show.
I will admit the writers were clueless about how to effectively write a character like her.
That said, the writing isn't the only problem. There are some actors who can transcend bad writing. A prime example is Paul McGann in the 1996 Doctor Who movie - horrible writing and hammy overacting by Eric Roberts - but McGann himself was a wonderful Doctor and if he'd been given a chance at a series, he would have really done it justice.
The actress playing Kes was unable to make me care about her. The writers were unable to make me care about her. One of the problems is simply that Kes wasn't given any flaws. She was presented as innocent and perfect and gaining ever more superpowers but aside from roasting Tuvok, she never seems to have made any mistakes that mattered, and any she made were always forgiven without even one word of criticism.
That makes for a boring character.
You can't claim to have seen the best if you don't know what the rest of it even is.
There's a marked inconsistency in your claims that you have never seen seasons 4-7, yet you also claim that Paris was worse in the final seasons than he was in the first seasons.
It's baloney, by the way. Paris had a 7-season character arc in which he started out as a cynical, bitter, unsociable conman and gradually changed into a more optimistic, less cynical, more sociable and responsible officer who fell in love, married, and became a father.
People ask me why I read the nuDune books when I hate them so much. The answer is partly this: At least when I criticize them, I know what I'm talking about.
You might consider the same with your criticism of seasons 4-7. That way you would actually know what you're talking about.
Paris is one of the high points of the series.
Also, I'll always struggle to understand how watching/reading bad installments impacts a favorable memory of a show.
In fact, I did watch all episodes up to one particular episode at the end of season 6 which disgusted me so much that I totally lost the interest for the whole series. But I did actually watch most of "the rest" without being that impressed.
The writers weren't clueless how to write about Kes. They did actually come up with good episodes until they were ordered to not being able to write for the character anymore. Up to this day, I'm amazed how thjey all of a sudden lost all ability to write for the character, just like if Carlos Santana all of a sudden had lost his ablility to play guitar. It must have been some sort of disease among the writers. Poor them!
But bad writing did affect all Voyager characters. Compared that to DS9 where the writers did a terrific job with all the characters. Even Jake Sisko who started as the most boring Star Trek character ever did actually have some really good episodes.
If you don't like characters with superpowers who are flawless, then you really must hate Seven Of Nine because she was written just that way. She could fix anything with her Borg knowledge, from the warp core to Janeway's malfunctioning hairdryer and she always saved the day for the crew.
As for Paris, he was much more interesting in the first three seasons than he was in the later seasons. he became just a background character and I guess that the writers came up with that "Married With Children" concept just to show the viewers that he was still on board. In fact, O'Brien's family life on DS9 was more interesting and developing than Paris's short stunts in the later episodes.
So you still haven't seen the entire series and your claims are still inconsistent.
You're claiming the writers were ordered not to write for Kes? Evidence, please.
I never claimed there was no bad writing for all the characters. "Threshold" wasn't the only one that wouldn't even meet the standards for bad fanfiction.
That said, there's a lot of fanfiction out there that explores the results of abandoning those baby lizard children on the planet. The Voyager crew doesn't come out on the positive end of those stories.
I'll grant you that the "everything can be fixed with Borg nanoprobes/algorithms" got overused.
However, Seven received comeuppance and consequences on numerous occasions. Janeway didn't let her skate when she truly screwed up. The same cannot be said for Kes.
Keiko was a whiny shrew most of the time, no matter which show she was on.
As for Paris, you yourself have stated that you haven't seen the entire series. Therefore, you have no basis on which to base any claims about Tom Paris' late-seasons character.
All of a sudden, they lost ability to write for the character. They did state that. "Oh, we can't come up with stories for the character". That was a lie considering the fact that they managed to come up with good Kes stories up to the end of season 3. One of those prominent writers even came up with a good story about Kes after she'd been booted out in season 4, but that was in a book.
Honmestly, "Threshold" was better than many of the season 4-7 episodes. "Threshold" was at least funny. Some later episodes, especially one in season 6 were definitely not funny.
As for fan fiction, there are a lot of good stories out there, especially my own.
"Overused" is an understatement here. The only thing she couldn't fix was to get them home. But in that case, the series would have been over in season 4. Janeway let Seven get away with a lot of bad behavior. Even Seska had more Starfleet discipline.
Keiko was a bit whiny sometimes. But she wasn't a main character and we didn't have to stand her being whiny in each and every episode.
I didn't watch the last three episodes of season 6 and season 7, except "Endgame" which was horrible. I have a feeling that Paris continued on the road to boredom in season 7 so I don't think I missed anything.
I am amazed to read this. Threshold is not even in the "it's so bad it's good" category for me. It simply is nonsensical and is completely ignored for the rest of the show, consequences of introducing a brand new species to a planet be damned.
I love how having a relationship and becoming more of a family person makes someone boring.
A slight detor, but is a 'Voyager" story kind of..
If there is a Pike series, have an episode where a ship, that was presummed lost, makes it way back to Fed space after say.. 10 years? 15? and the episode, or multipule episode deal with the crew re integrating, and there stories.. Have the Enterprise tow the lost vessel, and have the crew on the enterprise interacting.. and use a Flashback system to show what happened, and maybe after a few months, have one of the crew come back to the enterprise.. just and idea..
I liked Kes at first, and she had a lovely voice.. shame what has happened in her life afterwards.. but hey.. not everybody can have camelot.
Having a relationship and becoming more of a family person don't make anyone boring. I never considered Al Bundy boring.
No honestly, I just found Paris more entertaining and funny in the early episodes. He more and less disssapeared in the later seasons together with Tuvok, Chakotay, Neelix and Kim.
As for "Threshold", if you try to see the events in the episode as not real but a nightmare Tom Paris had after eating too much of Neelix's food, then it's actually funny here and there. The whole episode could have been saved by showing up Paris waking up in bed after a bad dream.
I'll take your word for it.
You still haven't provided any evidence. Links, please.
"Threshold" was stomach-turning shit. Even the showrunners prefer to forget it ever happened.
Where can I read your stories so I can judge for myself?
Seven was confined to the cargo bay (the equivalent of being confined to quarters), her holodeck privileges were revoked, she was ordered to complete tasks she found pointless and distasteful, and she was the only character hated enough that Chakotay tried to kill her.
As for Seska, she was an undercover Cardassian spy, pretending to be a Bajoran. Cardassian society is more hierarchical and controlled than Federation society, so Seska would have found it easier to follow Starfleet rules than Seven - since Seven was assimilated as a young child and had never gone to any sort of school, let alone Starfleet Academy.
We had to stand her being whiny in every episode she was in, though.
As I said, you haven't seen it so you have no basis on which to make any statements of fact.
There were numerous episodes in seasons 6 and 7 when Paris played an important part, and they ranged from him being a practical joker in the Fairhaven episodes (I seem to be the only one who actually enjoys those) to becoming better versed in medical knowledge and putting it to practical use in later episodes.
There were episodes that focused on his relationship with B'Elanna and the issues surrounding being married to a half-Klingon and dealing with B'Elanna's own problems (there's an episode about the ethics of genetic alteration for personal preference in the episode where B'Elanna finds out she's pregnant.
He's anything but bored.
If your issue is that you just don't like B'Elanna, say so. Paris the single man has more story opportunities than Paris the married man, so maybe that's your problem, and not Paris himself.
Again, you should watch the episodes so you'll know what you're talking about. It's one thing to say, "I didn't watch them because I lost interest" and another thing to say, "I didn't watch them and I know they were horrible."
It's an idea that should have been done for Voyager.
It's an ensemble show. They had to take turns being in the spotlight. Even in the episodes when they weren't in the spotlight, they were still noticeably present.
You just have to look for the official statements from those in charge about Jennifer Lien's departure.
There's an episode in season 6 which really deserves to be forgotten and erased. That episode is much, much worse than "Threshold".
On the Kes Website! (link at the bottom of the post).
But Seven was a Borg, a potential enemy and they let her run loose on the ship.
But we had sto stand Seven's cranky attitude in every episode in seasons 4-7
B'Elanna is one of my favorite characters! I don't dislike her at all. She's terrific!
And as I wrote before, it had nothing to do with Paris getting married or having a child. It was just that he wasn't that funny anymore as he had been in seasons 1-3.
But I must admit that when series starts to focus on the characters domestic problems instead of coming up with exciting adventures, then the writers have lost inspiration. It has happened in some of my favorite series during the years.
As for "Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folks", well I hardly remember them nor because I found thenm rather boring. However, they weren't insulting as another season 6 episode was.
Unfortunately, it will take a while until and if I will watch any season 7 episodes. I bought season 4 (which I've watched once) on DVD last year but I've only rewatched half of it. It will take time before I reach season 7.
It was an ensemble show in seasons 1-3, then it became The Seven Of Nine Show with The Doctor and Janeway as co-starring and the others as moving images in the background.
It's like that in every series.. You have a 7 person main cast, but say 3 are the main characters. Most shows woukd revolve around the 3 with occasional episode for the B team.
Notable b squad of Troi and crusher, slightly riker, ... Sulu uhura, checkov, Scotty sometimes.
Whole plethora ..
Now coukd it be seven and Kim one episide, then doctor and belana .. Yep.
Best to have a b story with the B squad on episodes.. Develop there characters. But often writers just don't know what to do.. He'll we barely knew the bridge crew names on disco till S2!
Nope. You made the claim, so it's up to you to provide the links. Since I never liked Kes or Jennifer Lien, I couldn't care less why she left. I'm just glad she did.
Yes, the one where Kes came back and threw a gigantic temper tantrum. It was pointless and not one I bother rewatching. But it didn't make me nearly throw up my supper when I saw it.
I'll check them out. But please understand that I'm partial to Seven-centric Voyager stories, stories about the Borg kids, and stories about Paris.
They trusted her at first, and when she betrayed them, they put her on a metaphorical leash until she had proved her loyalty.
You see cranky, I see the frustration of someone trying to fit into an environment that was confusing and contradicted nearly everything she had been taught. Seven might have been physically in her 20s, but emotionally, she was still very young.
Voyager is intended to be drama, not comedy.
You might enjoy the fanfic stories written by Alpha Flyer. They're post-Endgame, and Tom Paris gets his own ship. The focus is on adventure.
Now you know how frustrated I was when Worf took over not only TNG, but DS9. I was afraid they'd find a way to slip him into Voyager as well, and thank goodness they didn't.
But you're exaggerating the issue. As I said, there were Paris-centric episodes, and episodes where other characters were prominent or at least played a significant part. You'd know that if you would watch them.
It made me wanna throw my TV out of the window. Pure greed (TV:s are expensive) and concern of the people on the street below prevented me from doing that.
Note that I was warned by some friends in the US who had watched the episodes a couple of months before I had the opportunity to watch it but it still came as a shock for me.
In that case I don't think that you will appreciate the stories since there are very little Seven and no Borg kids in them. But some Paris.
Maybe. But I prefer Paris and the others when they are on Voyager. Don't want to split up the old gang.
I have nothing against Worf. But he was better in TNG than DS9.
Some of the old gang is still with him. Janeway isn't though; she gets promoted to the Admiralty, though the admiral Paris ends up interacting with more is Nechayev.
Separate names with a comma.