Would Voyager have been better if it had more character development?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by The Overlord, Jan 2, 2019.

  1. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    TNG?
     
  2. Abi Smith

    Abi Smith Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I much prefer Season 7 Picard to Season 1 Picard.
    And Riker's Beard.
     
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  3. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    I don't think there's much of a difference. I will admit that Riker's beard was fantastic.
     
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  4. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not against character development necessarily but some writers see development primarily in terms of conflict and depicting character conflict can easily fall flat.
     
  5. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It looks like you and I actually agree on a lot of things.

    The difference is that you mostly blame Beltran/Chakotay and Kim/Wang for the shortcomings of the series while I blame the writers and producers.

    First of all I must state that even if I do like Beltran and support him in some of the cases, I don't agree on all of his ideas.

    I never liked the Chakotay/Seven relationship because it insulted a lot of fans who would have liked to see a Chakotay/Janeway relationship instead. Even if the writers didn't want to have that in the series, they could at least have let it hang in the air so that the fans at least could have had something to imagine instead of slapping them in the face with the Chakotay/Seven thing. Not to mention that there were no chemistry between Chakotay and Seven and the whole relationship came right out of the air without any hints or so in revious episodes (at least what I know, I only watched "Endgame in season 7). If Beltran wanted to annoy Braga, then he could have done it another way.

    "Thirty Days" was downright horrible because it made Janeway look like a complete idiot. Putting Paris in the brig for a minor offense when she let Torres get away after nearly killing Lt. Carey ("Parallax) and letting Chakotay get away for disobeying orders, chasing Seska and be caputed (Maneuvers) was totally out of order. If I had been a writer, then I would never have come up with something as substandard as "Thirty Days" even if Beltran or anyone else had pointed a gun at my head and if I had been a producer, the script for "Thirty Days" would have ended up in a trashcan or at least being heavily rewritten.

    However, there were other episodes in season 4-6 as well which made Janeway look like a moron, not only this one even if it was one of the worst. Therefore I prefer seasons 1-3 Janeway when she acted more responsible and actually cared for each member of the crew.

    "The Fight" was only silly.

    However, I get the impression that Beltran also wanted more action for Chakotay and in that I support him. I would have loved to see more episodes like "Maneuvers" and "Nemesis" where Chakotay had some action and adventure.

    The same for Wang since the character Kim did have some premise. But calling Berman a racist because he refused Wang to produce was out of line and unfair and I must agree in what you write about Berman's contributions to TNG and DS9 and give him credit for that. The only downright insulting things Berman can be accused for when it comes to Voyager is the rude treatment of Jennifer Lien and the character Kes.

    Still, Berman, Braga and also people like Jeri Taylor, Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor did mess up Voyager. They made a lot of downright stupid decisions and came up with too many lame ideas which almost ruined what could have become a great Star Trek series and by doing so, they were making a lot of actors and loyal fans dissapointed.
     
  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, personally I'm happy that they didn't let Beltran quit because that would have meant that Chakotay, my second favorite after Kes would have been killed off and that wouldn't only have been a waste of one of Star trek's best characters but it would also have p***ed me off almost as much as the attempts to destroy Kes in season 4 and 6.
     
  7. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    Can't find the source now, but I read that Kate Mulgrew said early on that she didn't want a long term romantic interest. I'm really glad they didn't do one. It really makes no sense for Chakotay and Janeway to hook up outside the 'shes a woman, he's a man' reasoning.
     
  8. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It was a good decision not to have a relationship during the series and Voyager's journey through the Delta Quadrant.
    But why not a "happy ending" at the end of the last episode?
     
  9. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    With a relationship at the end??
     
  10. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, why not?
    Because the series was over and the crew safely home.
    It would have pleased a lot of fans who instead were p***ed off when they got the Chakotay/Seven relationship thrown in their faces.
     
  11. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    The idea that coupling up is needed for a happy ending is so trite and inauthentic. Shipping is the lowest point of fandom - an easy way to please fans, but rarely good storytelling.

    Again, there's no reason for Chakotay and Janeway to hook up. They just seemed like good friends. Star Trek also has a very bad record for assuming that every female character needs a long-term love interest:
    • Troi? You're gonna be into Riker.
    • Crusher? You're gonna be into Picard.
    • Jadzia? You're gonna be into Worf.
    • Ezri? You're gonna be into Bashir.
    • Kira? You're gonna be into Odo.
    • Kes? You're gonna be into Neelix.
    • Torres? You're gonna be into Paris.
    There's this persistent idea that if you're gonna be a woman on Star Trek, you're gonna need to be a romantic interest for another main character. Even Seven got this treatment. Given how proud they were of having a female captain, it would have been a little self-defeating to suggest that she needed to end up with a partner to have a happy ending.
     
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  12. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I actually agree with many of your points here, especially your criticizm about every female character needs a long-time love interest. I've never found that necessary.

    In some cases wher there have been a certain chemistry between certain characters, I can actually accept and even like such a relationship but in some cases there have been no chemistry at all.

    My support for the Chakotay/Janeway relationship is based on the fact that there actually was a certain chemistry between them and also that a lot of fans wanted that.

    However, if the writers or the actors involved didn't want it, then it would have been better if they had just let the whole thing remain unresolved when the series ended than coming up with that Chakotay/Seven thing which actually annoyed many fans.
     
  13. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

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    That notion is much more general than just Trek (though it might be worse on Trek than on many other shows, can't really say).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test

    (yes, I posted this same link in another thread only 2 weeks ago, but thought it was relevant to repeat it here).
     
  14. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well Janeway had turned down Chakotay so often and from that and otherwise Chakotay had come to think of her as just a friend and colleague that it makes sense that he wouldn't in the final episode, once home, quickly turn to starting a relationship with her even though now she wouldn't be his superior officer so it would be possible.
     
  15. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've personally seen the Series Bible for Voyager, so, yes, one does exist.

    Also, Voyager is not as purely "episodic" as people try to claim.
     
  16. WarpTenLizard

    WarpTenLizard Commander Red Shirt

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    Chakotay, Kes or the dweeb, obviously.