No please, no killing off main characters or character destruction. I hate that!
I'm happy that none of those characters were killed off, it was bad enough as it was with Jadzia.
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Would Voyager have been better if it had more character development?
- Thread starter The Overlord
- Start date
I'm happy that none of those characters were killed off, it was bad enough as it was with Jadzia.
Agreed, but I hated the whole idea of a war but lacked any personal casualities; from my understanding Terry Farrell was leaving the show and killing her off didn't feel it reflected the consequences of war, but angry at her for not resigning for another season. War has casualties and DS9 never went there.
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Before ST:Enterprise, I thought Voyager had the best cast to play the parts; to me they've brought in a lot to the table whenever an actor had the chance to do it; Beltran, Russ, and Roxann Dawson were a few I can name who did this. Instead of taking what the actors were giving them, the writers continued their passion to write a weak version of TNG.
Yes, but I still see nor reason to kill off main characters.
What would have been more interesting to see is what the Enterprise under Picard was doing during the war. There are no references at all to what the Enterprise crew did during that time. Were they protecting Risa?
Yes, but I still see nor reason to kill off main characters.
What would have been more interesting to see is what the Enterprise under Picard was doing during the war. There are no references at all to what the Enterprise crew did during that time. Were they protecting Risa?
I would think the Enterprise would be seeking out strange new worlds, and new civilizations than worrying about a needless war. As we've seen through the War seasons of DS9 ships and innocent people are expendable for the enjoyment of the writers and the viewers who likes this kind of children's playpen where killing and blowing up ships were paramount, while the main cast stay unharmed. I would like to believe the Enterprise had better things to do.
I think Voyager's biggest problem was the fans, who wanted . . . you know, I still don't know what the fuck they wanted. I don't. All of these complaints make no sense to me. Voyager's characterization was weak? What the fuck did they want? Did they want them stuck on a fucking planet for a season? Is that it?
Please don't say good writing. I used to swallow those complaints that the writing for "Voyager" was bad in compare to "TNG" and "DS9". That's why I had ignored it for quite some time. Then I started watching the show and wondered what in the fuck those complaints were about. The writing quality of "TNG" and "DS9" struck me as being no better or worse than the other two shows. "DS9" had the best premise, but I didn't think the writing quite lived up to its promise.
Voyager had stronger character development than is often acknowledged in hindsight. It wasn't hit over the head with a sledghammer development, but stuff that baked in over time. TNG too, but I'd argue the VOY team actually worked harder to develop its characters than TNG did. TNG kind of lucked into the characters it did have.
Well just look at it from the Engineering stand point, The ship maybe freash from the dock, but say on year 4 or 5.. The ship would need a refit of somekind ( yes we seen the warp coils being changed in that one episode). You can replicate hull panels, some parts, but they never said they had an "Industrial Replicator" to do large parts, then theres the Baryon sweep you have to do every 5 years.. Having an episode with Blanna saying, Captain.. the ship needs to be put in to a dock, and refited sometime soon.. As said above.. the premise screams for a serialized, non eposdic format.. Ship looses a Nacelle in battle.. or blown out and need to find a replacement.. Owell, what could have been. 
Like protecting Risa?
No, just kidding. I just find it strange that the flag ship of the fleet didn't seem to have any action at all during that conflict.
I can agree that the war part of DS9 may have been a lot of doom and gloom and that stories about space exploring can be more exciting and entertaining. However, this part of the series confirmed my opinion of the Cardassians as more interesting and dangerous villains than the Borg and that it also gave us the most evil, terrible and disgusting villain ever in any Star Trek series., The Female Shapeshifter.
I watched the final seasons of DS9 for the first time last year and I really wanted to have the possibility to step into the TV screen, grab a phaser, set it on its highest level and phase that horrible being out of existance, just like Riker did with Yuta in "The Vengeance Factor".
This is how I feel about VOY.
VOY had character development in a sitcom-ish sense. I don't think that's really a bad thing - one of the best things about VOY is that it has this light friendly/family vibe.
I know Voyager had darker episodes, but I'd generally characterise the tone as quite light, especially compared to DS9, and character development is generally more important when you're going for a darker or more realistic tone.
Overall, I'd say VOY is more about character interactions than character development. Each character feels more or less the same at the end of the show as they did at the start, but what's interesting is how they interacted.
Hey, maybe the true character development is the friends they made along the way...
I know Voyager had darker episodes, but I'd generally characterise the tone as quite light, especially compared to DS9, and character development is generally more important when you're going for a darker or more realistic tone.
Overall, I'd say VOY is more about character interactions than character development. Each character feels more or less the same at the end of the show as they did at the start, but what's interesting is how they interacted.
Hey, maybe the true character development is the friends they made along the way...
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I think Voyager got as much character development as Berman Trek's non-serial format would allow.
Enterprise is the one where the characters desperately needed more to them. We never even learned if Archer commanded anything before the Enterprise. AND HE WAS THE MAIN CHARACTER.
Enterprise is the one where the characters desperately needed more to them. We never even learned if Archer commanded anything before the Enterprise. AND HE WAS THE MAIN CHARACTER.
I agree on this point and one of the highlights for VOY for me is the character growth of Paris and Torres and their relationship, as well as the Doctor. Unfortunately, the sitcom style and the stranded in the Delta story always seemed at odds with each other. Character moments always felt forgotten due to that format.
VOY is a lot of fun, but it missed something for me.
Yup.
Well you can have an uplifting and optimistic viewpoint in a terrible situation, Take another series, Stargate (Sg1, Atlantis.. not so much universe) It was optimistic, cracking jokes, even when the Earth was in mortal danger. Voyager could have done the same in that, yes were 75 years or more away from family, friends.. All we have is this ship. Morale would have been a big problem, but if it showed everybody coming together, supporting each other. They showed that they were tight knit in the show.
They could have done some stuff that showed them generally optimistic, mostly happy, but some people going in to depression, maybe could have dealt with a Suicide of a crew member that maybe his or her best friend was killed by the kazon, and they just went down a dark path, have the crew try to help, but in the end, they take there own life. and then show what the fallout would be. That would have been a good moral story on depression, suicide, and what to do to help.
Maybe have a group of 10 or so crewman decide, we want off this nightmare ship with its Dictator captain!! and they find a nice planet, and then we deal with the fall out from that, maybe even show them on the planet change there mind after some mishap, and then show them trying to catch up to voyager.
They could have done some stuff that showed them generally optimistic, mostly happy, but some people going in to depression, maybe could have dealt with a Suicide of a crew member that maybe his or her best friend was killed by the kazon, and they just went down a dark path, have the crew try to help, but in the end, they take there own life. and then show what the fallout would be. That would have been a good moral story on depression, suicide, and what to do to help.
Maybe have a group of 10 or so crewman decide, we want off this nightmare ship with its Dictator captain!! and they find a nice planet, and then we deal with the fall out from that, maybe even show them on the planet change there mind after some mishap, and then show them trying to catch up to voyager.
This makes me anticipate DS9 even more since I generally prefer darker in tone. VOY is kind of an outlier love for me.
I would say it does have character development and where it doesn't there is usually a good reason why.
Janeway is more cynical and bitter by the end of the series-she states exploration can't justify Carey's death and that isn't an attitude she had earlier.
Kim we see does become a captain in the first shown timeline of Endgame. And he was accumulating experience in the captain's seat. He just didn't have any room for promotion on the ship.
Paris becomes more responsible, a family man,juggling many responsibilities. And he isn't as disrespectful of authority nor is he the skirt chaser he was previously.
B'lanna comes to some peace with her heritage and seems to be in the process of reconciling with her father by the end of the show.
Chakotay is somewhat static, but he is a pretty centered person and by the end was dating seven of nine when he hadn't wanted her on the ship to start with earlier. That's character development.
Tuvok-he makes the most sense, he's a Vulcan, he's been in Starfleet twice, he's centuries old and is hence about as developed as he will ever be. Except for his neurological disease. Which I think is cured. He's Janeway's adviser and confidante, comes to have a greater appreciation for Neelix(the little foot dance is so touching), and I think becomes ever more a friend of Janeway.
Janeway is more cynical and bitter by the end of the series-she states exploration can't justify Carey's death and that isn't an attitude she had earlier.
Kim we see does become a captain in the first shown timeline of Endgame. And he was accumulating experience in the captain's seat. He just didn't have any room for promotion on the ship.
Paris becomes more responsible, a family man,juggling many responsibilities. And he isn't as disrespectful of authority nor is he the skirt chaser he was previously.
B'lanna comes to some peace with her heritage and seems to be in the process of reconciling with her father by the end of the show.
Chakotay is somewhat static, but he is a pretty centered person and by the end was dating seven of nine when he hadn't wanted her on the ship to start with earlier. That's character development.
Tuvok-he makes the most sense, he's a Vulcan, he's been in Starfleet twice, he's centuries old and is hence about as developed as he will ever be. Except for his neurological disease. Which I think is cured. He's Janeway's adviser and confidante, comes to have a greater appreciation for Neelix(the little foot dance is so touching), and I think becomes ever more a friend of Janeway.
Most of those things aren’t really character development. They’re just changes to the character’s situation.
Character development is about a change in characterisation. Take Bashir from DS9. At the start of the series, he’s often naive, idealistic, and unsure of himself. By the end, he’s confident yet somewhat cynical. You could place Bashir from season one next to Bashir from season 7 next to each other and they’d seem like very different people. Even Sisko, who doesn’t change too much, seems changed by the close.
With VOY, the situations of certain characters change but their overall characterisation does not. Even though Paris’ life changes, the way he acts does not. This is written into the very episodic nature of the show. I don’t think that’s a bad thing given how the show was written. I think it’s what gives Voyager some of its charm.
I honestly don’t get why people hold up character development as some necessary characteristic of a good show. Data and Picard are both fantastic characters. Do they develop during TNG? Not really.
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Character Development gives us new nuggets to learn about a character, their past, their personalities, the comic side, the dark side.
Can’t argue against that, myself, even just for snicks.
Can’t argue against that, myself, even just for snicks.
This entire thread is predicated on a fallacy and a misconception.
Voyager had character development in spades.
Voyager had character development in spades.
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