Would Voyager have been better if it had more character development?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by The Overlord, Jan 2, 2019.

  1. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sorry but I keep thinking that Voyager needed some fresh air with a little turn-over : indeed, some characters like Harry Kim & Chakotay quickly stopped evoluting (often due to actors attitude) and it would have been wise to kill them off and replace them by "new" characters who could have brought some new blood like Alaya (to take Chakotay's place) and/or one of 3 young officers seen in Good Shepperds, in preference, Crewman Mitchell but Tefler or Celes would have been interesting too to take Kim's place.
     
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  2. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I must strongly disagree here.

    There was nothing wrong with Chakotay or Kim, there was nothing wrong with Beltran or Wang. The only thing that was wrong was those writers.

    I mean, they had great characters with a lot of potential to write about, they had good actors to work with and they managed to mess it up.

    No wonder that Beltran and Wang got angry when those clowns reduced their characters to nothing more than moving images in a background constructed for Seven , Janeway and The Doctor. It was actually insulting not only to the actors but to the characters, the series and the fans, most particularily to the fans of those neglected characters.

    It wouldn't have helped if Ayala had taken Chakotay's place or Tal Celes taking Kim's place. They were good characters but I canät imagine any of them as a main character. Not to mention that they would have been reduced to nothing more than moving images in the background as well.
     
  3. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    This. Seems like VOY always took the easiest way to viewing figures instead of bothering with something more. Could have taken a character like Kim or Beltran and given them extended stories, but that would be too much of a risk.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  4. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    We as audience members are a fickle bunch what appeals to some doesn't appeal to others. We each draw upon our own experiences in forming opinions. Some of us might watch a show for simple escapism others might think how would we react if we were in a similar situation for some it's somewhere in between.

    I could quite easily say VOY should have had several well developed secondary characters from the crew as they weren't likely to get any replacementss, yes we had a few over the shows run such as Icheb, Noami and until they forgot about likely they thought they had killed him Carey.
     
  5. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Lynx, you can not explain the lack of development for Chakotay & Wang characters in only advancing the argument of misguided writers and/or their severe lack of inspiration. Not when we see what was done with Janeway (though sometimes, the character was crossed by serious inconstencies, which sometimes, made her behaved completly out of her character despite Mulgrew's efforts to stay the course of a captain full of empathy but still in command and who can be led to commit judgment errors), the Doctor (the idea to make him evolved from a simple EMH to a sentient was ther, even if Picardo brought his talent and sensitivity to enlarge the fields of his competences at the risk of becoming ridiculous sometimes, to make him adopt human attitude with its weaknesses) or Seven (Brannon Braga created the character and the pitch of her evolution from being a Borg to a female individual who wore Borg implants but Ryan brought her sensitivity to the character behind a stiffness and a detachment appearance).

    We have to stop of putting everything that was not in a good way on the back of writers, actors/actresses
    have their share of responsibility for the fact that their characters will be credible in his/her character, by viewers (to be an actor, it is not only learning a text/dialog to better reciting it by heart but to perform it in immersing oneself in the skin of his/her character (including by documenting or meeting similar figures) and being able to show a range of emotions in using gestural/corporal expression and creative oral expression techniques) and even if the actor/actress has the potential (skills) and the freedom (production/director) to do it, to enhance his/her character (I remind that if Mulgrew & Picardo managed to improve their characters, others had the opportunity to do it too!) .
    -> when we surf on the Web and various ST: Voyager's forums, what was often criticized about Chakotay's character was 1) the mess around his Native American background ("the clothes do not make the man!" -> a tatoo and one or two "A Cuchi Moya - I'm far from hom and the bones of my ancestors but maybe there's a powerful being who will watch over me and give the answers I seek"
    accompanied by the sound of a flute was frankly stereotyped and even insulting towards Native American population and I wonder if RB has just only tried to refine his role in adding some unknown elements associated to Native American culture and/or life style and/or just visited an Indian reservation & interviewed its occupants on their style and way of life, traditions, beliefs, etc... instead of relying on the so-called expert hired by the production?! -> the Native American mess wasn't Beltran's responsability but not even trying to correct/prove and improve the N.A's storyline was his: for a scene, while he knew that in the scenario, his character had to light a fire in the traditional way, he failed to do it because well, he had never tried by himself. Result: the fire was lighted by in the most conventional manner, with matches, which earned RB to spend quite humiliating moment, enduring jeering and teasing from other actors around. I know it is a little detail but it says a lot about Beltran). 2) the fact that the character really never evolved in 7 years. And about his performer, Robert Beltran, his woodenness* acting (including in first 3 seasons) and his stiffness in the posture whatever the situations, defaults shared by Garett Wang, besides.

    (*well, except when his Chakotay's character was supposed to be angry or frustrated by Janeway and/or Paris actions. In these cases, RB used to force his acting performance to feign these feelings, what wasn't more credible).

    However, I recognize a lack of a narrative continuity in the development of the situation/stories ... and the propension to totally fail any romance and/or characters and even both in Paris/Torres storyline: yes, they became an item then a married couple then parents but at what price! -> both lost what made them so special as individuals, especially Paris, as if entering in a relationship and being later a parent allowed to gain maturity & confidence... at the point to be boring but retained an outgoing and vivacious personality (playful and still highly developed childish but who knows how to be serious when necessary for Tom Paris!). As for Torres, the out of control choleric who was ready to bite and punch with or without provocation, became the sweet and reasonnable officer that everybody would want as daughter, thanks to power of love & respect ?! Come on, temperamental people never lose this bad habit, which reappear
    some point in their lives (ask to Alec Baldwin! :whistle:)!

    Surely Chakotay & Kim characters had potential to write about ...but had their performers, Beltran & Wang, the necessarely acting skills to make them evolve? I wonder seriously! :shrug:
    Honestly, thses actors have never really managed to impress me in 7 seasons contrary to Mulgrew & Picardo (though I'm not a fan of the Doctor) & Ryan - general performances even if at the beginning,there was some trial and error which seems coherent, to get its bearing. I'd add McNeil in Threeshold, Jennifer Lien's performance in Warlord and Scorpion - part 1 and Philips when his character, Neelix, had to face a sort of Mengele who has killed his people with a virus he had created or when he was killed then ressucitated.
    -> the only time where RB a,d GW performances were alright - and even unexpectly pretty good concerning Wang - was in "Timeless". It would have been a shame if they had screwed this double episode which turned around their characters. :lol:

    As for the fact that they got angry because of their demotions in the show, and as seeing as
    nothing they could say to convince production to give them a chance to show what they could do, they had the solution to leave by themselves instead of rushing in the medias to bad mouth each one more so than the other, in order to be fired and get compensation. It would have been classier from the actors and not so extraordinary as seeing as other actors/actresses have done it before further to disgreement on the evolution of their characters, storylines/salaries, etc... . They would have just seen their characters being killed off like Jadzia or leaving the ship to live their lives like Neelix! Nothing dramatic, right?!
    -> Although there was nothing wrong with them, according to Lynx, Wang saw his still young acting carrier gun down & Beltran seemed stuck to very secondary roles afterwards (except "Big Love" for 11 episodes). :rolleyes:

    Even if I think that the production was forced to keep Beltran and Wang in the casting, Berman and Braga acted smartly in reducing their roles to the one of "dishes smuggler"! :whistle: Even in Endgame, Kim's words about Voyager's journey and Chakotay's behaviour towards Janeway and Seven were so "out of character" that their credibility was tainted that it is almost laughable! :rolleyes:

    For the second point (to be reduced sooner or later to the background), surely but for the first point (to be able to switch with Chakotay or Kim -> I would have easily take Harren instead of Celes), I don't know why their performers wouldn't have been able to hold a more important role. Mitchell for ex.despite a bad & lazy attitude, was a curious intellectual, who could have easily matched Kim's potential in engineering. As for Dalby (I quoted Ayala by mistake, sorry!), his recruiting in the Maquis after his wife was raped & killed by Cardassians, his propension to show empathy and support while demonstrating leadership skills in Learning Curve, would have been a good match to take Chakotay's place.

    As for Tefler & Celes, it could have been funny and even interesting to follow them as an item (there was a true complicity between them) or as individuals : they were smart (Celes only lacked confidence in herself but except that, she was an ok crewwoman & Tefler was a good but discreet crewman), funny (Celes gaffes and timidity ,Tefler's hypochondria).
    -> I tell you, a good pair!
     
  6. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I do agree with some of your points but I still don't find Beltran's or Wang's acting bad. When they were given the chance to shine, they did it. But that was very seldom.

    Kim was painted in a corner right from the start, forever doomed to be "young Ensign Kim". He was at his best as Paris's sidekick. However, I think he was good in "Non Sequitur" and "Favorite Son". Sometimes he was downright pathetic but I don't blame Wang for some of his more stupid lines.

    Chakotay could have been the best First Officer ever, even better than Riker but it was not Beltran's fault that he didn't become that. The First Officer is supposed to lead many away teams on their missions and also question the Captain if the Captain is wrong but that seldom happened on Voyager because the writers had decided that Janeway was right in all her decisions and that's it.

    If the situation was acceptable in seasons 1,2 and 3, it became much worse when Seven took over the show because Voyager no longer needed a First Officer, an engineer or almost anything else because Seven could fill upp all those roles with her Borg knowledge.

    I don't know if you have read the early Voyager books but in those books both Chakotay and Kim plays more important roles than in the TV series and so do all the other characters as well.

    As for the "Native American mess" as you correctly calls it, it was the writers who were responsible for that mess. I wouldn't be surprised if Beltran did have some suggestions how to make a more realistic picture of Chakotay's heritage but I wouldn't be surprised if his suggestions were ignored or turned down by Big Boss and his court of yes-sayers and nodding donkeys. This could also have fueled Beltran's anger over how he and his character were treated, who knows?

    A lot of people react negatively on Beltran's and Wang's trashing of their bosses. But I see it as a sign of health that anyone dared to stand up against those clowns. I wish that more of the cast members would have done that.
     
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  7. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    I entirely agree.

    @HugeLobes-I have to disagree with you on that. Paris is more mellow and responsible. That's development. Janeway is more bitter-that's development, not necessarily good or healthy development but it doesn't have to be. Kim is accumulating experience we see this, B'lanna hates her father at one point and seems to be mellowing out.

    If anything their situations change the least-their jobs are the same for the most part.
     
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  8. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I have to say that Wang performance in "Timeless" really surprised me in a good way but in general, his acting blank and stiffness. As for Kim's character, I'd define him as the good, smart (but in search of the true & big love) friend you remember when you are in need of /look for compagny or a service and you know that he will be very helpful BUT outside that, you will forget him right he will have passed the door. That was almost what happened to Harry Kim once Torres became Paris love interest. Harry Kim played the 3rd wheel!

    As for Beltran, If I remember well,, his will to be more active in scenarios wasn't to improve the Native American part but to see his Chakotay's character more often at the forefront and preferably, in action. The actor wanted more scenes between his character and Tuvok, the Doctor, Neelix...but according to what we saw/learnt,on screen, Chakotay's character felt only disdain for Paris, Seven & the Doctor AND haughtiness for Tuvok so, I don't see what would have been the point of shooting more scenes with other: Chakotay didn't befriend with any of them (and still less, love, whatever producers/writers would want to make us believe!) and vice versa. They tolerate each other because they do not have a choice, stuck they were on a vessel lost in middle of DQ but nothing more.
    -> the only ones who found favor in his eyes where Janeway (hoping desesperatly that she would returned his feeling and finally share her bed ... and her command with him) and Torres (by sentimentality as a big brother who would protect & keep an eye on his "naive" protégé and I guess too, by interest for her engineering talent too, which can be usefull).
    (-> does anyone could explain why writers make Chakotay so distant and even disinterested towards the crew... (remember his attitude towards the 3 crewman in "the Good Sheperd", further to Carey/ Suder, etc...)? If a Captain can show empathy and interest in each member of her crew through the years, why could her First Officer not do the same, right?!)

    And in term of quality of performances, I fear that Beltran's acting would have suffered a lot of the comparisions -> Picardo's acting is like Mulgrew's, above the competition. And if we take Russ, Ryan, McNeil & Philips performances in dramatic scenes, we would notice that they were able to act pretty well too...)

    Lynx said:
    I don't know if you have read the early Voyager books but in those books both Chakotay and Kim plays more important roles than in the TV series and so do all the other characters as well.

    I only read "Atonement". And that was enough for me: Chakotay being re-integrated by Starfleet after the past he had, his promotion as the new Capitain of USS Voyager ; Janeway being court-martialed and condemned to death penalty after all she has done for her crew and in the interest of Starfleet/the Federation. At the end, she will be re-integrated and promoted Admiral ; Janeway/Chakotay. Definitively, NO. Everything was unlikely for me so, I stopped but I like reading the conspiracies invented between services/Deptments, fight of ego in Starfleet HD, friendship/loyalty between former Voyager's senior crew...

    Lynx said:
    As for the "Native American mess" as you correctly calls it, it was the writers who were responsible for that mess. I wouldn't be surprised if Beltran did have some suggestions how to make a more realistic picture of Chakotay's heritage but I wouldn't be surprised if his suggestions were ignored or turned down by Big Boss and his court of yes-sayers and nodding donkeys. This could also have fueled Beltran's anger over how he and his character were treated, who knows?

    You know what, if it was up to me, I would have written a dignified death to Chakotay's character, one based on sacrifice of his person by loyalty (and love?) of his Captain and friend in the 1st part of Endgame (while Adm. Janeway woudd have died in the 2nd part but as she didn't really exist, no deeper damage) instead of this wishy-washy part he had. Something the actor could have been proud (some good action and lines for his character offering an image of hero).
    -> I know that Braga planned to kill-off Seven in making sacrifice herself for the good of Voyager and her crew but with Chakotay's death, 1) Capt. Janeway would have been more motivated to run and face Borg Queen instead of following her döppelhanger's orders ; 2) in losing one of her dear friend, her return to Earth would have been maybe more sour : yes, she managed to kill her worst ennemy, to bring back her crew on Earth, to save Tuvok from a death conditon, to offer to Seven a second life among hers but in managing that, she would have lost a beloved friend.

    Lynx said:
    A lot of people react negatively on Beltran's and Wang's trashing of their bosses. But I see it as a sign of health that anyone dared to stand up against those clowns. I wish that more of the cast members would have done that.

    Sorry but I don't see what the "trashing on their bosses" brings positive things. They were hell of lucky to be hold to join the casting while they collected minor apparitions on TV, known only by their devoted fans (btw, I would be curious to see their auditions because for me there was clearly something wrong in their choice!), even if their roles were minor, seasons after seasons, they kept being generoulsly paid, assured to be and sure to benefit of a star status during and outside their public apparitions ... . And the only way to show their gratitude was to "bite the hand that feeds you", only because they were disappointed and disagreed by the way their characters were treated, provoking Voyager's producers still and still to be fired in order to better victimize in the eyes of their fans... and make them a trial to receive compensations ... Not very class, if you want my opinion!
    -> no matter what actors have done after the 7 seasons of Voyager and/or what will be their next projects (well, not totally true concerning Mulgrew who lived another big and successful adventure with OITNB, McNeil/Dawson who became successfull directors in mulitude shows) , for public and medias, they will always be remembered as a part of Star Trek's history !

    Fortunately - and maybe because there was too much complacency towards some population, including actors/actresses, producers and directors - today, things seem to change and people in contract have to be more careful about what they do/ say on and outside sets. Broadcasts do not hesitate to fire their personal anymore and actors/actresses who have been too long protected under the pretext they were popular, are often the first victims. Beltran & Wangs have taken advantage of this policy from 1994 to 2001. They were lucky at this time. Today, they would be fired with no hesistation and replace and even see their shows canceled, regardless opinion's views!
    -> an actor/actress is an employee before all, who is subject to the same rules than anybody else about respect of work ; respect of the environnement (people with those he/she works, regardless they status : colleagues or staff working behind the cameras) ; respect of his/her bosses.
     
  9. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Oh, I just fell on this article about various speculations made through the years

    https://screenrant.com/star-trek-voyager-fan-theories/

    - Janeway Truly Hates Harry -> :guffaw:

    - The Warship Voyager Is Real (And From The Mirror Universe)

    - The Holodeck Is An Emergency Generator -> :techman:

    - Fear's First Victim Was An Accident

    - B'Elanna Had A Tribble As Her Animal Guide

    - Voyager's Deuterium Shortage Was A Cover-Up For Something Else

    - The Lost Daughter Of Legate Ghemor Is Seska

    - The Doctor Never Planned To Off Seven Of Nine

    - Neelix Is A Predator -> :D Neelix/Kes :barf:

    - Tom Paris's Double Offed Himself

    - The Cause of Kes' Insanity

    - Friendship One Was Intended To Insult The Vulcans -> :vulcan: Vulcans can not be insulted. Ask to Spock and Tuvok!

    - The Doctor Has No Backup Files On Purpose -> :techman:

    - Janeway Marries Mark -> even if Janeway loved very much Mark, once she learnt that he has dumped her for his assistant, I think that she was over him so no! :whistle:

    - Tom Paris and Harry Kim Were A Couple -> cf to P/K's fanfictions

    - Quantum Leap Was Part Of Starfleet -> because of Scott Bakula ? :wtf:

    - Ocampans Use Mind Manipulation -> not kind for Kes! :whistle:

    - The Kuvah'magh Will Find The Sword Of Kahless ->

    - Everything After "Year Of Hell" Is A Dream

    - The Borg Queen Is Seven Of Nine's Mother -> :techman:

    - The Caretaker Was Actually Trying To Wipe Out The Ocampa

    - Chakotay's Is Seven's Beard To Hide Her Love For Janeway -> Ha! :devil:

    - Seven Of Nine Became A Borg Queen -> cool! :devil:

    - Starfleet Lost Voyager On Purpose -> :ouch:
     
  10. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In fact, all of your complaints about Chakotay doing this and doing that comes back to the same problem: The writers!

    If I had been a writer, I would have included a scene very early on where Tom and Chakotay sorted out their differences over a beer at Sandrines with Tom telling Chakotay that he never betrayed the Maquis, that he actually was helping them by letting Starfleet capture him instead of the crew on Chakotay's ship.

    I would have done the same with some other Chakotay vs other main character as well. Case closed! :beer:

    And no, I don't want any killing off main characters followed by a lot of sentimental drivel. I hate that! :mad:

    If I really want to see some depressive, tear-jerking crap, then I watch the news. It's more than enough of it there.

    You mention the Voyager book "Atonement" as the only Voyager book you have read. I haven't read that one myself since it's an "after-Kes book" and what I can see, not particularily good either. Obviously you had the bad luck of chosing the wrong book.

    The books which I refer to are the books which covers the time period in seasons 1,2 and 3 when Kes was still on the ship. I find them very entertaining. Some of them like the masterpiece "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox, "Marooned" by Christie Golden and "Her Klingon Soul" by Michael Jan Friedman would have been great TV episodes.

    As for "biting the hands which feeds you" well if that hand feeds you with poison, then it deservs a real bite!
    Not to mention that being nice and obedient to those in charge was obviously not the right method either. Look what happened to poor Jennifer Lien!

    I can agree that Kim was a weak character and that he more and less dissapeared when Tom and B'Elanna became a couple. But who were responsible for that? Well here we go again: The writers!

    You can compare Kim with Geordi LaForge who also was a nice, good, smart fellow and friend. But the difference is that the writers did do something for the LaForge character who was involved in a lot of good episodes and exciting events while Kim forever was stuck in the same role as the whipping boy of the series.

    In the early Voyager books, he's actually doing a lot of good things but unfortunately the whipping boy syndrome is visible even here because he ends up in sickbay in too many of them. But at least he's more exciting and important in the books than in the TV series.

    What I do like with most of those books is that all characters get a piece of the action which did happen sometimes in season 1, 2 and 3 of the series but was gone after that when Seven took over the show.

    As for the comment that Beltran and Wang would have been fired today if Voyager ahd been made today, well obviously the TV and movie industry have become even more opressive and totalitarian than it was before.
    And we can see the result of that!

    Most of the TV series and movies produced and aired in the 2010's are downright crap, not more worth than an used toilet paper. Just doom-and-gloom, exaggerated political correctness, lousy stories and even more lousy acting. Compared to today's writers and producers, Berman and his gang almost looks like benevolent masterminds.

    The 2010's must be the most boring period ever when it comes to entertainment. The music sucks and so does the movies and the TV series too!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
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  11. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    Fair enough, I just don’t think there’s that much of a change in the way they act. I always think a good way to judge characters is wondering how it would be if I met them in a bar. I feel like if I met Paris in a bar prior to season one and then after season 7, I wouldn’t think much had changed. I guess it’s one of those YMMV things:shrug:
     
  12. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    Really? Not sure about movies or music, but TV has become incredibly good over the last 10 years or so!
     
  13. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I would actually be happy about that. I liked Paris as he was in seasons 1,2 and 3.
     
  14. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, I don't live in the US so I don't have the opportunity to watch everything produced there.
    But a lot of it comes over to my part of the world and I'm not too happy with the new series I have watched so far.

    Back in the good, old days there were TNG, DS9, Voyager, Stargate SG1, Stargate Atlantis, Babylon 5, Farscape, CSI, CSI Miami, CSI New York, NCIS, NCIS Los Angeles, NCIS New Orleans, Law and Order, Law and Order Criminal Intent, Law and Order SVU, Hawaii 5-0, Chicago PD.

    The only thing I watch now is NCIS. The only show I find watchable.

    NCIS Los Angeles and NCIS New Orleans have become rather bad ( I watch some occasional episode now and then but...), Law and Order SVU, Hawaii 5-0, and Chicago PD have dissapeared from my available channels for unknown reasons and the rest are sadly gone. :weep:
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  15. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Lynx, for me, regardless we talk about a show or a movie, it is a team effort : writers (who create as well characters, as environment as situations -> sometimes, they hit the nail and sometimes, they "screwed up"), producers (who valid the scenarios -> in Voyager, some of them were very good while some others trully and completely sucked ; direct the procedure and provides the means to adapt to the screen what was written down on paper -> they put a lot of money on useless things (Mulgrew hairstyles; hiring 4 young actors to perform Borg kids to show Seven's maternal instinct ; an additional episode on Fair Haven/Michael, etc...) while they refused to invest more in talented guest stars and making good arcs ; directors (who directs the actors and coordinates the work of technicians among other things) and actors (who bring to life characters created from scratch -> some of them work their character to improve him/her as to make it larger than life and some others have stuck to what was in their hands). But at the very end, it is the actor/actress (and I don't count the number of time where I read critics saying that this or that actor, known or beginner, saved by his/her strong performance a weak scenario and/or magnified a scenario which initially was already very attractive/interesting. I myself fell for some actors/actresses performance -> I vaguely remembered Kate Mulgrew from a repeat of Madame Columbo years before and I wasn't a fan of Star Trek or even Sci-Fi so, when I watched The Caretaker, I had no idea of what to expect but her performance in The Caretaker gave me the will to follow her in her new adventures. And S4 was a bonus with Janeway - Seven, where Mulgrew offered a new facet of her talents. The last time I have felt this was with Gillian Anderson in X-Files ; Robert Picardo deeply involved himself to improve his character and became easily a favourite...even if he was not mine but it's ok ; Michelle Yeoh in Star Trek: Discovery, while she didn't lead the show, managed to bring so much in her character that now, she's going to have her own series while Sonaqua Martin-Green's performance, who leads the show, is often considered as very average and even mediocre), the natural or manufactured decors and in case of Sci-Fi show/movie, the special effects (although Voyager was shot mainly in 90's, they were pretty good) that viewers see.

    The only fault I could reproach to Voyager's writers was to have been too many and to have worked independently of each other, without exchanging informations about characters/ situations and the lack of direction from producers -> Result: Janeway's dramatic changing attitude and/ or situations which were contradictorily stated from an episode to another one.
    -> when we work in a vacuum (= without any reference) , it can hardly be otherwise! Maybe one day, writers themselves or encourages by producers or even actors could impose a strict plan to follow and descriptive sheets for each characters to follow too, regardless who is in charge

    (in my job, if I submitting a detailed brief to my boss which doesn't correspond to what he thinks and wants, I'm good to rework it again and again until it gives him satisfaction, what means a short but concise and logic piece of work but there will always be a control!).

    About Chakotay, he spent his time to treat Paris, Tuvok, Kim, the Doctor and even Neelix (and Kes) with the same distance and even disinterest but this can be explain (indeed, some people prefer to keep a professional distance on and off work. What was less understandable was the fact that for a man who had a crew at his order, he didn't have frequented much of his people in 7 years, while they knew him for a long time and kept having an unswerving loyality to him -> for the recognition side, we can forget! :whistle: . Anyway, I think that it was a will from successive screenwriters and directors (any of them took the responsability to make Chakotay and Paris or Chakotay and Tuvok, having cordial relations, although they had the power to do it).

    If you didn't read Atonement yet, I'm sorry to have spoilt some situations. :sigh: But I think you will like the reading. :)
    Jennifer Lien was unfairly "fired" (even if in fact, her contract wasn't renewed) to make place to Jeri Ryan and even if I liked the latter and what she brought to Seven, I always said that Lien's leaving has been a mistake : Kes could have been very helpful to Seven in helping her to integrate into the crew quicklier and be with Janeway, the Doctor and Tuvok someone at her side in difficult moments.

    Not being known to be a politically correct person, I like people saying what they think because myself, I tend to speak my mind BUT I say NO to those who open their mouth with the only intention is to critic in only retaining what has been wrong, insult and hurt.
    -> Robert Beltran had very often distrust and insult towards writers and producers under the pretext of not being listened and his ideas being systematically rejected..,what have been partially wrong as seeing as the idea to sent Tom in the brig in Thirty Days, was his; to make Chakotay kissing Seven was his (even if all started from a malicious bet from Beltran with the intention to provoke Braga who dated Seven's performer, Jeri Ryan); to have an episode with Chakotay boxing because he liked & practised the sport was his idea too, even if at the end, the episode sucked dramatically. The problem was that maybe, Beltran's ideas was too far from what Bernan/Braga and screewriters planned to take up his ideas. And afterwards, it was Beltran's attitude who made producers and screenwriters gave up writing for his character. :shrug:
    When people reach this level of misunderstanding and mistrust until being frustrated, well maybe it's time to weigh anchor and sail to greener "lands" (=jobs) and even more so because Beltran lamented to
    have had let some interesting proposals passed before his eyes because of his engagement with Voyager. No employer (here, studios) can prevent an employee (here, an actor) from starting if he/she makes the request, even if she/he was under contract. Of course, it would not have done without difficulty (that the employee owes money to his former employer = the studios and/or ensures a certain number of hours/days of work = episodes like in the past Farrah Fawcett in Charlie's Angel, more recently Paget Brewster in Criminal Minds have done, without forgetting, a ban from the said studio for other projects/tv movies/appearances in other series produced by the same people for some years but at least, for an actor/actress, to leave during his/her current contract isn't an impossible mission.
    -> what I say here applies to Garrett Wang too. Frankly, what he took him to go and tell the media that more or less, he would do a better job than Bernan with aliens while the said Bernan who was the one who created and produced with successful, DS9 which was aired before Voyager and ran 7 seasons, and some movies with Picard OR accusing Beltran of being a racist because he refused to let him direct an episode?! :rolleyes:

    And for you when studios and/or producers remind to an actor/actress, they have spent time and money to hire and pay generously since, his/her obligations as opressive and totalitarian, I'd say that maybe the reason to recall the rights and obligations of each came after years of laxity, with the said actors/actresses assaulting physically and/or verbally people around them on/off sets or via medias*, always have gone out without consequence, what created a poisonous climate). Now, this time seems to be over and studios tend to take quickly the decision to cut the rotten fruit and/or facilitate his/her departure, regardless his/her popularity and even if it means a decrease in audience (cf to Thomas Gibson who is an excellent actor but an impulsive individual was fired from Criminal Minds, 2 years ago, Clayne Crawford in Lethal Weapon, 1 year ago, Roseanne Barr and Pauley Perrette, last year, etc...), then it may be time to remind him/her of the rules of the game as everything to everyone.
    -> concerning me, I don't support all decisions/actions taken by my employer but I do or try to do with it. That being said, if and when this went/goes to far, I'm not afraid to open my mouth to say what I think but I always do it with calm, respect of my interlocutors and a note full of arguments for/against and propositions to oppose (hey, I have not been trained as a lawyer for nothing! :D). And you know what, it works, even if I don't manage to move walls, some improvements are made slowly but surely. Howere, I don't forget who I am (an employee) and what were/are my rights (a few but nevertheless, substantial) and obligations (numerous but bearable and operationnally logic). Plus, I'm well paid for what I do, a job which is in a field that I love and even if things do not always go as I want and often is often stressing and requesting a lot of sacrifices from my part (very early morning arrival and late evening departure, work to bring home), I do with it without complaining every time, too happy to be there!

    * It is what happens in entrerpises and when things go to far, sanctions the reprimands and sanctions for repeat offenses, fall, there is nothing more normal in my opinion.
     
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  16. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Location:
    Great Britain
    Wouldn't character descriptions be in the shows bible? The issue then becomes keeping those up to date as a show progresses and ensuring writers read it before writing a script and characters don't act of character without good reason.

    Out of all the Trek shows which characters seemed to fluctuate most in how their attitudes changed from episode to episode? And which changed the least?
     
  17. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Location:
    Sunny California
    Beltran understood as seasons went by he would be the punching bag for Janeway's female superiority complex; every disagreement he had with her would always be trumped by her to make him look like the fool. The design was not to make a man contradict or make the first woman captain appear weak. He knew that dumb approach was a waste of the character of Chakotay so I don't blame Beltran for doing everything in his power to be cast off from the series, and unfortunately he didn't get his wish.
     
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  18. chris of nine

    chris of nine Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    In Equinox 2, when Janeway breaks, and becomes malevolent in her obsession to defeat Ransom, Beltran got his wish to play hero XO.
    Countermandering Janeway, saving Number Four from torture, choosing communication with the life forms, coming up with a better plan, playing Good Cop.

    Both are departures from previous character development.

    Beltran gets his way.

    Then gets relieved.

    “I don’t know what’s gotten into you, Kathryn.”

    “I was about to say the same thing.”

    At that point, I was sure that the life forms had taken her over.

    Which is exactly what the writers wanted us to think.
     
  19. chris of nine

    chris of nine Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    I don’t think there was a show bible.

    Just guidelines, sorta.

    The writers, so many, and ratings concerns, made it impossible.

    Ron Moore ......would have insisted on a show bible, as he did with BSG.

    But, Voyager....it’s episodic TV. But that’s okay with me.

    Reset.
     
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  20. Abi Smith

    Abi Smith Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Is there ever an argument against character development?