I wish Enterprise would have gotten the finale it deserved (and honestly about another 3 or 4 seasons at least down the line.) It really doesnt matter to me, because as someone said, it's obvious that TATV was meant to be a fast wrap up of a show that had just hit its prime and isn't really canon.
Would these are the voyages been less hated if it was not the last episode?
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The scene where Riker freezes the holodeck program, moves in on the motionless (and defenseless) T'Pol, and kisses her is beyond creepy.
Make TATV the pilot so that everything that follows is just the holodeck fantasy/retelling for characters from TNG/DS9/VOY when faced with similar tough choices.
I'll duck for cover now
I'll duck for cover now
Ha-ha, I remember thinking it seemed a bit weird. I'm sure they were just trying to be 'cute'. But like so many other elements of the episode it just came off poorly.
Yeah, if it had been a good, well-liked episode then that would be a different story. I wasn't a big fan of the holodeck idea but had it been executed well with a good rationale, then I think people might have felt differently. But they picked a background story in the Pegasus that was resolved a long time ago. If they wanted to do something like that they should have picked a background story that lacked resolution. I'm not entirely sure how Riker visiting this moment in time really helped him outside of some tips he got, that he could have got almost anywhere in history. And sadly there were even many issues with the Enterprise portion of the story. If at the very least that was a good story that would have made a big difference.
I think it's one of those things that it's just so poorly executed, it makes it easier to criticize elements that otherwise, while maybe weak, would be easier to ignore if it were a good episode.
You guys are trying valiantly and reeeally reaching for ways TATV might have sucked less, but...
it SUCKED.
The show's own cast said it sucked.
Even Frakes finally said so.
It took a lotta years to break through the denial, but Braga even copped to the suckitude, right? The fact that Bermaga thought it was soooo gooood is part of its suckiness. I mean, two words: TEST READ. C'mon.
The proverbial chimps locked in a room with a typewriter (computer? this joke really dates me) could have written something more satisfying.
Pocket Books retconned it, it sucked so hard.
When you go to Urban Dictionary and look up "suck" there should be a picture of TATV.
It is just plain awful. Fail writ large. Bad.
Worst of all, it was a wasted opportunity to give the show a good sendoff. They knew it was being cancelled. The ENT fandom was put upon, but loyal-- we loved it, warts and all. The finale should have been a salve for our premature loss, a sweet and satisfying swan song. Not a Hindenburg crash & burn.
it SUCKED.
The show's own cast said it sucked.
Even Frakes finally said so.
It took a lotta years to break through the denial, but Braga even copped to the suckitude, right? The fact that Bermaga thought it was soooo gooood is part of its suckiness. I mean, two words: TEST READ. C'mon.
The proverbial chimps locked in a room with a typewriter (computer? this joke really dates me) could have written something more satisfying.
Pocket Books retconned it, it sucked so hard.
When you go to Urban Dictionary and look up "suck" there should be a picture of TATV.
It is just plain awful. Fail writ large. Bad.
Worst of all, it was a wasted opportunity to give the show a good sendoff. They knew it was being cancelled. The ENT fandom was put upon, but loyal-- we loved it, warts and all. The finale should have been a salve for our premature loss, a sweet and satisfying swan song. Not a Hindenburg crash & burn.
I thought at that moment, how deeply BnB must be frustrated and desperately tried to satisfy their inferiority complex. Purely hate, purely rage. They have to destroy everything Manny Coto did, what all the fans love. Just like Medea killed her sons to get revenge from Iason, but that was epic, TATV is farce.
They ruined Shran's honorable image, ignored the Romulan Wars. Romulan Wars! But those were not enough.
They have to attack fans favorites:
Brilliant engineer Trip must find a most stupid way to kill himself.
Hoshi, who Trip loved and cared like a sister, have to say about him that Trip could barely speak English and find him uncultivated. Malcolm tells about his best friend " not tactful, hick, etc." I never had a feeling, they have this kind of problems with Trip all these years. Now they reveal their true faces. Really?
After all cruel things they have to go through, of course TnT cannot have even a solid friendship, that helps to heal their wounds.
T'Pol could not even tell her feelings about Trip, rather talks with Riker about of an alien sucker fish. And get this nauseating "kiss". Ohh, to declare to audience their love, they killed Trip, again. Why not let rape T'Pol, again? Ohh, maybe it will be too much.. Then a little tiny kiss from an Jabba the Riker, which she is not able to refuse? Hmm, it will make it.
If we consider ENT has not the largest fan basis and the TATV is chosen worst episode ever by fans, we can say, even non-fans find the episode terrible.
As I said before, I ignore the TATV, ignore the all the novels after TATV (yes, I read all of them and not only once). They have no love and respect to ENT protagonists and lore.
Yeah, I remember even Berman has finally seen the light. It's sad that was how Berman ended his Star Trek tenure too. I know some fans like to bash Berman, but he really was responsible for a lot of good Star Trek. It would have been nice if his sign off from the franchise was a triumphant, or at least enjoyable episode.
I am ever thankful to the novels for fixing it. One thing I guess Bermaga (I like that) got right IS making it a holodeck adventure (other than making it a single length episode that is--imagine if it was the normal 2 hour finale
), because that allowed the novels to say, yeah, that episode happened, but what they viewed in the holodeck was not the true history.It's funny too, because the novels actually allow me to watch TATV without wanting to
. I just view it through the lens of what I now know from the 'revised history'.
It's funny too, because the novels actually allow me to watch TATV without wanting to
If I may, I would ask you honestly, how satisfied the novels you except revising TATV? Please do not get me wrong, I am not sarcastic or implying to have right to say someone what he likes or not. I really want to know, what makes you "like" them. At least the last ones are for me good random sci-fis, but not good ENT stories. There are amazing fanfics which are much more better than novels. For my head canon, Rigil Kent's uncompleted Endeavour series tell the Romulan Wars from ENT aspect.
At another platform (not English) I wrote critics about them and I said always, people should give the novels a chance. From my own experience, I would say I realized I am forcing myself to like them, while I am worrying to be fair. If I am honest, they are not worth to be part of ENT saga, imho. First I was happy, at least Trip is alive and TGTMD ignored, that TATV took place not after Romulan Wars. (Well, story idea was not very original, as I told before, there are also fanfics before TGTMD written, which have very similar stories and I wouldn't say now I read most of the fanfics.)
Trip was alive but authors have no plan what do to with him. It did not matter, we had hundreds, thousands of new characters whom stories went nowhere. We had too many name droppings so, I have to register one awful secret: ancestors of all ST characters were deadly boring. Trip lost all his creativity and sharp wit and became a toy of some dodgy individuals, reject without any convincingly reason all help offers, brought his own life in danger in many occasions without any reason and goal. He lost his humor and sincerity, gave up the relationship with T'Pol, hurt her without hesitation, became a self-pity, whinny asshole.
A real human being, with all his strengths and weakness, future president of Federation, growing leader Jonathan Archer became a really loser, even a hate object, lost all his charms and charisma without any reason. I am mentoring some junior talents at our company, if I get a presentation of novel Archer like person to the application for my mentoring, I would be very angry with HR dept. for the wasting my time. And I am talking about a normal company, not Federation. No way, this person can be anyone.
And my strong girl T'Pol. She is captain, great! No matter even Malcolm has a better position than her at Starfleet. She learnt how to be a good girl, she disrobes herself when Trip has time and need, does not bother her beautiful head with some complicated issues about their "relationship". For that she had of course Trip, he makes the decisions, alone. She lost the bond with the Trip and left from him. Oh sorry, she does not know this since Trip feels he is not worth to speak with her, but become already "us" with the Orion girl and plans future, how lovely, how Trip-like. No matter, Mr. Martin written she will reconcile with her former husband Koss, remember that one who blackmailed her for marriage. She is been tortured several times at the novels. Why not long term marriage /rape adventure with Koss, before she could find herself with this vile Trip to be willingly handle a piece of crap again? This is my girl! Ohh, I have really great problem with women at novels, but I have written that before. There is not even a strong, likeable woman figure at the novels, but universe is full of transgender soldiers, same sex married Klingons, etc. It is some awkward kind of diversity philosophy which I am not getting in. (OK, ancient Greek society maybe? Not really, even they have Sappho, Gorgo etc.)
Sorry, I do not want to offend or cheapen someone, but the novels, independently how good or bad they are written, they could be written without using the name of all ENT protagonist. All the protagonist are not what they were/ they could be. And do not talk about how war can change the people. I know personally, what war can do.
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It's probably just different people like different things. I've been reading the various novels for years and generally like most of them (of course there are a few exceptions). I've enjoyed the Enterprise relaunch novels. My main complaint was when Pocketbooks decided to cut the Romulan War novels down to 2 books (I think it was supposed to be 4) meaning the 2nd book had to cover about 3 or 4 years. But that's not really a quality issue for me. I just wished there was more (which leads me to my neverending request to someday have a Tales of the Romulan War anthology like the Dominion War to fill in some of the missing history, but I digress).
But I like them, but I get some people don't. Some people love the comic book stories, in my case I've never been a comic book person so I personally don't follow them. But hey, whatever floats someone's boat. One thing about Star Trek is you can sort of pick and choose what extra universe stuff you follow.
One complaint about TATV was how little the crew changed in all the years that passed, it almost could have been immediately after Terra Prime. The novels corrected that. I thought that had to do more with the passage of time, and the members of the crew moving on to other posts. I guess the war was one factor, but one of many.
But again, it's just a matter of preferences, likes and dislikes. I read the relaunch novels from book to book, generally liked the stories and where the characters went. Others don't. I guess I can't explain it much better then that.
But I like them, but I get some people don't. Some people love the comic book stories, in my case I've never been a comic book person so I personally don't follow them. But hey, whatever floats someone's boat. One thing about Star Trek is you can sort of pick and choose what extra universe stuff you follow.
One complaint about TATV was how little the crew changed in all the years that passed, it almost could have been immediately after Terra Prime. The novels corrected that. I thought that had to do more with the passage of time, and the members of the crew moving on to other posts. I guess the war was one factor, but one of many.
But again, it's just a matter of preferences, likes and dislikes. I read the relaunch novels from book to book, generally liked the stories and where the characters went. Others don't. I guess I can't explain it much better then that.
I haven't read all the relaunch novels. But I can't imagine ever reading, or being interested in, a bunch of ENT post-series books that treated The Thing (as we called TATV back in the day) as real and never again featured Trip because he really died.
How incredibly awful that would have been, no more Trip. Forever a hole in the ENTverse where he should be standing.
The ONLY way I would put up with that would be if the E2 survived and Lorian took over as Chief Engineer. Plus T/T would have to have stayed together, they would still need to retcon that. Plus they'd have to give Trip a good death that actually meant something. And it sure would have helped to promote the crew...
Aw man, I give up. There's too much broken in that waste of an hour to fix. Just junk it and give us Seasons 5-7 and the Romulan War, and T/T is alive and Trip is Not.Dead. Fixed!
At least there are still novels with Trip in them, even if they don't appeal to everyone. A Tripless universe would be sad indeed.
How incredibly awful that would have been, no more Trip. Forever a hole in the ENTverse where he should be standing.
The ONLY way I would put up with that would be if the E2 survived and Lorian took over as Chief Engineer. Plus T/T would have to have stayed together, they would still need to retcon that. Plus they'd have to give Trip a good death that actually meant something. And it sure would have helped to promote the crew...
Aw man, I give up. There's too much broken in that waste of an hour to fix. Just junk it and give us Seasons 5-7 and the Romulan War, and T/T is alive and Trip is Not.Dead. Fixed!
At least there are still novels with Trip in them, even if they don't appeal to everyone. A Tripless universe would be sad indeed.
@Damian, thank you very much for your kindly and honestly answer.
So far I know, The Romulan War books were planned as trilogy. The second should be named "In Shraiel's Jaw". If you compare the first book Beneath the Raptor's Wing (2155-2156) with the second one, To Brave To Storm (2156- 2186), it is not pass to realize the second one from the middle extremely rushed. Epic Battle of Cheron, which have according to canon caused 100 year silence of both sides and establishes neutral zone reduced on an easy cavalry-come-at last-minute street fight. No one can convince me that can be the battle of battles. There is no intelligent tactics that we never saw before or at least a kind of adaption of great battle of human history. I have to admit, they were very difficult to read: someone asks a question, answer comes two pages after, between we learn about their childhood or we have to search the words at Romulan/Vulcan/ French dictionary to understand.
I talked about the war as a character changer factor, since it is always associated with negatively impact at human soul (which is not always true) and I consider the characters change their selves mostly in very negatively way. Of course, we change not only in positively way, it would be most unrealistic, but why the hell all the characters must be soo unreasonable?
Thank you again for your long answer!
I am sorry to say, Trip lives not anymore. He is slaughtered in very long, very bloody, very terrifying way, without mercy. He is gone...Same as T'Pol and Archer.
I assume the authors could not handle with the big three and and they decided, make them unlikable, unimportant, unintelligent to promote their own characters. Well, it is my opinion, none of them is interesting or more dimensional or important for the story. If they all died, there will be no game changer effect. They are typical soap opera filler types to me. Even if they would be interesting, it would not what I expected, when I bought the book. If I go fish restaurant, I want to be served fish, I do not want to eat a vegetarian Chinese meal, even if the excellent one. Although I am ready for a sophisticated, experimental fish menu.
It is OK, that the authors have no passion for the protagonists as fans and have some distance with them. Personally, I am not the fan of pink cloudy happy ends. Nevertheless, I feel sometimes that authors really did not watch the show or maybe it is only another business to pay the checks, not more. I am very disappointed.
Maybe Damian bring it to the point: The Thing was terrible, books made it watchable.
So far I know, The Romulan War books were planned as trilogy. The second should be named "In Shraiel's Jaw". If you compare the first book Beneath the Raptor's Wing (2155-2156) with the second one, To Brave To Storm (2156- 2186), it is not pass to realize the second one from the middle extremely rushed. Epic Battle of Cheron, which have according to canon caused 100 year silence of both sides and establishes neutral zone reduced on an easy cavalry-come-at last-minute street fight. No one can convince me that can be the battle of battles. There is no intelligent tactics that we never saw before or at least a kind of adaption of great battle of human history. I have to admit, they were very difficult to read: someone asks a question, answer comes two pages after, between we learn about their childhood or we have to search the words at Romulan/Vulcan/ French dictionary to understand.
I talked about the war as a character changer factor, since it is always associated with negatively impact at human soul (which is not always true) and I consider the characters change their selves mostly in very negatively way. Of course, we change not only in positively way, it would be most unrealistic, but why the hell all the characters must be soo unreasonable?
Thank you again for your long answer!
I am sorry to say, Trip lives not anymore. He is slaughtered in very long, very bloody, very terrifying way, without mercy. He is gone...Same as T'Pol and Archer.
I assume the authors could not handle with the big three and and they decided, make them unlikable, unimportant, unintelligent to promote their own characters. Well, it is my opinion, none of them is interesting or more dimensional or important for the story. If they all died, there will be no game changer effect. They are typical soap opera filler types to me. Even if they would be interesting, it would not what I expected, when I bought the book. If I go fish restaurant, I want to be served fish, I do not want to eat a vegetarian Chinese meal, even if the excellent one. Although I am ready for a sophisticated, experimental fish menu.
It is OK, that the authors have no passion for the protagonists as fans and have some distance with them. Personally, I am not the fan of pink cloudy happy ends. Nevertheless, I feel sometimes that authors really did not watch the show or maybe it is only another business to pay the checks, not more. I am very disappointed.
Maybe Damian bring it to the point: The Thing was terrible, books made it watchable.
I was sorry to see the series shortened because like you said, the 2nd novel was very rushed. I can't imagine auther Michael Martin was pleased with that. He probably had an outline of what he wanted to cover in each novel (I think it was supposed to cover a year per novel) and that probably all got shot to hell. The 1st novel I thought was very good. It covered a lot but was never overwhelming. It seemed appropriate to the content.
But the 2nd book ended up being more of a general overview. And not only was the number of books reduced but I believe the size of the 2nd book was even reduced (as the first was a trade paperback and the 2nd MMPB), further exacerbating the problem.
I remember at the time being so excited that finally we were going to see the Romulan War explained in some fashion. It's a travesty in a way that such a pivotal moment in Star Trek history has no canon explanation, leaving it to the novels to have to provide a narrative. I loved the lead up to the war and the first war novel. The 2nd novel was ok but was just missing so much. I don't blame Martin for that. I'm sure he did the best he could. He was basically reduced to covering highlights.
Which is why whenever it comes up I always throw out my "Tales of the Romulan War" idea to provide some of that detail missing in book 2 (though I honestly don't expect to ever see that, esp. since too much time has passed now and I'm seriously doubtful we will ever see a new Enterprise book again sadly).
But as for the characterizations, I was generally pleased with most of the characterizations done by Mangels, Martin and now Bennett. Trip's joining Section 31 was a bit sudden, but they had to provide some explanation for his 'faked' death and why the crew would be unaware. And he was a key part in bringing Section 31 to a period of dormancy because while his heart was in the right place, wanting to help the Coalition, he is still a decent guy and couldn't support 31's methods. Mayweather had a crisis of confidence in Archer but later came back to the fold when he realized Archer had no choice but to let the Kobayashi Maru be destroyed. I like where they've taken Malcolm. I think he's grown into his command and as a character, and he's finally found a romantic interest, and it's all written in such a way that I feel is believable. I think of all the characters he's had some of the most positive development. It was all always there under the surface. He just needed to find that within himself.
While I doubt the novels will continue, I'd still like to see more. Do Archer and Shran settle their differences re: the noninterference directive (the last novel ended with just a bit of hope on that front); where does Trip go now since his time in Section 31 is, um, at an end, what happens next on Sauria, and I'm also curious to see how and when they solve the issue with the transporters. Obviously it's resolved by 2233 (when Star Trek (2009) begins), but how. And how and when does Archer become President of the Federation (if the historical background from In A Mirror Darkly is used on that point). I imagine Christopher Bennett probably has some ideas of where he'd like to go next if given an opportunity).
While I doubt the novels will continue, I'd still like to see more. Do Archer and Shran settle their differences re: the noninterference directive (the last novel ended with just a bit of hope on that front); where does Trip go now since his time in Section 31 is, um, at an end, what happens next on Sauria, and I'm also curious to see how and when they solve the issue with the transporters. Obviously it's resolved by 2233 (when Star Trek (2009) begins), but how. And how and when does Archer become President of the Federation (if the historical background from In A Mirror Darkly is used on that point). I imagine Christopher Bennett probably has some ideas of where he'd like to go next if given an opportunity).
I cannot answer for anyone else. I don't care if the episode had been the last of the series or not. I thought it was crap. Period.
Sums up my feelings as well.
I always felt that this episode was a horrible way to end not just this series, but nearly 2 decades of STAR TREK being on the air. THAT is what hurts the most.
I wondered if maybe the producers should have done a cliffhanger like how FARSCAPE ended. The fans there, including myself, wrote in to the network to at least conclude the story. It worked. We got THE PEACEKEEPER WARS.
STAR TREK has an even bigger built-in audience, so a campaign for a miniseries might have worked then.
Or a possibility... the network told them not to go that route because they saw that it worked for FARSCAPE, which aired THE PEACEKEEPER WARS several months before ENTERPRISE's cancellation.
I wondered if maybe the producers should have done a cliffhanger like how FARSCAPE ended. The fans there, including myself, wrote in to the network to at least conclude the story. It worked. We got THE PEACEKEEPER WARS.
STAR TREK has an even bigger built-in audience, so a campaign for a miniseries might have worked then.
Or a possibility... the network told them not to go that route because they saw that it worked for FARSCAPE, which aired THE PEACEKEEPER WARS several months before ENTERPRISE's cancellation.
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