Would Nemesis have been a better movie if it focused solely on the Romulans and cut out the Remans?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. Damian

    Damian Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Location:
    United States
    It depends on what the Romulans were after. In this case I figured they wanted to replace a Starfleet captain as a long term spy. There's no reason to assume they'd always want some top level brass, in fact, there probably would be greater chances of detection since higher and more well known Starfleet officers would be better known and any replacement easier to spot.

    But assuming Picard was just some average captain at that time, there was probably less likelihood of accidently being uncovered, and he could still be incredibly useful. High enough on the food chain to do real damage and gain intel, but low enough that he's not as likely to be exposed.
     
  2. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    I guess I still don't quite understand the logic of the whole 'long term spy' concept here. So twenty years before, the Romulans somehow are able to clone some random Starfleet starship captain, but the clone not only has to live a regular lifespan from infancy to a twenty-year old man, but then at twenty the clone automatically ages from twenty to seventy in a matter of hours. So someone has to take care of this clone from infancy to young adulthood, in real time. A twenty year period where this clone is just growing up and basically doing nothing, in which at any time anything could have happened to the man who he was cloned from. He could have died. He could have left Starfleet and raised a family, or joined some other organization. And during that entire twenty-year period, it's not like the clone could really learn anything useful about Picard, because he's stuck on Romulus and Picard is off somewhere else. And even if the clone successfully rapid-aged into looking like the Picard we know, he still wouldn't be able to successfully imitate Picard, because he knows nothing about Picard. Hell, would he even have a British accent?
     
  3. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 7, 2011
    Location:
    Aug 10, 1999
    NEM would've been better if they had Patrick Stewart pull double-duty and play Shinzon. Or at least found someone who looked more like a younger Patrick Stewart. It would've worked better without B-4. And it would've worked better if they cut the number of action scenes down by half and added in the scenes and dialogue they deleted.

    The Remans, I didn't have a problem with.

    A couple of other points too: people complain about the Abrams films being too actiony. I think Nemesis gives them a good run for their money. People also complain about how dark Discovery looks. Nemesis looks even darker than that.
     
    Paul Weaver likes this.
  4. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    But the main problem with the film is that Picard had a clone in the first place. Playing his own clone would not have made the movie better.
     
  5. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 7, 2011
    Location:
    Aug 10, 1999
    Plot-wise, it wouldn't have made it better at all, I agree with you there. But Patrick Stewart would've at least made the part more fun to watch than 2002-era Tom Hardy. Especially if they wrote the character to the actor. He would've had a field day playing the Bad Guy.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    I don't see a need to get stuck with the "problems" outlined above. We never learn Picard would have been particularly specifically targeted here: there could have been thousands of clones. We never learn the clone in the original plan would be matured at the time of ST:NEM specifically: this is just when its warranty runs out and it's the very last time for the age-or-die decision. And we know nothing about the program by which the clone would have learned the skills needed to replace the original, because that program was terminated back when the clone was but a kid.

    Indeed, if anything, the movie shows us that there are clones galore there. Why, Shinzon is able to dig up one relevant to his (for obvious reasons) favored context, an officer who currently serves in Picard's crew! It's just that the clone for Riker or Crusher either never got made, or got killed, or had grown unusable in the intervening years, having an agenda at odds with Shinzon's (and thus probably got killed right there and then).

    The movie never showing this clone-replaces-original thing is one way to approach the Evil Twin Plot. The more conventional one where the switcharoo actually happens might have been too cliched. But a movie balancing between the two would be the most enjoyable of them all, for the very balancing act. Perhaps Shinzon resists the temptation? Perhaps the heroes preempt the switch? Perhaps we're left uncertain whether the switch happens or not?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 1999
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    Ooh, an evil version of Picard (ala Enemy Within), created by a transporter duplication during the events of Unification, or during the War (I suspect Picard was involved with Romulan negotiations) -- ala Second Chances. We know cloning rapidly to maturity was possible too (Up the long ladder, A Man alone) -- perhaps with appropriate Romulan mind control (ala The Mind's Eye)
     
  8. Damian

    Damian Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Location:
    United States

    I think the original intent was that Shinzon would have replaced Picard years earlier and his rapid aging gene used to age him to whatever age Picard was at that point in time. Shinzon did say in the film that it never happened because a new Praetor came into power and abandoned the idea.
     
  9. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    I have no idea what you're talking about. The movie shows nothing of the sort. And if the 'officer who currently serves in Picard's crew' is Data, it was just a coincidence both that Shinzon found B4, and that Data was still serving on the same ship as Picard.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019