Would Nemesis have been a better movie if it focused solely on the Romulans and cut out the Remans?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. Jetboogieman

    Jetboogieman Commander Red Shirt

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  2. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would've been interested in seeing at least one movie with the Romulan Empire Proper.
     
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  3. Sareesataka

    Sareesataka Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The movie would have been only marginally better with the Romulans. Nemesis has too many inherent problems and any improvements from a change over to the Romulans would have been cosmetic at best.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
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  4. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Vice Admiral Admiral

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    My problems with the Remans were that they were a distraction from the Romulans (so my answer to the thread topic is "yes") and where they supposedly came from. I realize that the screen productions aren't beholden to the novels at all, but, they've respected them enough to incorporate things from them on occasion, which shows they are at least somewhat aware of them, and there was no need to slap Diane Duane's excellent Romulan novels in the face by making this new slave species *from* Remus. Could have just as easily been a world conquered by the Empire, or, perhaps more interestingly, a species that *voluntarily joined the Empire*. (And now that I'm thinking about it, maybe that could have been part of a long-term plan to conquer the Romulans from within, and they co-opted the Romulans' Picard clone, Shinzon, as part of the endgame of that plan.)
     
  5. Phil123

    Phil123 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    A movie about Picard (And the crew) brokering peace between Romulus and the Federation would have been a nice way to tie up TNG. Perhaps the Klingons could be worried about the implications for them and that's where Ambassador Worf comes in to help. In a brave move, there could be no action scene at the end - maybe one at the beginning of a skirmish between the Federation and the Romulans, somehow leading to the peace process.
     
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  6. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Here's the thing: It really didn't matter where these aliens were from. They could have been from Remus, they could have been from Romulus, they could have been from some other planet altogether. That's irrelevant. No matter where they came from, John Logan wanted them to be "scary alien vampires" for shock factor and nothing else. It didn't even matter that they were slaves, because they elicited no simpathy from the audience whatsoever. Simply making them from some other planet would have not made the film better.
     
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  7. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The problem isn't the Remans, or even the Romulans. The problem is Shinzon. The movie falls apart because Shinzon is a terrible creation, which is no reflection on Tom Hardy, but he's a villain who has a dozen contradictory motivations, none of which are believable or make sense. The movie could be fixed by writing Shinzon as being this unknown quantity, this shady figure who's been there behind the scenes but been invisible to the Federation, who launches his surprise coux. Then, with the tables cleared, and the Federation knowing nothing about this new status quo, the mission becomes one of trying to find out where this new guy stands in the galactic political scene. Yeah, it would be hard not to parallel The Undiscovered Country, which would have been equally as unrewarding as yet another parallel of The Wrath of Khan :D But there's scope there for... an intriguing political thriller with popcorn action movie bits, or a popcorn action movie that asks questions about political power struggles and the rise and fall of empires. Either would be preferable to Picard's shitty clone and all that nonsense.
     
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  8. Cutie McWhiskers

    Cutie McWhiskers Commodore Commodore

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    Absolutely. NEM was stuffed with so many needless elements and alleged "homage" to previous TOS films that it choked on itself before it even had a chance. At least that ramming scene looked cool, right? There's a reason to incessantly rewatch the movie in glorious 318,000x216,000 resolution when 69k comes out... well, it's closer to 68.688,000,000k and 68k simply sounds too nerdy given the modern day informal vernacular attributed to technology "tech", unprofessional rewrite of computer error messages (whoever "we" are in those wretched error messages, it's a machine and not a sentient being, but let's round it up for a cheap laugh anyway. even cheaper as today's color rendering technology yields far more colors than what the human eye will ever be able to perceive, it becomes ridiculous after a certain point as well...)

    The Remans were simply not necessary - but might be worthy in a TV show where there's more time to set up more focused depth as well as expanding lore more effectively. Especially as they had already watered down the Klingons and Borg and Romulans hadn't been developed in any direction. The Romulans alone would have sufficed. Could the Remans have been written in a way that would have people regardless of fan status caring? Dunno. Did the story care? Didn't seem to...

    ...Very true, there was no care nor concern for the Reman plight, which was all hollow in part due to the poor script. Stick figures helped to set up a hollow scene. A hollow scene made somehow even more hollow by using one rather implausible scenario after another, involving Shinzon's big magical ship. Even more implausible given it's a penal planet to begin with, "asininely ludicrous" doesn't begin to explain the crassness of the "plot". The plot setup was so contrived I almost walked out of the theater over the sheer lameness of its setup. Had I done so, when Riker screams "Kirk Epsilon" I would have missed out on the sole and only time the theater audience made any collective sound, that of thunderous applause as opposed to individual whimpering yawns from a bored audience, and I went early enough as 75% of the theater was filled instead of the hand-count of people you might find three weeks later. Far worse: By 2002, long after TNG became its own self, what the heck is TNG doing leaning on TOS yet again? Even DSC's season 1 premier wasn't as bad, and that's saying something as it had more potential-- but before I digress.

    The movie does send the Romulans into the direction of lasting peace... which also felt contrived. TNG never quite made a decision, as Picard once lamented on. And TNG did largely use the Romulans well enough...

    Ron Perlman was wasted in the role of Viceroy... and may have been wasted in order to get through that second rate script. The one that gives Troi shiny new powers, apocryphal to her personality based on then-decades' worth of introduction, setup, and execution. She could never send thoughts and said so. So let's have fun with headcanon fanon and say she can transmit thoughts if she's on growth hormone intended for rats but she swallowed one by accident and found she can do everything except fling webs from her wrists like how Spiderman can. Forgetting that in the 24th century they have AI doing all that work, even though real rats have far more variables in real life than a simulation ever could, there's always something that can affect the results in x number of cases...) But if she stated she can't (and she had in the TV show) then there'd better be a good explanation as to her finding out she has more. Even "betazoid puberty" might work, but this is above and beyond - the plot had zero explanation for this except the audience is supposed to clap like trained seals expecting a treat after performing. Due, once again, to hollow script taking the universally easy route while forgetting nuanced characterization and the issues therein.

    Shinzon also wanting to attack Earth was facetious.

    But this is the same film that shows young Sheldon Picard with a bald head, which contradicts shown canon at least twice. Not even a remotely plausible explanation of "Well, he had cancer because of the fake heart so we irradiated him and for now he's got no hair." Good grief.

    Not to mention YADA. Yet Another Dataesque prototype Android. Which is already lame given how many TNG had, but this time it's even more insulting to the audience that rivals the camp quality of Lost in Space's naming of its android: The latest droid is called B-4, and we're annoyed. (Sorry, couldn't resist taking the best bit out of "The Outrageous Okona" and using it to better use, as if that takes much.) But YADA, YADA, YADA, the plot holes with his emitting sensor readings and everything else and never mind the rest of the movie, which would be easier to swallow it all if it didn't feel so hollow and phony in its proceedings... ugh.

    And they watched Star Trek II to copy plot points almost identically as a template, they didn't bother watching "Encounter at Farpoint" or other key TNG episodes featuring other Soong androids or anything else??

    Man, that collision scene was really well done. Release a special edition cut of the flick with just that scene, on 4k blu-ray, uncompressed, and the 2 minutes might just fit on one dual-layer disc. I'd buy that, it's a lot easier than to FF through the actual movie to get to just that one scene.
     
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  9. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I liked the Remans, but I do wish Nemesis had been focused on the Romulans. I agree with the idea that the Remans might have worked better on a television show so they could've been fleshed out more (I also wish that the Son'a had been put on DS9 after Insurrection). I don't wish the Remans hadn't been created, because I think their creation/presence could've been used to explain why humans hadn't seen Romulans until "Balance of Terror". The Remans fought the war at the command of the Romulans. I wish a line had been added to Riker's dialogue about how the Remans hadn't been seen since the Earth-Romulan War. Having the Remans as the soldiers who fought that war could've better explained why that war was fought and no Romulans were officially encountered.

    I also agree with the idea that Shinzon was a problem (I was fine with Tom Hardy's performance, but the character's motivations and actions needed work). He could've been a rogue Romulan commander instead of a Picard clone. Or keeping the clone idea, just switch the focus of his ire from Earth to Romulus, which made more sense to me.
     
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  10. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Remus was probably destroyed along with Romulus, so I doubt we’ll see them again. Good enough for me.
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, saving Remus is just about the only thing Spock Prime would have had "only minutes" to complete, after Romulus was gone...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    I think it would have been 'less bad' rather than 'better'. For me, it's the only ST movie without any redeeming features. I wasn't a fan of Generations, First Contact, or Insurrection, but they at least felt like there was something good at the core.

    Felt like they were trying to appeal to a wider audience by putting in a lot of action (which I imagine is largely what the Remans were for), but at the same time it was probably the hardest movie to follow without knowing the Trek universe, so you end up with something that doesn't really appeal to a general viewer or a fan.

    This sort of thing would clearly have been the way to go. Go TWOK where characters have actually moved on and are going through some changes. I think the most obvious problem is this:

    This is a really good point. If this was really going to be the last hurrah for TNG, I think they would have put the effort into making something genuinely good. As it was, felt like they were saying: "Okay, this is the last TNG movie guys, so roll up, roll up! (Except if it's really good and makes lots of money in which case expect about 2 or 3 more."
     
  13. Tom

    Tom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have a hard time believing the Reman's could build this super powerful ship (The Scimitar) , and also the Romulans would not know about it. It would have been better if the Romulans built it, and Remans stole it. One line in the dialog would have fixed that.
     
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  14. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not only that, but the Remans aren't engineers, they're just a bunch of slaves. Other than manual labor, how would they even know how to build a battleship? And where did Shinzon get the materiel to build the ship?
     
  15. BigDaveX

    BigDaveX Commander Red Shirt

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    Shinzon clearly had the backing of the Romulan military in his coup, so I actually could buy that the admiralty might have agreed to build the ship for him to use in his eventual attack on Earth. What I can't buy, however, is that they'd just merrily hand it over to Shinzon and let him crew it up with whomever he pleases, without at least keeping a few of their own loyalists on-board to keep tabs on him.
     
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  16. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    Why would they agree to join his rebellion so far in advance, though? And if they had all the capability to build the ship and the ambition to use it, then what do they need him for in the first place?
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Could be there were loyalists on board...until they got dusted.
     
  18. BigDaveX

    BigDaveX Commander Red Shirt

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    To be honest, that question applies as much to the actual film - they never say why they're backing Shinzon's coup, other than the implication that the old praetor was too much of a peacenik for their liking.

    My guess is they were using Shinzon as a figurehead for their takeover, and also as a convenient fall-guy in case he either screwed up or went rogue.
     
  19. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Commodore Commodore

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    Agreed about the film itself. I just don't think this supposition actually makes anything better.

    Especially since, if he were a convenient fall-guy - which would actually make sense - there would need to be a reasonable possibility that he could have pulled it off by himself, which takes us right back to how could a bunch of prisoners build that ship. Otherwise, it's way too obvious that he had help which completely defeats the purpose of using him as a fall-guy.
     
  20. Elephant999

    Elephant999 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Nemesis is such a forgettable film. The best bit for me was the powerful start where the Senste got vaporised, then it went downhill....

    I only watched it again 2 weeks ago and can’t remembered what happened in it fully, that’s how much I think it is a good film.

    I would have liked no Remans, no Shinzo and just the Romulans. Keep the first part and have it as a Romulan faction trying to take over Romulus.