Would like to see Enterprise come back…

[Sci]

And there can be a serious, adult animation Trek dramedy too.

Sure.

At this point, Enterprise is the most obscure Star Trek series from the POV of the general audience.

Ah yes, the “obscure” series that has a much higher audience score on Rotten Tomatoes

The Rotten Tomatoes Audience Appreciation Score is not a measure of how many people like something in the general population. It is a measure of how much or how little a self-selecting cohort of respondents like something. In other words -- it doesn't measure general popularity, it measures engagement levels of a self-selecting cohort.

I will, however, concede that I spoke inaccurately when I said ENT is the most obscure ST show. TAS remains the most obscure ST show. ENT is the second most obscure.

That covers a lot of ground, since Bakula appeared on a bunch of shows between Quantum Leap & NCIS (ex. Designing Women, Law & Order, etc.). But he’s as famous for playing Jonathan Archer as he is famous for playing Sam Beckett and Dwayne Pride.

No. He is far, far more famous for playing Sam Beckett and Dwayne Pride than for playing Jonathan Archer.

Give them a cheque with enough zeros on it and a decent enough script and they’d come back.

Not necessarily. Not all of the ENT cast are still jobbing actors; Jolene Blalock appears to have retired from acting altogether, and these days her full time job is running her and her husband's philanthropic foundation. Her husband is Jordan Rapino, CEO of LiveNation, one of the biggest entertainment companies in the world -- so she's not hurting for money. She has no incentive to do a revival except an actual desire to play T'Pol again.

When even Blalock is ok appearing on the ENT DVD years after the show ended and again on Star Trek Day last year (which coincides with the 20th anniversary of ENT too, btw),

Those are very different things from starring in a new production.

You clearly miss the point

I did not miss your point. I did not disagree with you because of a lack of comprehension of your meaning on my part. I disagree with you because I think you are incorrect.

that she will come back for her ENT castmates,

I'm sorry, but this is truly fallacious logic. Being willing to do even a day's worth of interviews is a radically different prospect than being willing to come back to star in a full-fledged television production. This is the equivalent of saying that if someone's willing to sit down and talk with you for a couple of hours about what it was like to work at a restaurant fifteen years ago, then they must be willing to come back and become a server again. It's absolute nonsense.

And that doesn't mean she's not willing to come back. It means that you cannot cite doing an interview as evidence of a willingness to star as T'Pol in a major production again.

so her coming out of retirement to don the ears again isn’t impossible,

Nobody has argued it is impossible. What I said is that it is not necessarily true that enough money will motivate her to come back, because she is no longer a jobbing actor and frankly is rich enough that she does not need the money. I said, quite clearly: "She has no incentive to do a revival except an actual desire to play T'Pol again."

Which she might have! I'm not saying she doesn't want to come back or never will. I'm saying, money is most likely not sufficient motivation for her to come back given her personal and financial situation. If she comes back, it will be because she wants to, not because Paramount wrote her a check. She doesn't need the money.

She isn’t coming back for SNW, despite being a major TOS fan and SNW being where the enthusiasm of the studio is now. Otherwise, she would have appeared in the Kelvin films in a cameo appearance.

Did anyone at Paramount even ask her to come back for SNW or the KEL films?

In any case, they aren’t too old to play those characters again if they want too. They could even borrow from the Destiny series and say that the crew jumped ahead six years due to time dilation at the highest sublight speed to bypass the indiscretions in TATV of there being virtually no changes in their professional or personal lives. And skip the Romulan War in the process. It might even be interesting to see them have to adjust to a universe recovering from the Romulan War two decades on, which they have no recollection of and have only learned about through word of mouth and various historical documents.

Sure. There are a million plot devices they could use to bring the ENT cast back if they were to do an ENT revival. Whether or not there are plot devices to use is not really an issue.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Rotten Tomatoes scores are easy to manipulate and should never be used as objective proof in any kind of discussion. That's a cheap shot in what looks like the last desperate gasp of a dying argument.

Its relevant solely for the fact that the critics and the audience scores can be quite different. The critics love Discovery, and it leads to awards. They weren't so fond of ENT, which struggled to get awards. Bu the general audience doesn't seem to care that ENT is not as critically acclaimed as DIS.

I love Enterprise, I really do. But let's not pretend that it has a large section of the Star Trek fanbase clamouring for its' return. Maybe @HopefulRomantic can fill us in, but I'm pretty certain given the amount of activity in here that this is one of the quietest sections of the forum. Compare the Strange New Worlds forum which has a lot of chat and active topics that spring up daily.

Of course it’s the quietest. Unlike it’s predecessors, it doesn’t have seven seasons or multiple movies or even an animated series to it its name. It also never received its own comic books or video games; it’s had to share with other series. It only had 4 season, a handful of novels, and that’s it. There isn’t much to discuss about ENT anymore that hasn’t been discussed to death already in the past couple of decades. And on top of that, it had to work uphill to rehab its image after it was blamed for putting the franchise on ice. Its only with information about ENT behind the scenes that anyone has been able to reassess their stance on ENT and ease up.

Meanwhile, SNW is a new show airing in the present day, boosted by both being a spinoff of DIS, and featuring legacy characters in Pike, Una, Spock, Uhura, Chapel, M’Benga, and the original USS Enterprise herself. Some of the fandom being familiar with Kelvinverse Pike also helped to spike interest too. Plus, its the new shiny thing after years of DIS & PIC. It should have traffic and active topics daily and it would be very concerning if it didn’t.

You've been in this topic for months. You've convinced me you want it to happen and think it could. I'm semi-convinced it's on the very edge of possibility. But you've never once given a convincing 'how' or 'why' to your belief. Just this odd stuff about a secret coterie of Enterprise fans waiting to jump out and watch Enterprise 2.0 in large numbers, exactly like they didn't the first time round.

They didn’t watch the first time because no one watched UPN, and only a handful of Trek viewers even received UPN. And then it got cancelled before it could be put onto CW which had a larger audience than UPN.

And by now, everyone one’s caught on that ENT’s theme song – both versions - was a factor in fans not tuning in or tuning out altogther, and the show should have used Archer’s theme instead. Combine it with Bakula or the other cast members saying the entire “Space, the final frontier…” bit and it would have accepted as a true Star Trek show.

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Hard to imagine this theme turning viewers away.

Voyager was more watched while Netflix had Star Trek and that's seven seasons long and mostly crap. Where were the secret Enterprise army in those days? Why weren't they surging onto Netflix to stream the show 24/7 just to show CBS that an audience existed?

Voyager was the most popular show on Netflix, and all its yielded so far has been the return of Seven of Nine on PIC, Tom Paris on LD, and Admiral Janeway & Chakotay on PRO. There has not been a full reunion of the cast or a Voyager movie release for Paramount+. Clearly there’s more to bringing a show back than being popular on Netflix.

There's a reason we've had Janeway, Chakotay and Seven in recent Trek shows. There's a reason Enterprise is pretty much limited to very deep-cut jokes on Lower Decks. Enterprise is obscure. It's the one that doesn't quite fit properly with TOS or TNG. It has it's fans but it's fans are few.

If you want to fit in, I can see why you might not have any interest in ENT. But I don’t really care about fitting in with the cool kids.

No. He is far, far more famous for playing Sam Beckett and Dwayne Pride than for playing Jonathan Archer.

Your viewpoint is in conflict with these gentlemen…

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I'm sorry, but this is truly fallacious logic. Being willing to do even a day's worth of interviews is a radically different prospect than being willing to come back to star in a full-fledged television production. This is the equivalent of saying that if someone's willing to sit down and talk with you for a couple of hours about what it was like to work at a restaurant fifteen years ago, then they must be willing to come back and become a server again. It's absolute nonsense.


And that doesn't mean she's not willing to come back. It means that you cannot cite doing an interview as evidence of a willingness to star as T'Pol in a major production again.

Actually I can and did, as its all I have to go on, since she was rather silent regarding Trek after the series finale and did not seem to want to have anything to do with it despite being a Trek fan.

Returning at least signals that some hard feelings, if any exist, have subsided since the filming of the series finale.

Nobody has argued it is impossible. What I said is that it is not necessarily true that enough money will motivate her to come back, because she is no longer a jobbing actor and frankly is rich enough that she does not need the money. I said, quite clearly: "She has no incentive to do a revival except an actual desire to play T'Pol again."


Which she might have! I'm not saying she doesn't want to come back or never will. I'm saying, money is most likely not sufficient motivation for her to come back given her personal and financial situation. If she comes back, it will be because she wants to, not because Paramount wrote her a check. She doesn't need the money.

She’ll come back if the script is very good, particularly if its “Broken Bow” quality. And while she doesn’t need the money, she probably won’t work for free either.

Did anyone at Paramount even ask her to come back for SNW or the KEL films?

No one truly knows, although its been suggested by a few that if she returned, it would be for SNW. On what this is based on, I don’t really know – she could technically appear anywhere if the plot makes enough sense - but that’s the sentiment. But after hearing how they handled bringing John Billingsley back for PRO and how he reacted to it, I can see them fumbling the ball in bringing her back as well.

Sure. There are a million plot devices they could use to bring the ENT cast back if they were to do an ENT revival. Whether or not there are plot devices to use is not really an issue.

Considering that they’ll have to figure out how to bring Trip back, and decide when they would set the revival, the plot device matters somewhat.

 

[Sci]

I'm sorry, but this is truly fallacious logic. Being willing to do even a day's worth of interviews is a radically different prospect than being willing to come back to star in a full-fledged television production. This is the equivalent of saying that if someone's willing to sit down and talk with you for a couple of hours about what it was like to work at a restaurant fifteen years ago, then they must be willing to come back and become a server again. It's absolute nonsense.


And that doesn't mean she's not willing to come back. It means that you cannot cite doing an interview as evidence of a willingness to star as T'Pol in a major production again.

Actually I can and did,

Then your logic is fallacious.

as its all I have to go on,

Then just say that instead of making assertive declarations on the basis of no evidence. "I certainly hope that she might be willing to come back if they give her a great script" is a much more reasonable take than, "She'll definitely come back if X."

Returning at least signals that some hard feelings, if any exist, have subsided since the filming of the series finale.

I mean, there doesn't have to be hard feelings for someone to not want to go back to a job. I have no hard feelings about most of my previous places of employment, but that doesn't mean I want to go back.

She’ll come back if the script is very good, particularly if its “Broken Bow” quality.

You hope she will come back if a good script were to be written. I would hope that too! But you don't know that.

Did anyone at Paramount even ask her to come back for SNW or the KEL films?

No one truly knows, although its been suggested by a few that if she returned, it would be for SNW. On what this is based on, I don’t really know – she could technically appear anywhere if the plot makes enough sense - but that’s the sentiment. But after hearing how they handled bringing John Billingsley back for PRO and how he reacted to it, I can see them fumbling the ball in bringing her back as well.

Sounds to me like there's no reason to think anyone asked her back for SNW or the Kelvin Timeline films.

 

[fireproof78]

No, you aren’t listening. Bring back while you can still bring them back. They aren’t getting any younger. And the audience is more receptive to them than most of what CBS is putting out in regards to Star Trek.

Will it make money? Will they all come back? How many have actually been asked vs. us fans making pitches and writing checks reality can't cash?

With due respect, I appreciate you have it all worked out but the math isn't lining up for me. ENT was at the tail end of an era and the numbers demonstrate a downward trend. Despite whatever streaming data is out and available, it has not been enough to get past that downward part. I mean, they are not even willing to invest money in a DS9 remaster. How much money do people reasonably expect CBS to put in to this project?

There's a reason we've had Janeway, Chakotay and Seven in recent Trek shows. There's a reason Enterprise is pretty much limited to very deep-cut jokes on Lower Decks. Enterprise is obscure. It's the one that doesn't quite fit properly with TOS or TNG. It has it's fans but it's fans are few.

Exactly. I know ENT has a small, but passionate following, but this is treating them like "Oh, we're just waiting in secret and when they give the signal...GO!" Like, Star Trek content is being produced at a high pace. If ENT references made money they wouldn't just be making jokes, but pulling in characters as holograms, or recreations.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Then your logic is fallacious.

Your argument suggests that discussions can only have one outcome. Maybe after a 15 minute discussion of catching up, someone does not want to return to a restaurant to be a server. Or maybe they do because they are comfortable in the role and need the money. Or they refuse because they want to co-own the restaurant and manage it instead of going back to being a server. It all depends on what that person wants.

Then just say that instead of making assertive declarations on the basis of no evidence. "I certainly hope that she might be willing to come back if they give her a great script" is a much more reasonable take than, "She'll definitely come back if X."

I provided evidence. You just didn’t like the evidence. Unless there was a falling out we are unaware of, I have no reason to change my viewpoint.

I mean, there doesn't have to be hard feelings for someone to not want to go back to a job. I have no hard feelings about most of my previous places of employment, but that doesn't mean I want to go back.

Sigh.

Believe whatever you want. But someone who has hard feelings wouldn’t show up to interviews and again to Star Trek Day 2021. It’s the sign of someone wanting to leave such sentiments behind. I’ve been through something similar, so I can tell what’s happening. Signs are showing that she’s at the very least warming to Trek. But she hasn’t said anything if she likes the new era.

You hope she will come back if a good script were to be written. I would hope that too! But you don't know that.

Actually, the only reason she took the T’Pol role to begin with was because her agent handed her the “Broken Bow” script and it changed her mind to accept the role. She initially wasn’t going to accept the role of T’Pol until she was given that script. Articles all the way back in 2002 explained as much.

If there were any ideas of trying to bring her back, a great script would be a great place to start.

Sounds to me like there's no reason to think anyone asked her back for SNW or the Kelvin Timeline films.

You don’t know that. Its not like anyone is going to say anything if they have. It ruins the surprise in case there’s a plan to do so.

But officially, no one truly knows if she’s been contacted to appear in SNW or the Kelvin films at all.

With due respect, I appreciate you have it all worked out but the math isn't lining up for me.

Well, sorry it isn't for you. It doesn't mean the math is wrong.

ENT was at the tail end of an era and the numbers demonstrate a downward trend.

That can happen when a show is inconsistently advertised and is moved to Friday nights to finish its run, a night when most people go out on the town.

 

[Dukhat]

I provided evidence. You just didn’t like the evidence. Unless there was a falling out we are unaware of, I have no reason to change my viewpoint.

You provided no evidence. You even said that yourself.

I never said she said that. Its clear that despite being retired from acting, she’s open to reuniting with the ENT cast. That was her biggest role to date, so it makes sense. She didn’t have to come back for an interview for the ENT Blu Ray back in 2013, but she did. The proof of this is on, IDK, the Star Trek website! Reuniting The NX-01 Crew (startrek.com)

This is not evidence. This is speculation, based on a flimsy premise.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, sorry it isn't for you. It doesn't mean the math is wrong.

It's pure speculation. As evidence goes it's about as substantial as all those customers who came in to the store I worked at and swore up and down they would buy something if only I got it in.

About 75% rate of them not buying it.

So, yeah, color me very skeptical.

That can happen when a show is inconsistently advertised and is moved to Friday nights to finish its run, a night when most people go out on the town.

So, CBS is to throw good money after bad?

 

[Richard S. Ta]

If you want to fit in, I can see why you might not have any interest in ENT. But I don’t really care about fitting in with the cool kids.

So even though I've stated multiple times I love Enterprise, a show I've so far written thousands of words about in my marathon, but now it's all about fitting in with the cool kids?

Here's a thing. None of the kids who like Star Trek are cool kids. Call that a stigma, or a perk, but it's not and has rarely been the cool thing to like in any of its forms.

A lot has been said recently about the scores being influenced by haters of whatever they are trying to attack but never been explained that I have seen.

There are cases of professional reviewers dropping feedback before they've seen something. Then there's right wing groups bombing scores. Captain Marvel knows all about that one.

It's just not a reliable metric to judge anything by.

 

[Sci]

Your argument suggests that discussions can only have one outcome.

My logic says no such thing. My logic merely says that being willing to do an interview is not evidence of willingness to reprise a starring role in a major television production. It is not evidence of unwillingness, either -- it is, simply, not an indication of anything either way.

Maybe after a 15 minute discussion of catching up, someone does not want to return to a restaurant to be a server. Or maybe they do because they are comfortable in the role and need the money. Or they refuse because they want to co-own the restaurant and manage it instead of going back to being a server. It all depends on what that person wants.

As I have said several times, if Blalock were to return to the role, it would be because she wants to, not because she needs the money. But again, willingness to do an interview is not evidence of willingness or unwillingness to reprise the role.

I provided evidence.

No, you did not. Willingness to do an interview is not evidence of willingness to reprise a starring role in a major television production.

I mean, there doesn't have to be hard feelings for someone to not want to go back to a job. I have no hard feelings about most of my previous places of employment, but that doesn't mean I want to go back.

Sigh.

Believe whatever you want. But someone who has hard feelings wouldn’t show up to interviews and again to Star Trek Day 2021.

Sure! I am not saying or insinuating that Blalock has hard feelings. I am saying, lack of hard feelings is not the same thing as a willingness to go back. Nor is it the same thing as unwillingness! But having or not having hard feelings is an entirely separate question from willingness to go back.

It’s the sign of someone wanting to leave such sentiments behind. I’ve been through something similar, so I can tell what’s happening. Signs are showing that she’s at the very least warming to Trek. But she hasn’t said anything if she likes the new era.

I think you're reading a lot into very few facts.

Actually, the only reason she took the T’Pol role to begin with was because her agent handed her the “Broken Bow” script and it changed her mind to accept the role. She initially wasn’t going to accept the role of T’Pol until she was given that script. Articles all the way back in 2002 explained as much.

If there were any ideas of trying to bring her back, a great script would be a great place to start.

I agree! And I would hope that a great script would be enough to convince her to come back in the event of this hypothetical ENT revival ever coming to pass. But we have no way of knowing if she ever would come back in such a scenario unless she makes a public statement about that hypothetical scenario or unless said scenario comes to pass.

Sounds to me like there's no reason to think anyone asked her back for SNW or the Kelvin Timeline films.

You don’t know that.

It is true -- I don't know that no one asked her to come back for SNW or the Kelvin films.

But nobody has presented any evidence that anyone did ask her to come back. In the absence of evidence that someone so asked her, there is no reason to think anyone so asked her. You can't just assume something happened without evidence of it happening just because you want it to be true.

That's why I said, "no reason to think" rather than, "She was definitely not asked." I don't know she was definitely not asked; I only know that there is at this time no reason to think so.

Its not like anyone is going to say anything if they have. It ruins the surprise in case there’s a plan to do so. But officially, no one truly knows if she’s been contacted to appear in SNW or the Kelvin films at all.

In other words, there is no evidence that she has been asked back and therefore we have no reason to think she has been asked back.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

I love Enterprise, I really do. But let's not pretend that it has a large section of the Star Trek fanbase clamouring for its' return. Maybe @HopefulRomantic can fill us in, but I'm pretty certain given the amount of activity in here that this is one of the quietest sections of the forum. Compare the Strange New Worlds forum which has a lot of chat and active topics that spring up daily.

The Enterprise forum during the run of the show was an utter madhouse. World War IV. Filled to the brim every day with people who loved it, hated it, enthused and despised and argued, and regularly got into knockdown dragout fights necessitating separate threads for lovers and haters, and lots and lots of warnings.

For a series that did not have stellar ratings, Enterprise had a lot of very, very, very passionate people who could not stop picking apart the tiniest details and refusing to give in on even the smallest point.

Kind of like this thread, actually. Without the warnings. (So far. Remember -- post, not poster.) Gotta say, I haven't seen any new info in this thread for at least 3 pages.

I will, however, concede that I spoke inaccurately when I said ENT is the most obscure ST show. TAS remains the most obscure ST show. ENT is the second most obscure.

That should be our new motto for the forum! "Not quite the most obscure one."

But ENT is the only one that survived the Kelvin timeline, bwahaha. Immortality comes in many forms.

They didn’t watch the first time because no one watched UPN, and only a handful of Trek viewers even received UPN. And then it got cancelled before it could be put onto CW which had a larger audience than UPN.

Yes, ENT does have the distinction of being the most disrespected flagship show of a tiny, terrible, wannabe failed network.

And by now, everyone one’s caught on that ENT’s theme song – both versions - was a factor in fans not tuning in or tuning out altogther...

Are you serious? Is this an actual thing? I have never heard of people using a theme song as a valid reason to not watch a show. Like, they couldn't say, "I had homework"..."I had to wash my hair"...?

So even though I've stated multiple times I love Enterprise, a show I've so far written thousands of words about in my marathon, but now it's all about fitting in with the cool kids?

Here's a thing. None of the kids who like Star Trek are cool kids. Call that a stigma, or a perk, but it's not and has rarely been the cool thing to like in any of its forms.

This. From the time I found TOS in reruns, way before TMP, to 2004 when I joined the online Trek community, I was the only person I knew who was a Star Trek fan. When I tell a normal person I'm a Star Trek forum moderator, they still look at me funny.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Y’all done now? I’m not reading or responding to all of that.

 

[fireproof78]

Here's a thing. None of the kids who like Star Trek are cool kids. Call that a stigma, or a perk, but it's not and has rarely been the cool thing to like in any of its forms.

What I tend to see it treated as kind of stigma, but not just among nonfans but fans too. Like we have to be more aggressive in our love because people didn't like Star Trek...

,,,or something.

This. From the time I found TOS in reruns, way before TMP, to 2004 when I joined the online Trek community, I was the only person I knew who was a Star Trek fan. When I tell a normal person I'm a Star Trek forum moderator, they still look at me funny.

Even among Star Trek fans I was considered odd

 

[BillJ]

Y’all done now? I’m not reading or responding to all of that.

Facts do tend to take the wind out of the sails of a lot of arguments...

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Y’all done now? I’m not reading or responding to all of that.

Because nobody agrees with you?

 

[Dukhat]

I think the extent of any ENT sequel will be DSC and SNW.

 

[Ferengi Prime 5]

Enterprise failed to get seven seasons because it was a warmongering and political show about the creation of the United Federation of Planets... They never told the Star Trek fans so it catches them off guard the Enterprise leave a ship stranded in space and allows a Vulcan ship perish and other none Star Fleet behaviors... The ship was never exploring which is fine... We all should have been told from the start. The Enterprise was the story about the creation of the United Federation of Planets and get rid of that song being sung in the opening credits, just music... and 7 seven season would have been had... People had the wrong expectations when Enterprise was aired...

 

[Dukhat]

Enterprise failed to get seven seasons because it was a warmongering and political show about the creation of the United Federation of Planets... They never told the Star Trek fans so it catches them off guard the Enterprise leave a ship stranded in space and allows a Vulcan ship perish and other none Star Fleet behaviors... The ship was never exploring which is fine... We all should have been told from the start. The Enterprise was the story about the creation of the United Federation of Planets and get rid of that song being sung in the opening credits, just music... and 7 seven season would have been had... People had the wrong expectations when Enterprise was aired...

None of that was why ENT failed.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I suspect the general audience was fine with the theme song. I don’t think changing it would have been the key to seven seasons.

 

[Ferengi Prime 5]

None of that was why ENT failed.

Enterprise was a dark show. Space was unfriendly a bad place with unfriendly aliens. It lack the hopefulness of exploration of other Start Trek shows. It should have ran with the founding of the Federations and how Starfleet and the Federation tamed space...

 

[Dukhat]

Enterprise was a dark show. Space was unfriendly a bad place with unfriendly aliens. It lack the hopefulness of exploration of other Start Trek shows. It should have ran with the founding of the Federations and how Starfleet and the Federation tamed space...

Again, none of that was why the show failed. ENT failed because it was a very expensive show to produce but made little money for the studio. If it was a ratings powerhouse, it would have lasted seven seasons.